The Sheer Immorality of the Beast
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Join Date: Mar 2017
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The Sheer Immorality of the Beast
Let me start by saying I am not looking for support or sympathy, AVRT is not designed for that, it's designed to inform people how to stop drinking.
The immorality of the Beast is what I want to post about. As I have said before, my wife is dying, now my mother is undergoing tests for abnormal lymph nodes, she is terrified beyond belief, it's not nice to see her so distressed and not be able to help.
You know what my Beast says? "Look, everyone around you is getting sick, we all die in the end, soon you will be left with no one, after watching everyone suffer horribly, can you really stand there with no "help" from wonder chemical alcohol to get you through this?"
I only had this thought for a second. But it struck me, the depth of selfishness in this thought.
I chose to stop drinking to regain entry into life, to stop hurting people, to stop hurting myself.
Life is hard, maybe some peoples lives aren't..but I know no one who has sailed comfortably through it, all happiness.
The fact that for years, these two women stood by me, worried about me, grieved over me and my Beast would think nothing of their sacrifices and suffering over me but would have me bail out on them disgusts me.
The immorality of the Beast is what I want to post about. As I have said before, my wife is dying, now my mother is undergoing tests for abnormal lymph nodes, she is terrified beyond belief, it's not nice to see her so distressed and not be able to help.
You know what my Beast says? "Look, everyone around you is getting sick, we all die in the end, soon you will be left with no one, after watching everyone suffer horribly, can you really stand there with no "help" from wonder chemical alcohol to get you through this?"
I only had this thought for a second. But it struck me, the depth of selfishness in this thought.
I chose to stop drinking to regain entry into life, to stop hurting people, to stop hurting myself.
Life is hard, maybe some peoples lives aren't..but I know no one who has sailed comfortably through it, all happiness.
The fact that for years, these two women stood by me, worried about me, grieved over me and my Beast would think nothing of their sacrifices and suffering over me but would have me bail out on them disgusts me.
grouphug:
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Join Date: Apr 2016
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I am so sorry Gary - the beast is a selfish, vile creature who only cares about himself. I look at how long I allowed IT to consume me. All of the pure selfish, evil things that I allowed IT to do in my life. All of the worry, panic, disgust, frustration I allowed IT to cause my family
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Yes Behappy..you have nailed it..I allowed IT.
IT being my wanting to be out of the turmoil of life.
Even though it caused grief and turmoil in others lives.
I used to think, I'm an ok person as long as I don't drink.
But every single time I had that first drink, I was stone cold myself...I thought...I since think, I was lead by IT, the misguided survival drive
I chose to take that first drink. Without being under the influence of alcohol.
THAT in my mind is the immorality of IT.
I followed what the Beast wanted, the pleasure of it, over everyone and everything that really mattered to me.
I was not sick, I did not have a disease, I was selfish to the core for taking a drink in the first place when I knew I could not handle it, and other people would suffer if I did.
AVRT ..spoke to me the truth, when I came across it, because I knew, I could control this thing if I wanted to, if I stopped being a wimp and looking for an escape from life.
Don't get me wrong. my life has not been total misery. there have been happy times, but usually I have been too out of it to enjoy them.
IT being my wanting to be out of the turmoil of life.
Even though it caused grief and turmoil in others lives.
I used to think, I'm an ok person as long as I don't drink.
But every single time I had that first drink, I was stone cold myself...I thought...I since think, I was lead by IT, the misguided survival drive
I chose to take that first drink. Without being under the influence of alcohol.
THAT in my mind is the immorality of IT.
I followed what the Beast wanted, the pleasure of it, over everyone and everything that really mattered to me.
I was not sick, I did not have a disease, I was selfish to the core for taking a drink in the first place when I knew I could not handle it, and other people would suffer if I did.
AVRT ..spoke to me the truth, when I came across it, because I knew, I could control this thing if I wanted to, if I stopped being a wimp and looking for an escape from life.
Don't get me wrong. my life has not been total misery. there have been happy times, but usually I have been too out of it to enjoy them.
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,109
It's terrible how IT would exploit your wife's cancer and you mother's health scare to get IT's next fix. I'm really sorry about your wife Gary, f*ck cancer. Addiction is a selfish thing and I'm glad that you found AVRT so you don't have to live that way anymore.
I was a selfish person when I drank too and put IT's desire to get drunk over the needs of the people I love. Sorry doesn't really cut it, there's no taking it back, I just have to own it and do the right thing now.
My best to you and your wife. I hope the tests go well for your mom.
I was a selfish person when I drank too and put IT's desire to get drunk over the needs of the people I love. Sorry doesn't really cut it, there's no taking it back, I just have to own it and do the right thing now.
My best to you and your wife. I hope the tests go well for your mom.
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Join Date: Feb 2016
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Gary, I completely agree with Behappy (you really did nail IT) - I too chose to follow the Beast, the misdirected survival drive and ITs desire for a first drink (and then of course, the next and the next and so on) over what I knew was the right choice - NOT to drink.
I'm deeply ashamed of my behaviour, whilst drinking bottles and bottles of wine every day for years. When drinking I was reduced to the level of the Beast (lower brain) irrational, illogical, unthinking, uncaring, unfocused, selfish, mean, nasty: I was the opposite of my real self (higher brain) which is rational, logical, kind, caring, focused.
Yet, all the time I drank, with dire consequences and repercussions, I was never 'in denial' I ALWAYS knew I shouldn't pick up that drink. It always went against my inner wisdom, but I believed I couldn't help it, I had a disease, alcoholism., so I wasn't to blame for drinking - it was learned helplessness.
Thank SR and the powers that be and the good folks here in Secular Connections, that I finally, finally realised that in fact, I wasn't powerless and didn't have a disease. I don't want to be controversial, so I'll add that, even if I did have the disease of alcoholism, it was in my power to arrest it, forever!
As a human being I send huge virtual hugs to you, Gary, your wife and your mother
. I HATE cancer, now thats a disease. I simply can't imagine how you feel. But because you've learnt AVRT, you are being the very best husband for your wife, your higher brain true self, not the automatic, habit forming lower brain, where the Beast resides with ITs habituated desire for alcohol.
I do hope that your mother receives positive test results.
I'm deeply ashamed of my behaviour, whilst drinking bottles and bottles of wine every day for years. When drinking I was reduced to the level of the Beast (lower brain) irrational, illogical, unthinking, uncaring, unfocused, selfish, mean, nasty: I was the opposite of my real self (higher brain) which is rational, logical, kind, caring, focused.
Yet, all the time I drank, with dire consequences and repercussions, I was never 'in denial' I ALWAYS knew I shouldn't pick up that drink. It always went against my inner wisdom, but I believed I couldn't help it, I had a disease, alcoholism., so I wasn't to blame for drinking - it was learned helplessness.
Thank SR and the powers that be and the good folks here in Secular Connections, that I finally, finally realised that in fact, I wasn't powerless and didn't have a disease. I don't want to be controversial, so I'll add that, even if I did have the disease of alcoholism, it was in my power to arrest it, forever!
As a human being I send huge virtual hugs to you, Gary, your wife and your mother
. I HATE cancer, now thats a disease. I simply can't imagine how you feel. But because you've learnt AVRT, you are being the very best husband for your wife, your higher brain true self, not the automatic, habit forming lower brain, where the Beast resides with ITs habituated desire for alcohol.I do hope that your mother receives positive test results.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
This may be a simplistic answer, Fini, but for me at least, my understanding is that is so because that is how the Beast is defined - that's what it is, that messed up survival drive that simply must have that drink. And the thoughts of drinking, regardless of consequence, are AV.
How do I see IT as separate from me? They are separate because I made that considered covenant for permanent and unconditional sobriety, a Big Plan. The act of making this covenant provides a means of understanding a separation. OK, it creates a separation? Maybe 'permits' is closer to my understanding. There isn't a separation until a bp is made.
How does this seem to you, fini?
How do I see IT as separate from me? They are separate because I made that considered covenant for permanent and unconditional sobriety, a Big Plan. The act of making this covenant provides a means of understanding a separation. OK, it creates a separation? Maybe 'permits' is closer to my understanding. There isn't a separation until a bp is made.
How does this seem to you, fini?
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this is, for me, where it gets entirely illogical.
when i hear here repeatedly that IT has no power, IT is WANT but you are the actioner in fulfilling the want, then saying you were led by IT, though you chose ( i cannot right now paste and copy on this silly old ipad, or i would paste Gary's exact phrasing)........either you freely choose or you are led, or your choice is choice but not really free choice.....in which case YOU are not in charge.
Or maybe in the OP the separation is incomplete?
the immorality, if there is any (and that is something i felt, in my drinking) is in choosing , allowing to be led, and not in IT. iT has no morals, or lack. It is a drive.
but i will freely admit i have no good understanding of AVRT, and my question pertains to what seems contradictory to what i usually seem to hear here.
do you see where i'm not able to follow? and why?
when i hear here repeatedly that IT has no power, IT is WANT but you are the actioner in fulfilling the want, then saying you were led by IT, though you chose ( i cannot right now paste and copy on this silly old ipad, or i would paste Gary's exact phrasing)........either you freely choose or you are led, or your choice is choice but not really free choice.....in which case YOU are not in charge.
Or maybe in the OP the separation is incomplete?
the immorality, if there is any (and that is something i felt, in my drinking) is in choosing , allowing to be led, and not in IT. iT has no morals, or lack. It is a drive.
but i will freely admit i have no good understanding of AVRT, and my question pertains to what seems contradictory to what i usually seem to hear here.
do you see where i'm not able to follow? and why?
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,937
There are no words to express how sorry I am about the health of your loved ones. It's a terrible feeling to see the ones you love suffer with no way to help them. As trite as it sounds the best thing you can do now is to be present for them in every way humanly possible. That requires being sober.
I am glad you've decided to stick around, Gary.
I am glad you've decided to stick around, Gary.
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: London, England
Posts: 7,057
Hi Gary.
That is the nature of the beast as they say.
On the flip side it sounds like you have been lucky enough to have had two wonderful ladies looking out for you for years and now is your time to take care of them.
Stay Strong and keep that beast away.
That is the nature of the beast as they say.
On the flip side it sounds like you have been lucky enough to have had two wonderful ladies looking out for you for years and now is your time to take care of them.
Stay Strong and keep that beast away.
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 98
Thank you Kaily and MOS and Tatsy..I do indeed count myself very lucky to have these women in my life. I feel real sorrow over what I have put them through, but they are very upbeat lovely forgiving women, for which I feel very grateful. My Beast at one time, when IT had a voice, thought them terminal nags lol, pests to be swatted down, thank god I saw that IT was the terminal nag.
fini, you are right, IT is a drive, nothing more nothing less, a powerful drive. The immorality is not in the drive itself, it is in following the drive. I do not care what anyone says, we all know it is wrong to ingest alcohol when we know where it will lead. The immorality does not start with the nasty things we do when drunk, it starts with the choosing to get drunk in the first place.
The fact that it is as powerful as a legitimate survival drive proves ITs strength, we have to use all of our strength as a moral, thinking, feeling human being not to be "lead" by this drive.
I do not believe "alcoholics" (hate that collective stigmatization) have different morals from everyone else, I just think that the drive, they themselves helped create by drinking too much, too often, they let overtake them
fini, you are right, IT is a drive, nothing more nothing less, a powerful drive. The immorality is not in the drive itself, it is in following the drive. I do not care what anyone says, we all know it is wrong to ingest alcohol when we know where it will lead. The immorality does not start with the nasty things we do when drunk, it starts with the choosing to get drunk in the first place.
The fact that it is as powerful as a legitimate survival drive proves ITs strength, we have to use all of our strength as a moral, thinking, feeling human being not to be "lead" by this drive.
I do not believe "alcoholics" (hate that collective stigmatization) have different morals from everyone else, I just think that the drive, they themselves helped create by drinking too much, too often, they let overtake them
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Join Date: Feb 2016
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Fini, before I made my Big Plan, I spent countless hours reading about AVRT, on the back of year upon year in recovery groups, and many years learning about the mechanism of addiction and the brain, CBT, REBT etc., all to no avail.
AVRT stuck an internal deep seated chord. I attempted to stop drinking for over twenty years - so there was a part of me that wanted to stop - yet clearly a part that didn't want to stop, because I still drank.
I believe the internal chord struck, was my conscience, wisdom, true-self, as they related to morality. I reflected on all negative impacts upon my life and others, of my continued drinking, and finally reached the conclusion that it was wrong behaviour to continue drinking.
Therefore, when I made my Big Plan, not drinking became part of my own personal moral code. Anything that tried to encourage me to breach that moral code (thoughts, feelings, imagery, cravings, urges etc.) were immediately identified as the Beast's AV, and not ME with my BP and permanent non-drinking status. I suppose, if me and my BP are my determined moral code - then the Beast and ITs AV are immoral: but as you state, that's not true, because the Beast is a metaphor for that part of my brain that has become a drive for alcohol, an automatic, habituated part with no morality, logic or reasoning. Evidenced by the fact that, unchecked or stopped, it would've led me to drink myself to death.
The beauty of this technique, is that effectively it doesn't only place the power to recognise and dismiss AV, firmly in my hands (neo-cortex) but also into the hands of my moral conscience. Now that I don't intoxicate myself, I believe my moral conscience is on automatic duty no matter what, no matter how depleted my neo-cortex may be due to HALT - there stands my automatic moral conscience, as a sentinel to the arising AV. It's quite ingenious, I have self-will and conscience and thereby all the power - whereas the Beast has no power, whatsoever, all IT can do is bark away, inconsequentially.
By making a BP, I added not drinking alcohol to my moral code, along with the pre-existing behaviours which I never engage in.
Although AVRT is simple, it's not easy in so far that, for it to be effective and permanent (my Big Plan) I had to decide to stop drinking, forever, no ifs, buts, possibilities, conditions, contingencies, slips or relapses. No more drinking - that was a crazy, scary idea, despite everything I'd lost to drink. That was the hard part. Once drinking was off the table forever, post BP, recognising and immediately dismissing the AV, was easy.
AVRT stuck an internal deep seated chord. I attempted to stop drinking for over twenty years - so there was a part of me that wanted to stop - yet clearly a part that didn't want to stop, because I still drank.
I believe the internal chord struck, was my conscience, wisdom, true-self, as they related to morality. I reflected on all negative impacts upon my life and others, of my continued drinking, and finally reached the conclusion that it was wrong behaviour to continue drinking.
Therefore, when I made my Big Plan, not drinking became part of my own personal moral code. Anything that tried to encourage me to breach that moral code (thoughts, feelings, imagery, cravings, urges etc.) were immediately identified as the Beast's AV, and not ME with my BP and permanent non-drinking status. I suppose, if me and my BP are my determined moral code - then the Beast and ITs AV are immoral: but as you state, that's not true, because the Beast is a metaphor for that part of my brain that has become a drive for alcohol, an automatic, habituated part with no morality, logic or reasoning. Evidenced by the fact that, unchecked or stopped, it would've led me to drink myself to death.
The beauty of this technique, is that effectively it doesn't only place the power to recognise and dismiss AV, firmly in my hands (neo-cortex) but also into the hands of my moral conscience. Now that I don't intoxicate myself, I believe my moral conscience is on automatic duty no matter what, no matter how depleted my neo-cortex may be due to HALT - there stands my automatic moral conscience, as a sentinel to the arising AV. It's quite ingenious, I have self-will and conscience and thereby all the power - whereas the Beast has no power, whatsoever, all IT can do is bark away, inconsequentially.
By making a BP, I added not drinking alcohol to my moral code, along with the pre-existing behaviours which I never engage in.
Although AVRT is simple, it's not easy in so far that, for it to be effective and permanent (my Big Plan) I had to decide to stop drinking, forever, no ifs, buts, possibilities, conditions, contingencies, slips or relapses. No more drinking - that was a crazy, scary idea, despite everything I'd lost to drink. That was the hard part. Once drinking was off the table forever, post BP, recognising and immediately dismissing the AV, was easy.
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thanks, Gary and Tatsy. i couldn't "get" why you'd ascribe immorality to "the Beast".
and no, i do not believe alcoholics have different morals as such, though mine got subsumed into not acting on them when drinking. of course.
and no, i do not believe alcoholics have different morals as such, though mine got subsumed into not acting on them when drinking. of course.
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 98
Yeah actually I did title that wrong. The Beast is not immoral, IT just is.
Going along with IT is immoral.
You cannot hide behind a disease , which "makes" you drink.
All of us, at the core, know fine well we have a choice.
As long as we all employ that we don't have a choice we are going to get nowhere.
Going along with IT is immoral.
You cannot hide behind a disease , which "makes" you drink.
All of us, at the core, know fine well we have a choice.
As long as we all employ that we don't have a choice we are going to get nowhere.
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That was a bit weird
-best of wishes to you, fini.
Sometimes I wonder, when things get petty on SR, if there are more lurkers than posters. Some that are investigating whether this is doable. Who are then turned away from something valuable after reading snippy stuff...
-best of wishes to you, fini.
Sometimes I wonder, when things get petty on SR, if there are more lurkers than posters. Some that are investigating whether this is doable. Who are then turned away from something valuable after reading snippy stuff...
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i have found it difficult to have a discussion here with questions where there is just exchange, and clarification, and questions are understood as asking for thoughts/opinions/information only, and not seen as somehow an attack.
anyway, that is equally true, i suspect, for other posters who go to other forums and run into defensiveness from those ardently convinced of the obviousness and total merit of their path.
i am an inquisitive person, like to ask and ruminate about concepts, like to understand how others see what seems contradictory, and like to engage in conversation about it.
i miss that.
anyway, that is equally true, i suspect, for other posters who go to other forums and run into defensiveness from those ardently convinced of the obviousness and total merit of their path.
i am an inquisitive person, like to ask and ruminate about concepts, like to understand how others see what seems contradictory, and like to engage in conversation about it.
i miss that.
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