Fusion

Hi Fini, whoops, I said I wouldn't enter into discourse...but no, your posts were not tough for me, whatsover. I didn't realise that my Beast was reacting with your Beast, until GerandTwine posted! I had no issues or problems with my permanent abstinence, but I realised my diction was failing and I didn't recognise my AV. But GT caught the diction and I remain, free and joyous and happy.

Your posts just made my wee little pathetic Beast, rattle its permanent cage, it was a good excercise, at nine months sober, but it might as well be nine years. I wholeheartedly know that I'm free from drinking ever again; I hope you are too. In fact, the only time IT raises its head via the AV is, ironically, when I'm reading SR!

I'm absolutely loving my new life, alcohol free, it's incredibly awesome, I've turned into a human dynamo and all those plans I made years ago, which never came to fruition....are happening now! Would you believe I'll soon have a horse for the first time in two decades...I can't, but it's happening, all because of AVRT, plus, decorating my house and cultivating the land and training my dogs, it's a new lease of life! I just wish I could turn back the clock and regain those lost decades.

soberlicious

What are the other definitions?

JeffreyAK

I like this one, from the US NIH/NIDA:

"Addiction is defined as a chronic, relapsing brain disease that is characterized by compulsive drug seeking and use, despite harmful consequences. It is considered a brain disease because drugs change the brain; they change its structure and how it works. These brain changes can be long lasting and can lead to many harmful, often self-destructive, behaviors"

One could quibble about the word "disease", I'd prefer "condition" or something less controversial.

soberlicious

Here is the definition of the word ambivalence:
1.uncertainty or fluctuation, especially when caused by inability to make a choice or by a simultaneous desire to say or do two opposite or conflicting things.
2.Psychology. the coexistence within an individual of positive and negative feelings toward the same person, object, or action, simultaneously drawing him or her in opposite directions.

Here is your definition of addiction (bolding mine):
Addiction is defined as a chronic, relapsing brain disease that is characterized by compulsive drug seeking and use, despite harmful consequences.

Compulsion means an irresistible urge to behave in a certain way, especially against one's conscious wishes.

Doesn't sound all that different to me.

JeffreyAK

An occasional drinker can be ambivalent about drinking, though, and not be an addict - in fact I think most normal/occasional drinkers are. That's why I like the NIH definition, it's pretty unambiguous.

soberlicious

You think most normal/occasional drinkers are conflicted about their drinking?

freshstart57

If any drinker says, I probably shouldn't be doing this, and then goes ahead and drinks, especially when bad consequences result, then I would suggest there is an element of addiction present. Ambivalence ----> addiction.

JeffreyAK

No, but that's not what ambivalent means, per Websters,
: having or showing simultaneous and contradictory attitudes or feelings toward something or someone

That's what take it or leave it means, to me. Normal/occasional drinkers don't obsess or drink compulsively, though they can be ambivalent about drinking, and like aspects of it and dislike others.

But you're free to prefer whatever definition you like, as am I - which is why I said I like the NIH definition, rather than insist that it's *the* definition.

I'm not sure why it seems like some people in this thread want to argue about stuff.

dwtbd

Chronic describes the 'usual' duration. In medical terminology chronic refers to a condition's duration from between three months to life long.
Addictions may be chronic, but addiction need not be chronic. Apparently AVs edit medical publications

fini

oh, soberlicious, that's what dictionaries are for.
there are many, so many.
we could discuss forever, but i'm not into going there.
Suffice to say the one you present is one, and one only.

GerandTwine

Might as well give the AVRT definition of "addiction" for consistency of the thread. As I understand it "addiction" happens when a person transitions from being simply "chemical dependent" to finally deciding/realizing that it would be morally reprehensible for them to EVER AGAIN drink/drug. The key here is the EVER AGAIN and the birth of the utility of the Big Plan; I will NEVER drink/drug again. Actually it's pretty simple definitional stuff.

Addiction is that unstable condition between chemical dependence and permanent abstinence. In many people it is a fairly short-lived period. The whole Recovery Group Movement is a form of addiction.

dwtbd

AP
Addiction prolongment

Fusion

[QUOTETatsy] So if one part of your brain wants a drink and another part of your brain doesn't want a drink - that's addiction. So there is a choice, do I follow the pro-drink or the anti-drink brain. [/I]

[QUOTEfini] i understand that not as "addiction", but as what Robby used to call "addiction ambivalence. and that is where the addiction itself impairs the normal, reasonable, obvious choice mechanism.[/QUOTE]

Oh Fini, you're not understanding, what Robby wrote as 'addiction ambivalence' if you read back on his posts.....it's when a person has stopped drinking, via AA or whatever, one day at a time, thereby choosing to keep the door open on drinking in the future. Robby said that when you decide to never drink again, and never change your mind....then that's when the addiction ambivalence ends. Period.

The addiction ambivalence is only present, without a Big Plan. As you've previously stated in this thread, you've no intention to make a Big Plan....so in accordance with Robby's wisdom, you HAVE 'addiction ambivalence', despite the fact you're not drinking. There is NO 'addiction ambivalence' once an AVRT Big Plan is made, or any other plan, to never drink again.

So Fini, isn't it time you made a Big Plan and said 'never again' and thereby removed the 'addiction ambilvalence'? As I read back on Robby's posts today, you also featured many years ago and seem to have been putting off the logical, rational decision, to never drink again and never change your mind. Hope this helps.

fini

Tatsy,

you might be right, and i might have entirely misunderstood Robby all along.
and i might be very much in addiction ambivalence without knowing anything about it.

isn't it time i made a BP?
no, Tatsy, it is not.
I said never-again many times, and it proved insufficient.
but rest assured, i said it this time, too, and most definitely the plan is to never drink again.
i am assuming that you are really trying to help me, though i do tend to read the last post as coming from a perspective of knowing better what i ought to be doing, or at least would greatly benefit from.
so i thank you for good intention, and tell you i'm fine. and it's great you're so enthusiastically sharing the method you have found works well for you.

GaryB1

Sorry, when I posted this thread..I meant the Sheer Immorality of going along with the Beast. Drinking in the first place as an immoral act.

Steely

I miss constructive dialogue too fini. Too reactionary for me, just stumbled here, out of interest.

Mainly though, I am so sorry Gary about the losses you are suffering and impressed no end by your not drinking, whatever method you might choose.

GaryB1

Thank you Steely

I now simply see, through AVRT, the act of going along with a Beast urge as an immoral act in itself. I used to make excuses about my behaviour, when drunk and try to convince everyone, "yes I'm an ******** when I drink, but I'm not that person really" Well, I was not under the influence of drink, when I decided to have the first one every time, but I was being an ******** by doing it when I knew the trouble it would doubtless cause, I just put the needs of my Beast and self-pleasure first
I wasn't helpless against urges, if I was, I wouldn't have been able to resist any urge I had had to drink, and I did resist, lots of times, just other times I chose to give in.
I am not getting into arguing with peoples Beasts here, we all know it is wrong to intoxicate ourselves at the expense of others. We all know the pain it causes people who love us. If anyone comes back with any excuses why this is not wrong, or how they "cannot help doing it" tell your Beast, I will not argue that point, on this board, as I do not engage with Beasts, full stop.

Steely

Thank you Gary. I came back here to say that I shouldn't have engaged at any level on people's choices on how they might remain sober. Sober, is sober, is sober.

I just felt that the discussion moved from your terrible losses into theoretical debate, and it made me sad.

I wish you ten times what you wish wish for yourself and that these times will be kind to you. I am so sorry.

GaryB1

Thats ok Steely, I didn't mind that, I wanted to get across (not very successfully lol) that just because there is sadness and other hard stuff going on in life, there is no need to crumble into using it as an excuse to drink. These are the very times we need to be here in our right minds. These are the very times to rely on our morality and doing what is right by other people.
I won't speak for anyone else here, but I know I let a lot of people down, broke their hearts over and over due to my persuit of pleasure. Now is the time to try and redeem myself.
This is posted about an AVRT principle. A basic one

Fusion

Fini, that's great news!

Thank you. I certainly don't know better than you or anyone else, I only know what worked for me and suggest it as an option for others, who may have unsuccessfully tried for years, as I did, prior to learning AVRT.

I wrote to you because you posted on this AVRT related thread and I believed that your questions arose from your wish to ire-investigate the concept, because during my learning phase on SR I recalled coming across your name in the AVRT threads. Therefore I tried to respond in order to assist you. I'm glad to hear you're fine and that you'll never drink again!