Wholesome

Sorry I'm not trying to hijack this thread. I had been drinking when I came on here the other night and was reaching out for help because I hate that I drink and what it does to me. It changes my personality and makes me sad and depressed and sorry for myself. Stupid way to spend my Friday night.... getting drunk and coming on a recovery site and crying about how pathetic I feel. I'm embarrassed. The drinking is the problem not the solution for my malaise and I'm going to kick it.

dwtbd

zenchaser
Perhaps it's time to take a different tack. If you make a Big Plan today, right this minute, you can shut the AV down, full stop.
That doesn't mean the Beast( the desire for alcohol) stops existing, IT will most certainly speak to you through the AV and continually offer alcohol as the solution to everythig.

The BP is the moment in time when all that no longer matters. Drinking has ended for good, full stop.

The AV is put on notice that the Beast has been relegated to a locked cage and IT will have to suffer the loss of ITs precious fuel, forever. The AV is put on notice that the idea of searching for the 'right' way to recovery , ITs plan to keep the precious fuel coming has been seen as the camouflaged( and devious) scheme that it is(was).

Quit . Announce to yourself that you have achieved recovery, you have recovered. Continuing to drink is not the solution for anything, you have stated this , yeah ?
Quit and start to work on the things that will be solutions , perhaps even professional help ie therapists or doctors. Taking away the Beast's fuel and relieving yourself of the consequences of drinking( physical, emotional, and spiritual consequences) will go a long way in helping yourself to seeing a better way to those solutions and free yourself to achieve them.

The AV will always claim the 'solution' is an invention 'out there, somewhere' and you have to 'find' it. IT lies, the solution , the stuff to do it is in you , you already have it in you to do it. Quit , right now, and believe it.

Life is a journey, recovery is an event. (imho, )

Wholesome

Yeah I made my BP yesterday morning. I won't keep living like this. It is intolerable to me. I am going to set up some counselling through my works member assistance program to start addressing some of the other problems but the drinking is over. For good. It doesn't agree with me and even a little bit has an immediate negative effect on my mind. Onward!

MicroMacro

"The AV that creeps into your head and stays there for the 15 minute drive solely to buy liquor. How do you stop that?"

I tell it to shut the **** up and get out of my head. I get angry with it because listening to it has never once served me well.

"I do ok and can firmly say I will NEVER drink again, but relapse after relapse after relapse proves differently."

I used to say that I was a chronic relapser. Then one day a decade after my first attempt to stop drinking, I realized that in all that time, I'd only really relapsed once when I'd managed to stay sober one week shy of a year. All the other times - I hadn't quit - I'd paused.

"Five days ago I was 100% certain I'd never drink again. Now I don't trust myself."

I had to replace drinking with something else. Something that would require my time and attention on a daily basis. Meetings and whatnot weren't enough for me. So - I decided to go to school to become a certified life coach.

What could you replace drinking with?



Best!

dwtbd

The only thing worth doing with drinking is eradicating it. Remove it completely from your life, cease and desist. Replacing it connotes a place holding, as in if any place holders are removed a space reopens and drinking is a viable candidate as a 'hole stuffer'.
I think I appreciate the sentiment? Along the lines of free yourself from the drudgery of addiction and use your new found freedom( and time) in healhier and happier pursuits, yeah?
It's just that the AV listens and place shifting feels like a way to temporarily shuffle the deck and perhaps replay some old cards if 'need' be.
Replace drinking with not drinking and live your life

Fusion

MicroMacro, is your post an advert in your life coach persona? If not, I'm glad you've stopped drinking, all credit to you.

But in my experience, I didn't need to "decide what I could replace drinking with" and instead, I found permanent sobriety in doing what Dwtbd said above - I simply needed to " replace drinking with not drinking and live my life".

Algorithm

Your desire for the absence of AV conceals a plan to drink in the presence of AV. Besides, the AV won't go away just because you tell it to. Better to recognize it, and to save your energy for better things.

Wholesome

Reading this thread has been very helpful to me today. I used to think that I was doing something wrong because the thoughts wouldn't go away and it seemed like it was easier for some of you guys but now I see that you all have struggled with the AV just the same as I do.

How do you all handle the AV regarding events in the future? I have a wedding where I am the maid of honour, and a Jack and Jill at a bar, and a bachlorette party coming up in the next few months and despite making my BP just yesterday my AV has been active over it. It's not like I can't attend, I'm helping to plan these parties. These will be major drinking events with other big drinkers like myself..... some of my oldest and best drinking buddies. Even just writing this out my AV is having a field day! Like yeah maybe you'll take a few weeks off, but you'll never get through those nights sober. Pure AV I know that. You all must have encountered similar situations after quiting. What did you do? Do I just see it for what it is, my AV undermining my resolve?

Algorithm

This is a fantastic analysis as seen through the lens of AVRT, if I may say so, dwtbd. The Beast was born of drink itself, and thus has a spiritual problem, which requires strong spirits to correct. It lives to drink, and nothing will fill the hole in ITS soul left by the removal of that life-giving alcohol.

Algorithm

This is the big lie out there -- that thoughts of drinking are of themselves 'bad', and that if you have such thoughts, that you are somehow doing something wrong.

This is Addictive Voice, because the desire for the absence of desire in order to abstain is just a plan to drink in the presence of desire.

Other big drinkers like yourself? That's the Beast talking, so recognize that as AV. If you never drink, you can't possibly be a 'big drinker', can you?

The AV is trying to say that you are your Beast, and imposing its own identity on you. The Beast is the 'big drinker'.

The Beast also likes to use the notion of time and now vs. then against you. It will say "sure, you can say you won't drink now, but I'll get you then."

It's always 'now' though, and when 'then' actually comes, it will still be now. You can meet the Beast on it's own turf, and adopt linear time.

I never drink = I never drink now = I never drink in the present moment.

Set your confidence level arbitrarily at 100%, and recognize all self-doubt about perfect abstinence as the AV itself, since it suggests more drinking.

MesaMan

.
Zenchaser ~

I mentally work through and store Alt Scenarios. I plan my 'Escape', so to speak, in order to not be trapped - unaware - and be a sort of pawn to Circumstance. This is just how I roll. I chalk this up to Genetics, and Sober Living/Practice. Thanks to the Minds @ SR for these tips, like the fine ideas up-Thread here.

I've got a Wedding/Reception out in the future. A Pal's Kid is getting Married. Gonna be a Big Deal of an Event. I'll be staying locally near this Event, but will drive/Cab it separately. My Wife of 40 Years can stay or leave. Her call; quite her separate Response to how I'll handle things. She already knows this. It's not negotiable. Things are actually quite simple within this pre-established framework. This is how Sober People live, IMO.

One Technique suggested here by others is to stay for the Wedding and ~1/2 Hour of the Reception. Then, bolt. That's my Plan #1. If I'm in the mood, I'll stay longer; if it's not Teeth-grinding *work*. In any case, I won't be trapped. The AV can say what it wants. That's all a non-event to me by now, having >3 Years of Sober 'Practice' at coping in a Drinking Culture under my Belt. As a 'Ben & Jerry's' Ice Cream Bumper Sticker says: 'If It's Not Fun, Why Do It'? Being stuck around Drunks is decidedly not fun. Personal Resolve deflates confrontation.

Sobriety First. All other Life Considerations, including possible ruffled Feathers? A very distant second...
.

Wholesome

That's some solid advice MesaMan! Always have an escape plan for if things get too intense. I like that and I can totally make that work. Thanks!

Nonsensical

This thread is a good read.
I was on a road trip to a wedding with Mrs Nons recently and she pulled up some podcasts from NPR's Invisibilia. I believe it was the very first ever Invisbilia podcast that dealt with this topic. It was about a man who couldn't get thoughts of doing horrible violent things out of his head, and he became very depressed because he was sure it meant that deep down he was a horrible violent person.

He finally found relief with a therapist who was able to demonstrate that he was not a horrible violent person. He was obsessive. He found these horrible violent thoughts to be VERY horrible, and it made him obsess over them. It wasn't the cause of the thoughts that was important, it was his obsessing over them that was the root of his problems.

I couldn't help but relate to this in terms of my AV. It generates thoughts (feelings, really) about drinking (of course!) That was never really the problem, though. The problem was ME obsessing over those feelings.

In the Invisibilia piece the therapist actually had the patient hold a knife to the therapist's throat. Shocking, right? But the therapist wanted to demonstrate that even given the unobstructed opportunity to be horribly violent, the patient would choose not to be horribly violent.

As I sat sipping my coffee, iced tea, and ginger ale at the reception and then the after-reception party...passing wine across the table to those who were drinking it...finding the last bottle of white because the hostess couldn't remember where she'd left it...listening to my beast make ridiculous suggestions...helping to clean up all the empties and half-full glasses after the amateur over-doers schlepped off to their rooms...pouring the leftovers down the sink and packing up what could be salvaged for someone to take home...I thought about that patient with the knife in his hands...and I smiled.

Invisibilia : NPR

AlaskaGirl

Great post Nonsensical!

Wholesome

Yeah Nonsensical it really is such a nice story and piece of wisdom. I like everything about it!

CelticZebra

Great thread with loads of useful stuff.
I've been living with lots of stress recently and just yesterday my AV popped up, around 3pm (school run time & when I used to drink to 'cope' with anxiety)
So I'm sitting here 24 hours ago, completely free from alcohol for over 3 year and the "sneaky beast AV suggests having a drink to make MYSELF more comfortable. I reach for my coca-cola. Beast AV plays through going to get alcohol and how it wouldn't be too much effort." I play the tape through and continue about my business, going to the shop to buy milk and bread.
My BP was immediate in its effect of I don't drink NOW. I never drink NOW.
Got a dash... School run!

MicroMacro

My post is a reply to the OP.

I can't relate to what worked for you. I had that opportunity countless times and it wasn't enough.

Algorithm

It's an AVRT thing, MicroMacro. AVRT is a logic engine patterned after the very logic of addiction itself, but based on the opposite cardinal rule (absolute abstinence), and on the certainty principle.

That logic engine will lock on to any contingencies for abstinence, such as your suggestion of getting new all-consuming hobbies, and identify them as Addictive Voice, because in their absence, contingencies are also reasons to drink or use.

On account of this certainty principle, AVRT will contradict much of the usual recovery advice, which is based on the uncertainty principle of preventing future drinking and contingencies on abstaining.

This is the logic of Addiction:

1. I drink or use.
2. IF (Any thinking that contradicts #1)
   Example: "I really shouldn't drink, it will cause big problems."
3. Go To 1

This is the logic of AVRT:

1. I never drink or use.
2. IF (Any thinking that contradicts #1)
   Example: "You can have just one, if you're careful."
3. Go To 1

Even the "whatever works" to quit drinking idea has some shortcomings when run through the AVRT logic engine. It's kind of like saying that there are many ways to throw a ball, and that what works for someone won't work for someone else.

There are many ways to throw a ball, of course, such as throwing it fast, or slow, but the key action of throwing is still essentially the same, regardless of how you throw it. The same holds for quitting drinking and using.

The cardinal rule of addiction is "never say never to the possible future use of alcohol and other drugs," and in order to quit an addiction, one must violate this rule, and decide to never drink or use again. Once that is done, recovery is accomplished, and the aftermath of addiction begins.

The Beast will complain and raise holy hell, of course, and try to get you to change your mind and drink or use again, but that's what AVRT is for. It locks on to any thinking that supports changing your mind, and then attributes it to the Beast, to keep you in your right mind.

Does that make using AVRT a form of prevention? Perhaps, but I would consider the idea that AVRT is required to abstain Addictive Voice, since one could abstain without using AVRT.

Wholesome

Does that make using AVRT a form of prevention? Perhaps, but I would consider the idea that AVRT is required to abstain Addictive Voice, since one could abstain without using AVRT.

Oh you and your Jedi mind tricks!!

I was thinking earlier today about how much double think it takes to continue drinking/ using once you know you have a problem. You have to hold both thoughts of knowing you have a problem while also forgetting about it while also convincing yourself to do it again and again.

Algorithm

I'm not predicting any trouble for you, but there may be some unrecognized AV here, CelticZebra. There seems to be some connection between all the bad things that may result from drinking, and abstaining from alcohol, as if you were playing the tape through to try and counter the Beast's first tape.

Playing the tape in this fashion is essentially entering into a debate or negotiation with the Beast, and saying that you don't drink because bad things may happen. This undermines the finality of your Big Plan, and potentially opens the door for more of the Beast's own tapes to counter your tape.

Better to simply fall back on your Big Plan, and on never, as you eventually did, than to focus on the "what if" game.