Crap happens & challenges what I thought I knew
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Crap happens & challenges what I thought I knew
For many years, I have resided rather comfortably in a belief system that explains how the universe works. I do not subscribe to organized religion, an interventionist deity, or a specific dogma. It has been pretty simple, really: The universe has wisdom and balance of its own: Do the next right thing and all will be right. Events of the past few months are challenging that, and I wonder if I have been deluded by childish thoughts. Has my ego lulled me into a sense of entitlement?
I have been a successful professional for more than 22 years. For the last 20 years, I worked for a government agency where I regularly exceeded productivity. My performance reviews were stellar. A few months ago I came under personal attack by a younger co-worker, and I made a complaint. Long story short: Instead of addressing the matter "they" targeted me. The troops rallied, chose their sides, and at least two co-workers betrayed confidences of mine. Six weeks ago I was fired. I offer this only as background. The details really are not germane to this post.
My initial response was, surprisingly, one of relief: The drama had ended. I submitted a formal complaint, processed the paperwork that will provide me with a small monthly retirement, and relied heavily on the handful of friends who were supportive. I embraced the notion that a door closes but a window opens. I have trusted the universal wisdom that things will be OK.
My resolve is weakening. I am 57 years old, and my skills are limited to a specific profession. My work history is strong, yet I am not even called for interviews. Yesterday I learned that one of the people who betrayed me has just received an incredible work/education opportunity. I was livid: Why to good things happen to bad people? Where's mine? I'm not especially proud of my response, but it is my truth.
I even Googled "when good things happen to bad people." One article by a psychologist read, "I am not a bicycle." He went on to explain that while we are like bicycles in that we have molecules, we differ in that we have feelings that need to be expressed. My mind took the concept in yet another direction: If I pedal a bicycle I can reasonably expect that the wheels will turn. The cause-and-effect is predictable. A flat tire? Repair the tire and resume normal function. The flaw in my logic, I suppose, is that I expect "fair" results. Maybe more to the point is that I have a childlike understanding of what is "fair." Correlation does not imply causality.
It is true: I am not a bicycle. "If this" does not necessarily result in "then that." Let go of outcomes, relinquish the expectations....these have grounded me and placated me in the past, however imperfectly I have applied them. I'm trying so very hard to believe that something good will come of all this. My friends, a small but select group, remind me of these things, and they are sincere. I have done the same when other people have needed encouragement. My hope is dwindling, and I am on the brink of despair.
In recent years, I have become aware of how badly I managed my career. I've performed well, yes, but I have not culled unctuous allies or pandered to higher ups. I've been naive enough to believe that good work would be rewarded. Clearly that has not been enough. If I am not careful I can dive into a pool of self-pity--perhaps I already have!--when I observe that those who have not worked so hard are rewarded. Over the years, I have accepted I would not have a life partner or leave my hometown or any number of things that comprised my dreams. For the most part, I have come to terms with that, realizing that my path led elsewhere. But can't I have something?!
Life, it seems, is an ongoing exercise in letting go. The alcohol, the cigarettes, the unhealthy relationships...those I get. They had to go for me to survive. But after all these years of diligence and hard work I have been stripped of my livelihood, my identity, my self-respect has been tied to my quality of work.
I did not intend to ramble or indulge. I began this post to ask for input from others who can speak to what happens when the beliefs you embraced no longer hold true. I apologize for the self-pity. I did not mean to indulge;it poured out of me as I wrote. If it is worth anything, this is the first time I have cried since I lost my job. That's probably worth something. My usual process is to stew in my discomfort for a little while, purge and move on. Maybe that is the purpose of this very long missive. If you've read this far, thank you. It helps to remember I am not alone.
I have been a successful professional for more than 22 years. For the last 20 years, I worked for a government agency where I regularly exceeded productivity. My performance reviews were stellar. A few months ago I came under personal attack by a younger co-worker, and I made a complaint. Long story short: Instead of addressing the matter "they" targeted me. The troops rallied, chose their sides, and at least two co-workers betrayed confidences of mine. Six weeks ago I was fired. I offer this only as background. The details really are not germane to this post.
My initial response was, surprisingly, one of relief: The drama had ended. I submitted a formal complaint, processed the paperwork that will provide me with a small monthly retirement, and relied heavily on the handful of friends who were supportive. I embraced the notion that a door closes but a window opens. I have trusted the universal wisdom that things will be OK.
My resolve is weakening. I am 57 years old, and my skills are limited to a specific profession. My work history is strong, yet I am not even called for interviews. Yesterday I learned that one of the people who betrayed me has just received an incredible work/education opportunity. I was livid: Why to good things happen to bad people? Where's mine? I'm not especially proud of my response, but it is my truth.
I even Googled "when good things happen to bad people." One article by a psychologist read, "I am not a bicycle." He went on to explain that while we are like bicycles in that we have molecules, we differ in that we have feelings that need to be expressed. My mind took the concept in yet another direction: If I pedal a bicycle I can reasonably expect that the wheels will turn. The cause-and-effect is predictable. A flat tire? Repair the tire and resume normal function. The flaw in my logic, I suppose, is that I expect "fair" results. Maybe more to the point is that I have a childlike understanding of what is "fair." Correlation does not imply causality.
It is true: I am not a bicycle. "If this" does not necessarily result in "then that." Let go of outcomes, relinquish the expectations....these have grounded me and placated me in the past, however imperfectly I have applied them. I'm trying so very hard to believe that something good will come of all this. My friends, a small but select group, remind me of these things, and they are sincere. I have done the same when other people have needed encouragement. My hope is dwindling, and I am on the brink of despair.
In recent years, I have become aware of how badly I managed my career. I've performed well, yes, but I have not culled unctuous allies or pandered to higher ups. I've been naive enough to believe that good work would be rewarded. Clearly that has not been enough. If I am not careful I can dive into a pool of self-pity--perhaps I already have!--when I observe that those who have not worked so hard are rewarded. Over the years, I have accepted I would not have a life partner or leave my hometown or any number of things that comprised my dreams. For the most part, I have come to terms with that, realizing that my path led elsewhere. But can't I have something?!
Life, it seems, is an ongoing exercise in letting go. The alcohol, the cigarettes, the unhealthy relationships...those I get. They had to go for me to survive. But after all these years of diligence and hard work I have been stripped of my livelihood, my identity, my self-respect has been tied to my quality of work.
I did not intend to ramble or indulge. I began this post to ask for input from others who can speak to what happens when the beliefs you embraced no longer hold true. I apologize for the self-pity. I did not mean to indulge;it poured out of me as I wrote. If it is worth anything, this is the first time I have cried since I lost my job. That's probably worth something. My usual process is to stew in my discomfort for a little while, purge and move on. Maybe that is the purpose of this very long missive. If you've read this far, thank you. It helps to remember I am not alone.
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i'm sorry you're going through this, murrill.
and yes, i too hope for fair results with a child-like sense of what's fair. though i know life and people don't work that way.
we all live with unfairness and can see "bad people" get "good things" and vice versa.
learning to accept that if we can't change it is one thing; going to despair is another.
maybe THAT is where you can make change? in where you "go" with this?
Do the next right thing and all will be right.
well, no. do the next right thing and you will be right with yourself. you will have integrity within and without.
i'm rambling here; my heart goes out to you but i have no "solution" as such.
grappling with identity, with definitions of what success looks like for us, and "worth"...tough stuff. but so worthwhile.
and yes, i too hope for fair results with a child-like sense of what's fair. though i know life and people don't work that way.
we all live with unfairness and can see "bad people" get "good things" and vice versa.
learning to accept that if we can't change it is one thing; going to despair is another.
maybe THAT is where you can make change? in where you "go" with this?
Do the next right thing and all will be right.
well, no. do the next right thing and you will be right with yourself. you will have integrity within and without.
i'm rambling here; my heart goes out to you but i have no "solution" as such.
grappling with identity, with definitions of what success looks like for us, and "worth"...tough stuff. but so worthwhile.
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I have a feeling the Universe (and your inner knowing) has a plan for you. It just hasn't revealed itself. Trust that somehow you made micro-choices to get where you are: between the trapezes. It feels like a free fall but you are so smart, so competent, and so generous with your self disclosure, I can't help but think the best is yet to come for you. At the very least I myself would read your blog or your book! En courage, woman!!
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fini,
Thank you for your reply. You are correct, of course, and I especially appreciate your point that what I can control is what I do with all of this. There is som comfort in that, perhaps because I have been thinking that absolutely nothing is under my control. I have tried so hard to keep my chin up, view this as an opportunity, etc. that I have not given myself permission to rant. It hurts, darn it! I have been a good and loyal co-worker for so many years. How quickly the serpents will strike, given a chance.
I have never been very good at defending myself, and I suspect that I harbor a childlike mentality that I should not have to. Anyway, here I am just five years from retirement, looking for a job, having to explain a DWI from 1988, a recent firing, and preparing to return to school if necessary.
A professional resume writer gave me feedback last week. He ran my resume through some software and the assessment went something like this: "...has 22 years of experience but has never been in management. Seems to be more of a doer than an achiever."
I'm just feeling very sad, but your reply was helpful. Thanks.
Thank you for your reply. You are correct, of course, and I especially appreciate your point that what I can control is what I do with all of this. There is som comfort in that, perhaps because I have been thinking that absolutely nothing is under my control. I have tried so hard to keep my chin up, view this as an opportunity, etc. that I have not given myself permission to rant. It hurts, darn it! I have been a good and loyal co-worker for so many years. How quickly the serpents will strike, given a chance.
I have never been very good at defending myself, and I suspect that I harbor a childlike mentality that I should not have to. Anyway, here I am just five years from retirement, looking for a job, having to explain a DWI from 1988, a recent firing, and preparing to return to school if necessary.
A professional resume writer gave me feedback last week. He ran my resume through some software and the assessment went something like this: "...has 22 years of experience but has never been in management. Seems to be more of a doer than an achiever."
I'm just feeling very sad, but your reply was helpful. Thanks.
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,641
“There are times to cultivate and create, when you nurture your world and give birth to new ideas and ventures. There are times of flourishing and abundance, when life feels in full bloom, energized and expanding. And there are times of fruition, when things come to an end. They have reached their climax and must be harvested before they begin to fade. And finally of course, there are times that are cold, and cutting and empty, times when the spring of new beginnings seems like a distant dream. Those rhythms in life are natural events. They weave into one another as day follows night, bringing, not messages of hope and fear, but messages of how things are.”
― Chögyam Trungpa
― Chögyam Trungpa
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"...more of a doer than an achiever".
i've seen plenty of "achievers" in my workplace of 26 years, from where i retired early at 58. retired due to my difficulties functioning well in the super-toxicity fed by the achievement-environment my supervisors, superintendents, managers and director were constantly hamster-wheeling in.
you're in a different situation, of course, not voluntarily so.
if it's true you're a "doer", and if you don't see that as a put-down, then you'll likely have chances to "do". and "do" maybe less, part-time, or "do" entirely differently and more enjoyably.
anyway, your original intent was: I began this post to ask for input from others who can speak to what happens when the beliefs you embraced no longer hold true.
i've been in that situation a few times in my life. where the beliefs i had didn't at all mesh with my own experience. where my own experience contradicted what i thought was "true".
what happens then, you ask?
nothing "happens" as such. i was stuck in a place of vast discomfort. i had a choice in each situation: go with my experience, which meant discarding the belief, or: stick with my belief and attempt to deny my experience in whatever way possible, pretzeling it somehow into my belief-system.
in all cases, eventually experience trumped belief. was the only honest way forward. had a price of much wrestling, since my beliefs ran deep. the end result was a more 'authentic me', to use a new-agey way of putting it.
and i had to beware that i didn't tip over into simply substituting a different belief-system. (simple example of that would be: when i find that good work doesn't always get rewarded, i might easily tip into : no use ever doing good work)
just some thoughts/experience about your originally intended topic.
i've seen plenty of "achievers" in my workplace of 26 years, from where i retired early at 58. retired due to my difficulties functioning well in the super-toxicity fed by the achievement-environment my supervisors, superintendents, managers and director were constantly hamster-wheeling in.
you're in a different situation, of course, not voluntarily so.
if it's true you're a "doer", and if you don't see that as a put-down, then you'll likely have chances to "do". and "do" maybe less, part-time, or "do" entirely differently and more enjoyably.
anyway, your original intent was: I began this post to ask for input from others who can speak to what happens when the beliefs you embraced no longer hold true.
i've been in that situation a few times in my life. where the beliefs i had didn't at all mesh with my own experience. where my own experience contradicted what i thought was "true".
what happens then, you ask?
nothing "happens" as such. i was stuck in a place of vast discomfort. i had a choice in each situation: go with my experience, which meant discarding the belief, or: stick with my belief and attempt to deny my experience in whatever way possible, pretzeling it somehow into my belief-system.
in all cases, eventually experience trumped belief. was the only honest way forward. had a price of much wrestling, since my beliefs ran deep. the end result was a more 'authentic me', to use a new-agey way of putting it.
and i had to beware that i didn't tip over into simply substituting a different belief-system. (simple example of that would be: when i find that good work doesn't always get rewarded, i might easily tip into : no use ever doing good work)
just some thoughts/experience about your originally intended topic.
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Originally Posted by WhatBeast 
I have a feeling the Universe (and your inner knowing) has a plan for you. It just hasn't revealed itself. Trust that somehow you made micro-choices to get where you are: between the trapezes. It feels like a free fall but you are so smart, so competent, and so generous with your self disclosure, I can't help but think the best is yet to come for you. At the very least I myself would read your blog or your book! En courage, woman!!
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Originally Posted by zerothehero
“There are times to cultivate and create, when you nurture your world and give birth to new ideas and ventures. There are times of flourishing and abundance, when life feels in full bloom, energized and expanding. And there are times of fruition, when things come to an end. They have reached their climax and must be harvested before they begin to fade. And finally of course, there are times that are cold, and cutting and empty, times when the spring of new beginnings seems like a distant dream. Those rhythms in life are natural events. They weave into one another as day follows night, bringing, not messages of hope and fear, but messages of how things are.”
― Chögyam Trungpa
― Chögyam Trungpa
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Originally Posted by fini
"...more of a doer than an achiever".
anyway, your original intent was: I began this post to ask for input from others who can speak to what happens when the beliefs you embraced no longer hold true.
i've been in that situation a few times in my life. where the beliefs i had didn't at all mesh with my own experience. where my own experience contradicted what i thought was "true".
what happens then, you ask?
nothing "happens" as such. i was stuck in a place of vast discomfort. i had a choice in each situation: go with my experience, which meant discarding the belief, or: stick with my belief and attempt to deny my experience in whatever way possible, pretzeling it somehow into my belief-system.
in all cases, eventually experience trumped belief. was the only honest way forward. had a price of much wrestling, since my beliefs ran deep. the end result was a more 'authentic me', to use a new-agey way of putting it.
and i had to beware that i didn't tip over into simply substituting a different belief-system. (simple example of that would be: when i find that good work doesn't always get rewarded, i might easily tip into : no use ever doing good work)
just some thoughts/experience about your originally intended topic.
anyway, your original intent was: I began this post to ask for input from others who can speak to what happens when the beliefs you embraced no longer hold true.
i've been in that situation a few times in my life. where the beliefs i had didn't at all mesh with my own experience. where my own experience contradicted what i thought was "true".
what happens then, you ask?
nothing "happens" as such. i was stuck in a place of vast discomfort. i had a choice in each situation: go with my experience, which meant discarding the belief, or: stick with my belief and attempt to deny my experience in whatever way possible, pretzeling it somehow into my belief-system.
in all cases, eventually experience trumped belief. was the only honest way forward. had a price of much wrestling, since my beliefs ran deep. the end result was a more 'authentic me', to use a new-agey way of putting it.
and i had to beware that i didn't tip over into simply substituting a different belief-system. (simple example of that would be: when i find that good work doesn't always get rewarded, i might easily tip into : no use ever doing good work)
just some thoughts/experience about your originally intended topic.
It may be premature to discard a belief system based on current circumstances, but I think you make an excellent point that there is a growth opportunity here. I do not have to erase the board, but I can be open to modifications. As a friend one called them: AFGE, or Another Fantastic (or other F-word of your choice) Growing Experience.
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Your post is full of strength and hope. I too believe in karma and what comes around goes around. I can relate to your story as I've been the victim of backstabbing psychopaths in a previous job. They would take their coffee breaks in the foreman's office and basically talk dirt about me and a few other coworkers. I knew that this activity was wrong and pointed it out to the foreman. Guess who suffered? These types of people are not usually the best performing workers and know it. They develop skills around forming alliances, making common enemies and planning their attack. (Kinda like the system we live in) People with high levels of integrity don't do this. We suffer often. We don't gossip around the water cooler. We don't align with others against individuals and set out to destroy them. We are fair minded. We keep our heads down and rely on our performance and fairness to win the day. Unfortunately we are living in an illusion of sorts and our unwillingness to indulge in this base behavior bites us in the ***. I first read about this in a book "The Highly Sensitive Person, subtitled How to Thrive When the World Overwhelms You, is a non-fiction book by psychologist Elaine N. Aron, PhD, that discusses highly sensitive persons." It clearly explained to me how come I'd met with so much resistance in the work place. It explained to me the value in "playing the game." I still resist.
Anyways I don't know if my little bit is of any help. I think you will see a better day ahead. It may take sometime. I've been struggling in a new town for three years. Unable to make headway into my favorite way to make money(musician). Musicians can be really petty and things havn't gone super good but it's looking like that is going to change. Three years later! Hang in there. Keep your head up. You've a lot to give and life is funny. My dad used to say, "todays circumstances are not tomorrows reality."
The road gets rough, the road gets smooth. Thank you for your honesty in your post. I wish you all the best.
Anyways I don't know if my little bit is of any help. I think you will see a better day ahead. It may take sometime. I've been struggling in a new town for three years. Unable to make headway into my favorite way to make money(musician). Musicians can be really petty and things havn't gone super good but it's looking like that is going to change. Three years later! Hang in there. Keep your head up. You've a lot to give and life is funny. My dad used to say, "todays circumstances are not tomorrows reality."
The road gets rough, the road gets smooth. Thank you for your honesty in your post. I wish you all the best.
waking down
Join Date: Dec 2013
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Sometimes I suffer because I try to find meaning where there is no meaning to be found. I often envy those who have a deep felt sense that everything happens for a reason or that karma is a literal tit-for-tat kind of thing. It helps ease the periods of difficulty and strain. There are a lot of people that would argue that everything I've been through (or what you're going through) is for a reason, and in a way I believe that, but not on a spiritual or magical level. More like synchronicity or enhanced coincidence. But it is true that in many ways all of my suffering, the **** at work, the addictions, the hangovers, detox, and then surgeries and more **** - all of it leads to this moment, and it's meaningful in the sense that the past was a prerequisite for the present and will allow a future. I would not be me had I not been that other guy not so very long ago. Of course, it was all me. And not. One thing that strikes me, though, if I'm making any sense at all, is that clinging to hope is another form of craving and thus another source of suffering. This is a huge shift in my belief system. I used to think keeping hope alive was essential for survival, but I've come to believe that hope is not all it's cracked up to be. This doesn't mean that at age 55 I'm not taking classes again and fixing to quit my job and shift careers. It doesn't mean I'm just gonna sit here a wallow in hopelessness. It doesn't mean I'm on the precipice of despair. On the contrary, embracing hopelessness feels like I've taken some weight off my shoulders. I can do what I do, moment to moment, to improve my life and the life of others without clinging to some fantasy about what it's supposed to be like or what it ought to mean. I might sound a little crazy right now, but it's kind of the beyond good and evil of hope and hopelessness or meaning and meaninglessness. Camus says we create our own meaning, but is a created meaning really that meaningful? It's like the question of existence of god. There are the faithful, and then there are atheists who seem to have faith there is no god. And agnostics say they just don't know. But nontheism, also somewhat of a new concept for me, seems to be beyond not knowing; it's like why even ask the question? Is there a God? Is there meaning? Is there hope? I increasingly feel that these are questions that, lacking faith that there is god or meaning or hope, just cause suffering. It's a kind of radical acceptance, I guess. So, yes, "correlation does not imply causality." Maybe something good will come of this, but expecting it only causes more suffering. I try to get back to gratitude for the moment and refraining from feeling too sorry for myself (not easily done and I'm not perfect by any means), but it seems to me we can stand at the brink and instead of falling into despair, wiggle our toes and let the wind tickle them until we realize that, wow, that abyss is simply a mental construct of our own making and we can dive in or just let the breeze calm our ever-busy minds.
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Thank you, murrill, for sharing your experience and thoughtful questions. And thanks to other posters for thought-provoking responses. I have struggled all my life to come to terms with the fact that "life isn't fair". I always wanted it to be fair ... and not just for me. I've had a mostly decent life, so a lot of my struggle has been over how unfair life seems for the most vulnerable on our planet. I still have no answer, except to try to see and accept things as they are, and be grateful and try to be kind to myself and others.
I'm sorry for the pain you're going through.
I'm sorry for the pain you're going through.
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Originally Posted by frankster
first read about this in a book "The Highly Sensitive Person, subtitled How to Thrive When the World Overwhelms You, is a non-fiction book by psychologist Elaine N. Aron, PhD, that discusses highly sensitive persons."
My dad used to say, "todays circumstances are not tomorrows reality."
The road gets rough, the road gets smooth. Thank you for your honesty in your post. I wish you all the best.
My dad used to say, "todays circumstances are not tomorrows reality."
The road gets rough, the road gets smooth. Thank you for your honesty in your post. I wish you all the best.
Thank you for your support and for sharing your experiences. I have read Aron's book, and I think that you are right about how we HSPs are more vulnerable to workplace bullies. I had one co-worker who used to walk the halls and whistle--that high-pitched fingernails-on-the-chalkboard kind of whistle. Made me want to run out of the place! Mostly, though, I have trouble working in an environment filled with gossip, shrieks, disingenuous alliances....you know what I mean. It has been my experience that people with artistic talents, i. e. music, are more sensitive than most. I have a lover of theater and literature, so I guess I'm one of "those" as well.
It has helped to finally verbalize how I feel, and I appreciate the feedback. I'd forgotten how my highly sensitive nature plays into all of this. Thanks for the input.
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Originally Posted by zerothehero
Sometimes I suffer because I try to find meaning where there is no meaning to be found.
One thing that strikes me, though, if I'm making any sense at all, is that clinging to hope is another form of craving and thus another source of suffering. This is a huge shift in my belief system. I used to think keeping hope alive was essential for survival, but I've come to believe that hope is not all it's cracked up to be.
On the contrary, embracing hopelessness feels like I've taken some weight off my shoulders. I can do what I do, moment to moment, to improve my life and the life of others without clinging to some fantasy about what it's supposed to be like or what it ought to mean. I might sound a little crazy right now, but it's kind of the beyond good and evil of hope and hopelessness or meaning and meaninglessness. Camus says we create our own meaning, but is a created meaning really that meaningful? It's like the question of existence of god. There are the faithful, and then there are atheists who seem to have faith there is no god. And agnostics say they just don't know. But nontheism, also somewhat of a new concept for me, seems to be beyond not knowing; it's like why even ask the question? Maybe something good will come of this, but expecting it only causes more suffering.
One thing that strikes me, though, if I'm making any sense at all, is that clinging to hope is another form of craving and thus another source of suffering. This is a huge shift in my belief system. I used to think keeping hope alive was essential for survival, but I've come to believe that hope is not all it's cracked up to be.
On the contrary, embracing hopelessness feels like I've taken some weight off my shoulders. I can do what I do, moment to moment, to improve my life and the life of others without clinging to some fantasy about what it's supposed to be like or what it ought to mean. I might sound a little crazy right now, but it's kind of the beyond good and evil of hope and hopelessness or meaning and meaninglessness. Camus says we create our own meaning, but is a created meaning really that meaningful? It's like the question of existence of god. There are the faithful, and then there are atheists who seem to have faith there is no god. And agnostics say they just don't know. But nontheism, also somewhat of a new concept for me, seems to be beyond not knowing; it's like why even ask the question? Maybe something good will come of this, but expecting it only causes more suffering.
You make some quite good points, and to be honest I am still trying to wrap my mind around some of them. I've edited your post /\ for brevity, but for any visitors here I recommend reading the original.
I, too, look for meaning in all things. I am analytical by nature (ad nauseum, ad infinitum); I suspect it is my way of believing things are manageable. There is some relief in this notion you suggest, just as there is some in the idea of embracing hopelessness. As soon as I do, however, I snatch it back , return it to my library.
I have recently been looking at some beliefs that I adopted many years ago, and I have come to see them as devices necessary to protect myself at the time. It does not mean they are true, but I've made them my reality. I can shatter them, stop living in them, and move on. I began to describe myself as nontheist a few years ago: I like the idea that the topic does not warrant debate.
There is a bit of Pollyanna in me. I live in fantasy and dreams much of the time. Some might call it denial. Maybe what worked at one time no longer applies. Something will happen: Whether it is "good' "bad"--whatever, I cannot say. Today I screamed @$%&$$^^!! at the universe! I am scared and sad, but I feel better for having shared this.
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zero and murril,
just wondering if by embracing hopelessness you mean something i might term not-hoping.
hopelessness to me sounds so close to resignation and despair, and that's not how your post comes across, zero, where you originally mention it.
can you clarify?
just wondering if by embracing hopelessness you mean something i might term not-hoping.
hopelessness to me sounds so close to resignation and despair, and that's not how your post comes across, zero, where you originally mention it.
can you clarify?
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Zero, to me it sounds like you are describing a zen thing, you are neither hoping for some particular future nor despairing about the past, but seeking your own peace in the present through acceptance. Does that ring true?
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,641
I don't know about zen, but that's basically it. I was introduced to the idea by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, a Tibetan Buddhist. He explains there is an element of hopelessness in the nontheistic perspective, but this need not mean despair. Murrill says she likes the idea of nontheism in that the question of god need not warrant debate. So, just as faith is something one either has or does not, it is similar with hope, and one need not despair for lack of hope or lack of faith. So, yes, it is about present moment awareness. We're not hoping for a better future or an afterlife or being saved; we're saved already - we just don't know it yet - and we're our own saviors.
It's kind of a flip of Kierkegaard's fear and trembling and sickness unto death. He explained that those who believe in an after life are frightened that it could be hell, and those who don't believe in an after life are sickened by despair. So, as far as the present moment is concerned, you're damned if you believe and damned if you don't. The Buddhist might say it is focusing on hope for an afterlife that is causing the fear and despair in the first place. Stop focusing on the future, deem the question irrelevant, and find peace in the present.
So, hope is future-oriented. For those who don't feel hopeful, trying to muster hope is a form of craving, and thus causes suffering. If you have faith, great. If you don't then don't worry about it. If you have hope, great. If you don't, then don't torture yourself trying to create it.
There are meditations designed for this purpose. One asks the practitioner to envision his own corpse rotting and being eaten by worms. It sounds morbid, but the idea is an acceptance of death, that we all die, that holding onto permanence only causes suffering. So, yes, it's about acceptance.
The Christian finds peace in faith there will be paradise in the afterlife.
The Buddhist (or nontheist) finds peace in hopelessness.
After all, while we fret about possible future scenarios, we forget to live in the moment. Why waste today on painful speculation about tomorrow?
It's kind of a flip of Kierkegaard's fear and trembling and sickness unto death. He explained that those who believe in an after life are frightened that it could be hell, and those who don't believe in an after life are sickened by despair. So, as far as the present moment is concerned, you're damned if you believe and damned if you don't. The Buddhist might say it is focusing on hope for an afterlife that is causing the fear and despair in the first place. Stop focusing on the future, deem the question irrelevant, and find peace in the present.
So, hope is future-oriented. For those who don't feel hopeful, trying to muster hope is a form of craving, and thus causes suffering. If you have faith, great. If you don't then don't worry about it. If you have hope, great. If you don't, then don't torture yourself trying to create it.
There are meditations designed for this purpose. One asks the practitioner to envision his own corpse rotting and being eaten by worms. It sounds morbid, but the idea is an acceptance of death, that we all die, that holding onto permanence only causes suffering. So, yes, it's about acceptance.
The Christian finds peace in faith there will be paradise in the afterlife.
The Buddhist (or nontheist) finds peace in hopelessness.
After all, while we fret about possible future scenarios, we forget to live in the moment. Why waste today on painful speculation about tomorrow?
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,937
I've been thinking about your post for a few days, Murrill. First off I'm sorry you've gone through so much. It does seem like on some level the Universe should be fair; in fact existentialists describe the Absurd as the fact that humans yearn for and expect meaning in a Universe that seems utterly indifferent to us. Still we can't help feeling "wronged" when people do things that violate every tenet of decent social behavior yet seem to find success anyway.
It's hard to accept that unfairness deep down. At best doing the right things tips the scales somewhat in our favor. Luck, for good or ill, will have some say in our lives. But I do believe that our best chance of happiness and success comes from consistently doing what we know to be right.
I'd rather fail having done the right thing than succeed from doing ill. But I will admit that it can be a hard path to walk, especially when nothing goes your way.
It's hard to accept that unfairness deep down. At best doing the right things tips the scales somewhat in our favor. Luck, for good or ill, will have some say in our lives. But I do believe that our best chance of happiness and success comes from consistently doing what we know to be right.
I'd rather fail having done the right thing than succeed from doing ill. But I will admit that it can be a hard path to walk, especially when nothing goes your way.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 343
I appreciate what all of you have shared, and the support is tremendously helpful. I have had to mull it over for a few days--what zerothehero said about hopelessness--and I think s/he explains it well: It is not despair so much as the absence of expectation.
It was during the course of my second year of sobriety that I began to grasp spirituality sans deity. It was wonderfully freeing, and I don't think that the essential foundation has changed very much since then. There have been refinements, of course, and I hope that I have made myself open to exploration. Perhaps this is a good opportunity for that.
Things have begun to happen regarding my situation this week. I cannot label them "good" or "bad;" they just are. My retirement processed more quickly than expected which means a little financial security, but it also means there is a waiting period before I can accept work with a comparable government agency. It will work out. I'm not sure how, but it will.
There is more ahead, and I may come back in tears. It is nice to know that there is somewhere to turn. Thank you all.
It was during the course of my second year of sobriety that I began to grasp spirituality sans deity. It was wonderfully freeing, and I don't think that the essential foundation has changed very much since then. There have been refinements, of course, and I hope that I have made myself open to exploration. Perhaps this is a good opportunity for that.
Things have begun to happen regarding my situation this week. I cannot label them "good" or "bad;" they just are. My retirement processed more quickly than expected which means a little financial security, but it also means there is a waiting period before I can accept work with a comparable government agency. It will work out. I'm not sure how, but it will.
There is more ahead, and I may come back in tears. It is nice to know that there is somewhere to turn. Thank you all.
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