adventures in AVRT
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by Tatsy 
It is after all, the brain's mis-directed survival mechanism and thus: powerful. But not as powerful as our minds.
The structural model of addiction shows that the Beast has no direct means to get what it wants. It must appeal to us (via the AV) to convince us to give it what it wants.
We simply have to do exactly what the Beast does when it screens our thinking to intervene against any plan for ending the addiction. We simply screen our thinking, recognize any thoughts that support the addiction, and place them onto the scrap heap we call Addictive Voice.
AVRT is a little like a sorting filter.
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
Originally Posted by Algorithm
The Beast is persistent, single minded, cunning, and ruthless, but the key thing to remember is that the "powerful" part is simply smoke and mirrors. It has no power beyond what we choose to give it.
The structural model of addiction shows that the Beast has no direct means to get what it wants. It must appeal to us (via the AV) to convince us to give it what it wants.
We simply have to do exactly what the Beast does when it screens our thinking to intervene against any plan for ending the addiction. We simply screen our thinking, recognize any thoughts that support the addiction, and place them onto the scrap heap we call Addictive Voice.
AVRT is a little like a sorting filter.
The structural model of addiction shows that the Beast has no direct means to get what it wants. It must appeal to us (via the AV) to convince us to give it what it wants.
We simply have to do exactly what the Beast does when it screens our thinking to intervene against any plan for ending the addiction. We simply screen our thinking, recognize any thoughts that support the addiction, and place them onto the scrap heap we call Addictive Voice.
AVRT is a little like a sorting filter.
Sadly for IT, I'm in control of the decision whether I drink or not and I made the decision that I will never drink again, when I made my Big Plan.
Thank you for being here, with your fantastic guidance regarding RR AVRT.
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Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 2,578
From time to time, I update this thread on how AVRT works for me. This week it has given me a clear view of how the beast has no real power, although it would like us to think it does.
I have the good fortune of enjoying a vacation in Italy this week with my husband. We're taking long hikes and enjoying great meals, and deep sleep in a quiet medieval city. Wine is all around, of course. We went to a regional food expo, and local farmers were giving out samples of cheeses, bread, meats, and wines. I encouraged my husband to try the wine samples if he liked -- "just because I don't drink shouldn't limit you". He said he couldn't care less about the wine, he was just so glad to have me "present", really here with him (a gift of sobriety).
Even here, in the heart of Italian wine country, the beast has no real power. Once or twice it has whispered, tried to drum up nostalgia for times I enjoyed wine in the past. But I know nostalgia is just the AV so I don't indulge it, or become troubled by it... I just see it, and it dissipates without a struggle. I am content with my new life and grateful for it.
If you're new and wondering if it can possibly be that simple, can I really be free from alcohol and free from the struggle, can I be content with a non-drinking life, I submit from my experience that the answer is yes.
I have the good fortune of enjoying a vacation in Italy this week with my husband. We're taking long hikes and enjoying great meals, and deep sleep in a quiet medieval city. Wine is all around, of course. We went to a regional food expo, and local farmers were giving out samples of cheeses, bread, meats, and wines. I encouraged my husband to try the wine samples if he liked -- "just because I don't drink shouldn't limit you". He said he couldn't care less about the wine, he was just so glad to have me "present", really here with him (a gift of sobriety).
Even here, in the heart of Italian wine country, the beast has no real power. Once or twice it has whispered, tried to drum up nostalgia for times I enjoyed wine in the past. But I know nostalgia is just the AV so I don't indulge it, or become troubled by it... I just see it, and it dissipates without a struggle. I am content with my new life and grateful for it.
If you're new and wondering if it can possibly be that simple, can I really be free from alcohol and free from the struggle, can I be content with a non-drinking life, I submit from my experience that the answer is yes.
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
Hello Tursiops, your post made me well up. Your husband's comments that he 'couldn't care less about the wine, he was just so glad to have you 'present'., touched me deeply.
When drinking every day for years, I wasn't my real 'self'. At the weekend, my husband said, 'It's good to have you back. I kept hoping you'd return'. But I didn't go anywhere or return to him. I simply dissolved myself in ethanol.
Your holiday sounds idyllic.
I wholeheartedly endorse your last paragraph! You're such an inspiration.
When drinking every day for years, I wasn't my real 'self'. At the weekend, my husband said, 'It's good to have you back. I kept hoping you'd return'. But I didn't go anywhere or return to him. I simply dissolved myself in ethanol.
Your holiday sounds idyllic.
I wholeheartedly endorse your last paragraph! You're such an inspiration.
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Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 2,578
Random thoughts this evening ....
When I first got sober, without knowing AVRT, I developed a plan that included a lot of things. Exercise, healthy food, meditation, social contact, meetings, Journaling, etc. I did stay sober. But over time my regimen started to feel kind of exhausting. It also seemed kind of superstitious .. what exactly was keeping me sober? What if I skipped some, or all, of these tasks...would I "relapse"? How quickly would it happen? What was more confusing, was that having thoughts of drinking did not seem to correlate ...I could have weeks where I did everything right yet really wanted a drink, and other weeks when I didn't stick to my plan yet had no thoughts of booze at all.
With AVRT I finally understand that I can simply choose abstinence unconditionally. I can have the worst habits in the world and still be 100% clear that I will not drink.
Don't get me wrong, I think plans for self-care are worthwhile and important .. and I do continue to practice many of these things. I feel better when I do. It's just important for me to understand down deep that my abstinence doesn't depend on that, or anything else.
I was thinking of it this evening, because my self care is a bit off...started a new job and caught the flu, am really wiped out. But I don't have to fear "relapse", and that's so empowering.
When I first got sober, without knowing AVRT, I developed a plan that included a lot of things. Exercise, healthy food, meditation, social contact, meetings, Journaling, etc. I did stay sober. But over time my regimen started to feel kind of exhausting. It also seemed kind of superstitious .. what exactly was keeping me sober? What if I skipped some, or all, of these tasks...would I "relapse"? How quickly would it happen? What was more confusing, was that having thoughts of drinking did not seem to correlate ...I could have weeks where I did everything right yet really wanted a drink, and other weeks when I didn't stick to my plan yet had no thoughts of booze at all.
With AVRT I finally understand that I can simply choose abstinence unconditionally. I can have the worst habits in the world and still be 100% clear that I will not drink.
Don't get me wrong, I think plans for self-care are worthwhile and important .. and I do continue to practice many of these things. I feel better when I do. It's just important for me to understand down deep that my abstinence doesn't depend on that, or anything else.
I was thinking of it this evening, because my self care is a bit off...started a new job and caught the flu, am really wiped out. But I don't have to fear "relapse", and that's so empowering.
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by tursiops999
I did stay sober. But over time my regimen started to feel kind of exhausting. It also seemed kind of superstitious .. what exactly was keeping me sober? What if I skipped some, or all, of these tasks...would I "relapse"? How quickly would it happen?
The idea of relapse prevention is based on the uncertainty principle, and is predicated on an enduring plan to drink. It puts the addicted person in the difficult, and defensive position of trying to scare off the Beast in order to abstain.
The Beast picks up on this fear, and runs with it.
This is a key AVRT insight.
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 610
Originally Posted by Algorithm
What you describe is a variation of the "relapse prevention” model, which is based on the belief that addicted people don’t really drink or use, but instead, that relapses "just happen", unless they are prevented.
The idea of relapse prevention is based on the uncertainty principle, and is predicated on an enduring plan to drink. It puts the addicted person in the difficult, and defensive position of trying to scare off the Beast in order to abstain.
The Beast picks up on this fear, and runs with it.
This is a key AVRT insight.
The idea of relapse prevention is based on the uncertainty principle, and is predicated on an enduring plan to drink. It puts the addicted person in the difficult, and defensive position of trying to scare off the Beast in order to abstain.
The Beast picks up on this fear, and runs with it.
This is a key AVRT insight.
Overtime I have begun to see That AVRT is quite different, indeed in direct opposition in ways, to more traditional recovery methods. I think everyone had to find what works fir them but i cant help but feel that starting from a place of powerlessness is setting oneself up for failure?
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
I suppose the idea of powerlessness is debatable in context, e.g. The level of power I bring to bear after becoming intoxicated is going to be practically nonexistent, but that fact has absolutely nothing to do with the level of power I am able to exercise over the decision to become intoxicated.
The difference between those situations gets blurred , I think, and the result is ammo for the AV. The Beast only 'sees' intoxication and desires a constant state of intoxication using the fear of control loss as applying to both situations , as if they were the same , is Its way of keeping Its foot in the door.
Closing the door is as easy as realizing that it is Always possible to choose to not self intoxicate . Try saying " I will always have the power to choose to never drink" any incredulousness is the AV.
Practicing relapse prevention was invented by the AV and the practice is applauded by AVs en masse.
The difference between those situations gets blurred , I think, and the result is ammo for the AV. The Beast only 'sees' intoxication and desires a constant state of intoxication using the fear of control loss as applying to both situations , as if they were the same , is Its way of keeping Its foot in the door.
Closing the door is as easy as realizing that it is Always possible to choose to not self intoxicate . Try saying " I will always have the power to choose to never drink" any incredulousness is the AV.
Practicing relapse prevention was invented by the AV and the practice is applauded by AVs en masse.
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Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 2,578
The powerless concept was helpful to me in a narrow sense ... recognizing that if I chose to drink, I would not be able to limit my overall consumption to the healthy limit guidelines. Saying I was powerless was a way of crying "uncle" about trying to control my drinking.
But once I cried uncle, it wasn't a useful concept going forward. Because freedom from alcohol is all about using my power to choose abstinence.
I agree with you dwtbd ... the two usages get blurred ... powerless to control the level of drinking after I choose to pick up, versus powerless over the choice to pick up in the first place. I'll only cop to the former
But once I cried uncle, it wasn't a useful concept going forward. Because freedom from alcohol is all about using my power to choose abstinence.
I agree with you dwtbd ... the two usages get blurred ... powerless to control the level of drinking after I choose to pick up, versus powerless over the choice to pick up in the first place. I'll only cop to the former
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by Avra
The idea of powerlessness is troubling to me... I have begun to see That AVRT is quite different, indeed in direct opposition in ways, to more traditional recovery methods.
The smirking Beast has always suggested that you are powerless before IT, since the day IT was first born, so IT will gloat that you have finally accepted ITs supremacy so unconditionally. IT will then proceed to drive you into the ground, as a side effect of its perverse agenda.
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Join Date: Jun 2015
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I had a vertigo attack yesterday.
It came at the end of a 10-week stretch of intense work at my job, with lots of overtime and stress. I've had a lot of beast activity the last couple weeks. Yesterday I was on the way to a company party to celebrate the end of our project. I was flooded with thoughts of having a glass of wine, and rationalizing that. I was able to say "this is vertigo, because I don't drink". I was stuck for 5 minutes waiting for a slow elevator, which was enough time for me to get grounded again. At their party I happily ordered a club soda, and had no problem despite the copious beer and wine flowing around me.
I didn't mind the vertigo attack, I know how to handle these. But I have to be honest and say that the volume of beast attacks the last couple weeks has made me feel weary. Or maybe I'm just generally weary, which is why they're happening. I don't feel afraid that I'll drink. But I get tired of hearing the AV sometimes.
I guess maybe I'm just not separating as decisively as I could..,maybe I'm letting the AV rattle on too much before redirecting my thoughts. Anybody else ever get tired or discouraged?
It came at the end of a 10-week stretch of intense work at my job, with lots of overtime and stress. I've had a lot of beast activity the last couple weeks. Yesterday I was on the way to a company party to celebrate the end of our project. I was flooded with thoughts of having a glass of wine, and rationalizing that. I was able to say "this is vertigo, because I don't drink". I was stuck for 5 minutes waiting for a slow elevator, which was enough time for me to get grounded again. At their party I happily ordered a club soda, and had no problem despite the copious beer and wine flowing around me.
I didn't mind the vertigo attack, I know how to handle these. But I have to be honest and say that the volume of beast attacks the last couple weeks has made me feel weary. Or maybe I'm just generally weary, which is why they're happening. I don't feel afraid that I'll drink. But I get tired of hearing the AV sometimes.
I guess maybe I'm just not separating as decisively as I could..,maybe I'm letting the AV rattle on too much before redirecting my thoughts. Anybody else ever get tired or discouraged?
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
It sure sounds like the stressed and weariness angle is motivating the activity. How much credence are you giving the underlying position that alcohol will/does provide relief or respite, and that are you missing an opportunity to provide yourself such 'relief'?
Are you conceding that a 'glass' of wine will provide a commensurate amount of unwinding, steam blowing off relaxation to address the stress that a month's or more of hard work has built up?
I think the AV is hitting the relief so hard, because you are perhaps harboring the idea of ' relief ' and depriving yourself of it ?
Tired and discouraged ? about life and life's happenings , yeah sure, Tired and discouraged to the point that relief from it can be provided by indulging IT ? Nope, the fleeting 2 second adrenaline rush of the first sip is in reality ramping up the stress inducing, wearisome , anxiety laden path of indulging IT.
I hope the end of the project means some down time is in store soon, and I hope you find some respite and relief of the stress, just some real respite
Are you conceding that a 'glass' of wine will provide a commensurate amount of unwinding, steam blowing off relaxation to address the stress that a month's or more of hard work has built up?
I think the AV is hitting the relief so hard, because you are perhaps harboring the idea of ' relief ' and depriving yourself of it ?
Tired and discouraged ? about life and life's happenings , yeah sure, Tired and discouraged to the point that relief from it can be provided by indulging IT ? Nope, the fleeting 2 second adrenaline rush of the first sip is in reality ramping up the stress inducing, wearisome , anxiety laden path of indulging IT.
I hope the end of the project means some down time is in store soon, and I hope you find some respite and relief of the stress, just some real respite
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 98
Hi turnips999
I remember when I first posted here a few weeks ago with the same problem, you were very sympathetic..These moments happen which are why they are addressed and named in the book.
I think if you get to the stage of rationalizing that glass of wine you are maybe engaging with the AV too much. That was the problem I came here with a few weeks ago after 2 years of being perfectly happy and unbothered by any (increasingly rare noise the AV made). I was sick of hearing IT for the couple of weeks before. After thinking it through, after I posted here, I realized I didn't want drink (IT wanted that, always will, and will always step in and offer it up as a "cure all" for any major stressor)
What I wanted was SOMETHING to make me feel more comfortable with the situation I was/am in, SOMETHING to give me back my equilibrium. I did actually find something to help (NO Beast not drink ..will you ever deviate from that idea? No? ok lol)
Sometimes stresses have to be lived through, and there is no resolution (Im talking here of my wifes terminal illness) but there are a thousand alternatives to helping to make these easier to bare than the false comfort of drink.
But unfortunetly IT only knows one solution..good job we control IT and have the intelligence of our brain on our side eh?
I remember when I first posted here a few weeks ago with the same problem, you were very sympathetic..These moments happen which are why they are addressed and named in the book.
I think if you get to the stage of rationalizing that glass of wine you are maybe engaging with the AV too much. That was the problem I came here with a few weeks ago after 2 years of being perfectly happy and unbothered by any (increasingly rare noise the AV made). I was sick of hearing IT for the couple of weeks before. After thinking it through, after I posted here, I realized I didn't want drink (IT wanted that, always will, and will always step in and offer it up as a "cure all" for any major stressor)
What I wanted was SOMETHING to make me feel more comfortable with the situation I was/am in, SOMETHING to give me back my equilibrium. I did actually find something to help (NO Beast not drink ..will you ever deviate from that idea? No? ok lol)
Sometimes stresses have to be lived through, and there is no resolution (Im talking here of my wifes terminal illness) but there are a thousand alternatives to helping to make these easier to bare than the false comfort of drink.
But unfortunetly IT only knows one solution..good job we control IT and have the intelligence of our brain on our side eh?
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