Greenwood618

I should clarify because I advocated this position in this thread.

Chronic drunkeness is not a result of spiritual bankruptcy. It is merely a hyper-hedonistic drive for pleasure that has become commingled with the survival drives and is mistakenly believed to be one of them.

So let's get that straight. It ensnares perfectly fine people (along with its share of bums as well).

Now let me ask this:

1. Is premeditated homicide of an innocent person that is not in the defense of another innocent person immoral?

2. Is sexual assault immoral?

3. Is battery immoral?

4. Is adultery immoral?

5. Is theft immoral?

I think most of us would agree the answer is yes, silly conditions and one-off situations discounted.

The moral equation as it relates to chronic drunkeness is this: if under the influence of alcohol, if any of these immoral acts become more likely, is not the predicate act of consuming alcohol also immoral?

Let's examine in greater depth:

1. Homicide - drunken driving speaks for itself. I would say 90 percent of the people here are guilty and most of us lucky to have never killed or hurt someone.

2. Sexual assault - I would say few people ever get there, but the correlation is strong in date rapes, etc.

3. Battery - Related to the drunk driving; injuring another as opposed to killing.

4. Adultery - what goes on the back booths and parking lots.

5. Theft - what you do to your boss most every morning.

So I do have to insist that drinking in the face of these consequences is a moral outrage. I would agree that most of the people who continue to drink are not innately immoral, but they have abandoned their humanity to the party animal and it's siren song for dope.

silentrun

Is it immoral to vomit up acid and keep drinking that night? I would say people who keep using are suffering . I think really messed with my mind and make me act in ways I would describe as uncharacteristic. It is pretty hard to figure out how to free yourself under those circumstances.

JeffreyAK

Who's the doer? That's the inconsistency I see in Trimpey's view, one of many fundamental errors IMO - you can't split yourself in two and call part of you the "AV" or "The Beast", someone else, yet not acknowledge there is a difference between YOU the person and that other person you become as an addict. I find it easier to accept the view that is consistent with science, that addiction changes your brain and can indeed change your character and even morals, but there is a core you that returns when you abstain for a significant period of time, and has a lot of 'splaining to do to significant others, employers, etc. This change is caused by the alcohol itself, not any fundamental moral defects, and to varying degrees it happens to billions of people.

I'm sorry for the harm I caused, but all I can do is do better, and I'm certainly not an immoral person for having become an alcohol addict, no more than I would if I had been struck by temporary schizophrenia. Yes, I chose to drink, but I did not choose to become an addict, and Trimpey's notion that it was a hedonistic pursuit of pleasure is laughable.

But, if others wish to carry a cross around and feel defective, they can do that. I'm too busy being a productive citizen, as I was before I became an addict but now with a much wiser and integrated worldview.

dwtbd

Like I said before , I think we humans are a complicated lot and that are there things to be said and considered along the lines of separating differrent aspects of addiction and looking at their perspective interplay. Things like the physical/chemical depedence and how that affects a person as they move toward detox/withdrawl, how those symptoms affect motivation to behavioural change. The psychological aspect of addiction and self sabatoge/harm. Addiction ambivalence and the idea of addiction 'in general' , the idea that at certain times people drink and claim to want to stop but don't actually want to stop, perhaps just trying to mitigate the consequences of not quitting. Those that drink , are physically depedent ,and have no desire to quit and all the gradations inbetween.
But as far as alcohol related issues are concerned, no one would argue that abstinence would cure all those ills related to alcohol consumption , yes ?

JeffreyAK

Yup. Abstain long enough and the alcohol-related issues go away. Now, are we perfect under the addiction? Probably not, and we may even have deeper issues to sort out that led us down the path that ended in addiction - trauma, for example, is a pretty common but not universal theme. But everyone else has their own issues too, whether or not they ever became addicts, so us former addicts aren't even special in that respect.

dwtbd

I certainly agree to the nonspecialness of formerly addicted people. Having been there and done that, I can 'relate' to people that have gone through it.

LBrain

well... I suppose we can evaluate and debate the pathology of one who does things under the influence or one who is addicted to something.
In lab settings, animals' behavior has altered due to being "addicted".

Is someone who is a kleptomaniac immoral? It can be described as impulse control disorder. Is a person with tourette syndrome immoral just because they have the propensity to utter profanities or other inappropriate (racist) remarks? It is beyond their control.

I can go further but I hope you get the point.

edit: I just read post #83 and I suppose that was where I was headed with this one.

silentrun

I think it is important to keep separate the act from the person. If you don't you start getting into shame which is unhealthy and immobilizing instead of guilt which can cause someone to change. For the longest time I would torture myself over wrongdoings that I had done and that had been done to me. It wasn't a good way to live for me and was the basis for all my grudge holding. I realize that the testosterone is high on this thread but this helped me deal with it.
Brené Brown: Listening to shame | Talk Video | TED.com

dwtbd

Lbrain
The short answer is that stealing is immoral. Those that steal are committing an immoral act.
Lying is immoral, but if a homicidal maniac knocks are your door and asks if your family is in the house, would lying to him be immoral? I'd say not.

brynn

Interesting discussion as usual...Morals: my morals, your morals, societal morals of western culture, and so on.

To thine own self be true. (That traditional program might use that quote, but it still totally rocks).

For ME, if I went out right now and drank, knowing everything I KNOW NOW about how destructive booze is for ME, then I would be engaging in an act against my own moral code. I know it in my heart, and as far as I'm concerned, that's the only thing that matters.
It might not be immoral for you....only you can know that.

All I know is that I know it's wrong for me. I put my life in jeopardy and other peoples lives in jeopardy when I drank, not to mention the worry and anxiety I caused those closest to me. I can't in good conscience live like that anymore. All I'm saying is that I'm making a moral judgement call for ME...not for anyone else. And that's the bottom line. Most people know when they are going against their own morals, and it causes a lot of internal friction and anxiety....not a fun way to live.

The rest of it is fun to think about and debate, but it really has nothing to do with ME being true to myself and what I know in my heart and mind to be right for me. I like the peace of mind being true to my moral code brings!

jazzfish

Polonius:Laertes:Hamlet Act 1, scene 3, 78–82

silentrun

Do you still want to drink Brynn? Without the right/wrong, moral/immoral, do you want that? I can say for the first 6 months or so I was dangerously close to being pulled back in. Once I had enough time in to wrap my head around "this is over" I felt relief that I might actually pull through. I don't look at drinking that way anymore. I still stay on it because I don't want to be in the 40% that relapse after making it this far. The longer I go and the more of my original self I get back the less sense it makes on any level.

brynn

Silent run....I have no desire to drink.
Beyond that, I don't drink. I made a commitment to never drink again and I will never change my mind.
I have no reason to go back to that former booze filled life as it holds nothing for me.
I like the person I am today. I am confident and empowered and purposeful.
I'm relieved I never have to drink again!
And I totally agree....getting ourselves back is awesome!

Jazz...thanks for posting that scene....one of my favorites! (English minor).
It's always kind of irritated me that people think that traditional program coined that phrase!

freshstart57

I think we all of us are works in progress, including the formerly addicted and the never addicted as well. We all have stuff that needs sorting including trauma. But not all who have been traumatized fell into addiction, so claiming that trauma needs to be addressed before sobriety can be attained is just backwards and seems to be an excuse for continued addiction.

Get sober first and most things will improve. From that position of uncoditional irrevocable sobriety, work on the rest of the stuff. Or not. The thing is, from this point on, this self improvement is detached from sobriety - that question has been answered.

anattaboy

I must say that the approach of AVRT made more sense to this former drunk BECAUSE I was/am quite steeped in the other program(s) for years and it is exactly the separation of drinking and everything else that made it click. Also, the word Nirvana means "Extinguishing of the fire by way of not providing fuel". AVRT is just that. Never will my addiction "live" again as there will be no drink to feed it. Of course alcohol was an uber-attachment from a Buddhist perspective but an attachment none the less. I've let got of it.
I'm really not so attached to AVRT anymore either as it was what I needed to make final jump at 13 days into a 10 day taper--t'was like a jolt. I'm actually not a fan of Trimpeys' dismissal of support groups. Altruism and giving back are the hallmarks of any realized being and this support helps teacher and student alike.

GerandTwine

This post presents a good opportunity to discuss AVRT.

Addictive Voice Recognition Technique DOES recognize the "difference between YOU the person and that other person you become as an addict." (See the RR definition of "addiction" below.) Please be aware that this "other person" has nothing to do with the under-the-influence person. It only has to do with the ambivalence the person has about the idea of drinking some more when sober. For instance, while I did have organic difficulties like hangovers, etc., the only "other" going on with my character and personality was this ambivalence about drinking some more. When not drinking, I was still who I was. This condition of ambivalence in "addiction" is what actually initiates the motivation to take advantage of AVRT. So, when I started using AVRT, splitting off the "AV" or "The Beast" so to speak, it had no greater impact on MY personal integrity and who I am than the impact learning to drive in England on the other side of the road would have on MY personal integrity and who I am. AVRT is a simple Technique of Recognition of an extremely specific unwanted tendency.

So, the difference between Unaddicted ME and Addicted ME is totally independent of, yet an important motivator towards, my using AVRT to intentionally create the difference between Recovered ME and my Beast by using AVRT with the Big Plan. The difference between Recovered Me and my Beast is like the difference between Me the human being and a rat trying to break through the top of its cage that is being slowly immersed in water (a futile single minded grasping for air (booze))

That "significant period of time" can be any time when alcohol free. In AVRT "a lot of 'splaining'" can be packaged very compactly into pledging the Big Plan "to significant others, employers, etc." In AVRT, that is considered the best approach to regaining trust. It might be interesting to see a study about the differences in reports of personal morality for a cohort of addicts, first reporting between bouts of drinking and then reporting after a "significant period of time" in recoveryism for some, and "a significant period of time" for others who used AVRT. Those changes, whatever they are, in people's morality consistent with science would be interesting.

Whatever that "change" may be, I believe, when there is no alcohol in an addicted person's bloodstream, he/she has a perfectly competent will in regards to making plans for the future use of alcohol. There seem to me to be two options. Either "Not right now, but who knows about later, I'll do everything to try to stay out of trouble or in recovery"; or, "NO, NEVER! It would be wrong for me to ever drink again. I will never drink again."

It was not until I made my Big Plan - I will never drink again - before I was certain that "all I can do is better" regarding my addiction. Before that I had no plan regarding the future use of alcohol, and was quite aware that I could STILL do WORSE instead of BETTER. But, like you, NOW I know "all I can do is better" solely because I have a Big Plan. So, however you did it, I congratulate you, as well.

I suppose I could have gotten a grip on quitting sooner "if I had been struck" with chemical dependency, but I recall years of making many risky yet quite hedonistic decisions about when and where to drink some more as the problems caused by drinking slowly ratcheted up and up.

Neither did I understand the Structural Model of Addiction, and how persistently "healthy" my Addictive Voice was in getting its booze. Yes, IT is completely focused on ITs own survival conning ME with getting more deep pleasure. Alas (says IT), or thank heavens(says ME), alcohol is unneeded for MY survival. I think when an addicted person learns what AVRT truly is, it becomes even more difficult to choose to remain addicted.

I have yet to find someone who can come up with an occasion when he/she drank with the intent of NOT experiencing the effect of alcohol crossing over the blood/brain barrier in his/her head. When that crossing takes place, organically, it's pretty much the same in everybody. AHHHhhhh, yesSSS! (ten minutes later) mmMMMMMMmmmm! HHHHhhhhhhaaaaaaexhalation with that wonderful organic solvent familiar stinging feeling going down and breathing out. That's Deep Pleasure! "Hey Bill? Pour one for everyone, on me! Game of pool?" or "I love these Foster Lager giant cans. Ahhh, those d**n Packers better win today!" or "Wow, it was a rough day. Honey, pour the martinis. (half hour later) Ahhhh Make another batch Honey" or ad infinitum...

Bending my morals to keep experiencing that Deep Pleasure was as "defective" as I got. I never accepted Recoveryism, the disease model, or that I became anything other than ambivalent about my drinking as "that other person". I will acknowledge that the ambivalence I experienced was very frustrating and exposed to myself (and some others who knew the truth) the extent I would go with full blown hedonism.

But once I switched 180 degrees from allegiance to the habit to I'm going to kill that habit, I knew I was back to behaving like myself - all the time.

This also meant (and is unrelated to the alcohol free "other self" I've been discussing) I was no longer temporarily absent from the universe while drunk with my corpus a menace to society.

Since you haven't had a drop of alcohol for years, and you say "all I can do is better", I'm guessing you have ended your recovery as well. Again, congratulations on getting on with life.

------

Three Rational Recovery definitions (from another thread two years ago.) I find it amazing how my holding to these three distinct definitions has clarified for me over many years what would otherwise have been a murky ill defined understanding of what's going on with excessive alcohol and drug use.

Greenwood618

So much wisdom here. This is the thinking of the successfully, permanently abstinent. This is the way people have prevailed over drinking problems for centuries. Positive self help. Personal responsibility.

GerandTwine

Hi SR,

I see Brynn has made a Big Plan, and that you have "had enough time in to wrap [your] head around "this is over" ".

Since we are in an AVRT discussion thread, I will ask, What are your plans for the future use of alcohol?

GT

silentrun

Do whatever the hell I have to not to get sucked backed into that BS. I have a plan in place for the F it's and I have already successfully used it. I have identified the You broke the spell and can moderate now as just leftover delusion. I am not sure how I would handle getting super depressed if something tragic happened and I decided life wasn't worth living.

JeffreyAK

Yes, I consider myself recovered, though with plenty yet to learn in life.

I don't agree at all with Trimpey's disparaging opinion of support groups, since I'd be dead without them and they save countless millions all over the world, or with many of his other opinions, but while putting one's addiction recovery first and keeping it in clear focus is critical for many (it was for me), I do agree that at some point it ought to end and one should move on.

Trying to help other folks is great, and I even considered completely changing careers and going back to school for a MSW a couple years ago, and I still facilitate a couple LifeRing meetings. But that is not what is keeping me sober at all. Not wanting to be drunk and not ever wanting to go back to that hell is enough for me.