Secular Forum Rules
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,474
Root Cause Solutions
The issues that keep arising here over time, apparently, seem to have little to do with Recovery Methods. Those arguments are the 'Effect'. Below is my take on the 'Cause'; the Catalysts for contention.
Dee posted an easy-to-understand request for voluntary cooperation in order to end contentiousness. Within ~1 day, to my Eye, this request was ignored. 'Over-Posters' are stating why they spell 'God' as they do, with a Capital 'G'. In a Secular Forum. Could not care less about Deity spelling. Another Poster asked, with incredulity, if it was expected that 'just stopping Drinking' actually worked' [paraphrased]. A tasteful answer was provided, and the Poster was gently reminded of the inappropriateness of his question in this Section.
Other Posters appear to want simply to argue. Voluntary compliance to refrain from such behavior is not working. IMO, the Root Problems stemming from this fundamental disrespect for this Forum Section have nothing to do with subsequent wrangling. The choice of Pronouns is an outcome of this need to be 'right'. Changing Pronouns doesn't address or solve that Root Problem.
I don't parachute into the 'Christians In Recovery' Section and Post about 'gawd', spelling it as my Atheist Pals elsewhere do. That's intentionally incendiary. Dee's request to respect the nature of the Secular Section was ignored. The solution: close a Thread. Huh? I'm not arguing the wisdom of closing contentious Threads. Instead, address the issue up front, and enforce compliance with Secular Forum Section protocol. It's too bad that the disrespectful force such a 'Sledgehammer' response fit for a Schoolyard.
It's easy to move Threads. If a Noobie posts about a certain Program not being for her, K.I.S.S.. Move the Thread. Why wait for the inevitable implosion generated by those looking for a fight? When inappropriate, non-Secular Posts are put up, remove them. Promptly. I don't believe this would take any longer than reading Threads daily, and then dealing with them once they implode. If voluntary compliance to this Forum Section Protocol worked, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Repeatedly.
Job #1, for those who seemingly have to 'parachute' in and repeatedly proselytize their 'superior' Recovery Method, is to understand what 'Secular' means:
sec·u·lar
ˈsekyələr/Submit Adjective
1. denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.
On a long Thread elsewhere, a Poster referred to 'Recovery Program Devotees', or something similar. That Thread was not closed due to non-PC Language. I have no problem with using such 'approved' Terminology if that helps keeps the peace. I have no such Personal History to reference. IMO, for Folks here to not be able to reference their Back Story of what hasn't worked for them is like someone in the 'Friends and Family' Section not being able to reference their prior, Gut-wrenching years of Personal AH or AW experience. An inevitable part of looking into Secular Alternatives is that Mainstream Recovery Programs might have not worked for those searching. To me, this is like saying 'enjoy our Pizza Parlor, but you're not allowed to acknowledge or comment on the smell of Garlic or spicy Tomato Sauce.' Simply stating that a Program did not work for them is a far cry from criticizing it. It is characterizing it. This odd situation is the unacknowledged 500 lb. Gorilla in the Secular Room. I say, create conditions by Rules change that allow discussing the 'Recovery Gorilla' in the Room.
I have no interest in defying the Rules. This whole situation of those parachuting in to proselytize in a clearly labeled Secular Section reminds me of someone blatantly ignoring Supermarket Signs at Checkouts for '15 Items Or Less'. When these Folks ignore Guidelines that help things run smoothly, things don't run smoothly. Contention erupts.
Last, I would seriously suggest considering a new Forum Section titled something like 'Secular Salon'. Reminiscent of the old Salons [Meetings] of the ~1920s where Folks got together to discuss Books, or Topics of the day. This suggested new Forum Section would abide by the more relaxed Rules of similar Sections. No Insults, etc.. Respectful discussion of Alt and Mainstream Recovery Programs would be allowed without the current Orwellian-style avoidance of 12 Step Language.
I'm not arguing for/against any given Recovery Method. I don't have a Dog in that Fight. I am arguing one or two levels up from that. I am arguing to permit civilized Libertarian Thinking about Recovery Programs.
Without forging something new, old problems will keep reoccurring cyclically.
Dee posted an easy-to-understand request for voluntary cooperation in order to end contentiousness. Within ~1 day, to my Eye, this request was ignored. 'Over-Posters' are stating why they spell 'God' as they do, with a Capital 'G'. In a Secular Forum. Could not care less about Deity spelling. Another Poster asked, with incredulity, if it was expected that 'just stopping Drinking' actually worked' [paraphrased]. A tasteful answer was provided, and the Poster was gently reminded of the inappropriateness of his question in this Section.
Other Posters appear to want simply to argue. Voluntary compliance to refrain from such behavior is not working. IMO, the Root Problems stemming from this fundamental disrespect for this Forum Section have nothing to do with subsequent wrangling. The choice of Pronouns is an outcome of this need to be 'right'. Changing Pronouns doesn't address or solve that Root Problem.
I don't parachute into the 'Christians In Recovery' Section and Post about 'gawd', spelling it as my Atheist Pals elsewhere do. That's intentionally incendiary. Dee's request to respect the nature of the Secular Section was ignored. The solution: close a Thread. Huh? I'm not arguing the wisdom of closing contentious Threads. Instead, address the issue up front, and enforce compliance with Secular Forum Section protocol. It's too bad that the disrespectful force such a 'Sledgehammer' response fit for a Schoolyard.
It's easy to move Threads. If a Noobie posts about a certain Program not being for her, K.I.S.S.. Move the Thread. Why wait for the inevitable implosion generated by those looking for a fight? When inappropriate, non-Secular Posts are put up, remove them. Promptly. I don't believe this would take any longer than reading Threads daily, and then dealing with them once they implode. If voluntary compliance to this Forum Section Protocol worked, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Repeatedly.
Job #1, for those who seemingly have to 'parachute' in and repeatedly proselytize their 'superior' Recovery Method, is to understand what 'Secular' means:
sec·u·lar
ˈsekyələr/Submit Adjective
1. denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.
On a long Thread elsewhere, a Poster referred to 'Recovery Program Devotees', or something similar. That Thread was not closed due to non-PC Language. I have no problem with using such 'approved' Terminology if that helps keeps the peace. I have no such Personal History to reference. IMO, for Folks here to not be able to reference their Back Story of what hasn't worked for them is like someone in the 'Friends and Family' Section not being able to reference their prior, Gut-wrenching years of Personal AH or AW experience. An inevitable part of looking into Secular Alternatives is that Mainstream Recovery Programs might have not worked for those searching. To me, this is like saying 'enjoy our Pizza Parlor, but you're not allowed to acknowledge or comment on the smell of Garlic or spicy Tomato Sauce.' Simply stating that a Program did not work for them is a far cry from criticizing it. It is characterizing it. This odd situation is the unacknowledged 500 lb. Gorilla in the Secular Room. I say, create conditions by Rules change that allow discussing the 'Recovery Gorilla' in the Room.
I have no interest in defying the Rules. This whole situation of those parachuting in to proselytize in a clearly labeled Secular Section reminds me of someone blatantly ignoring Supermarket Signs at Checkouts for '15 Items Or Less'. When these Folks ignore Guidelines that help things run smoothly, things don't run smoothly. Contention erupts.
Last, I would seriously suggest considering a new Forum Section titled something like 'Secular Salon'. Reminiscent of the old Salons [Meetings] of the ~1920s where Folks got together to discuss Books, or Topics of the day. This suggested new Forum Section would abide by the more relaxed Rules of similar Sections. No Insults, etc.. Respectful discussion of Alt and Mainstream Recovery Programs would be allowed without the current Orwellian-style avoidance of 12 Step Language.
I'm not arguing for/against any given Recovery Method. I don't have a Dog in that Fight. I am arguing one or two levels up from that. I am arguing to permit civilized Libertarian Thinking about Recovery Programs.
Without forging something new, old problems will keep reoccurring cyclically.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by Morning Glory 
It took me years to successfully open and maintain a secular forum and even longer to allow civil discussions on RR. The debates were so bad at one point I had to close down the forum. The rules are in place to protect your forum. Mocking other programs is not permitted and 12 step topics are not permitted.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 105
Originally Posted by MesaMan
... Other Posters appear to want simply to argue.
Usually my impression is that posters on the internet that become argumentative aren't "looking for a fight". They have passion about the subject that they are expressing inappropriately.
People who have a conscious agenda probably are not usually looking for a fight either. They think they are doing something good but are being inappropriate in the process.
Trolls are often people who are asking for help, but doing so in a confused way that is inappropriate.
The inappropriate behavior is inappropriate regardless of the motivation. But, some of the interaction can be deescalated by recognizing that the other person has "good" intentions.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
Mesa, I have worked secular and non scalar programs. As such, I find my view appropriate in both sections of the site. I don't parachute into this Forum with deity ideation, as to do so would only be to incite, which based on the rule is considered flaming and prohibited under 4.
I see the same thing in the non secular forums with more senior secular members. I welcome this, as I find a different perspective both valid and healthy, as challenging the consensus can be more important for critical thinking, something many of us self identify with.
From time to time these things come up and reiterating the playing rules is healthy, IMO. I am quite certain at some point there will be another post just like this from one of the Mods to gently remind everyone of the rules again. With turnover from our shared disorders where it is newcomers will need to understand and senior members may need a gentle reminder as well.
For me until rather recently, I did not want to argue but did want and need to be seen as having insight. It was self serving and inflated my ego temporarily and provided support that my recovery was moving forward...kind of like a Dr using their own medicne or drinking your own Kool Aide. I would see who liked my post or how many, lol! This has everything to do with my own insecurities, which are part of my disorders..This changed for me maybe a month ago and I no longer feel I need to argue a point with you or someone else for my views to be valid. This is just a way of saying I understand varied needs and was recently there myself. I do think this is part of therapy and getting well in a normal progression, so prohibiting would go against the spirit of a recovery forum and instead I agree the Mods are doing an excellent job of reminding us all of the framework to operate in.
BTW...I think your post and in general, you have much wisdom to share. I am not addressing you to argue, just provide a slightly different perspective.
I see the same thing in the non secular forums with more senior secular members. I welcome this, as I find a different perspective both valid and healthy, as challenging the consensus can be more important for critical thinking, something many of us self identify with.
From time to time these things come up and reiterating the playing rules is healthy, IMO. I am quite certain at some point there will be another post just like this from one of the Mods to gently remind everyone of the rules again. With turnover from our shared disorders where it is newcomers will need to understand and senior members may need a gentle reminder as well.
For me until rather recently, I did not want to argue but did want and need to be seen as having insight. It was self serving and inflated my ego temporarily and provided support that my recovery was moving forward...kind of like a Dr using their own medicne or drinking your own Kool Aide. I would see who liked my post or how many, lol! This has everything to do with my own insecurities, which are part of my disorders..This changed for me maybe a month ago and I no longer feel I need to argue a point with you or someone else for my views to be valid. This is just a way of saying I understand varied needs and was recently there myself. I do think this is part of therapy and getting well in a normal progression, so prohibiting would go against the spirit of a recovery forum and instead I agree the Mods are doing an excellent job of reminding us all of the framework to operate in.
BTW...I think your post and in general, you have much wisdom to share. I am not addressing you to argue, just provide a slightly different perspective.
Administrator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: CA
Posts: 10,681
If you see a problem post use the report button and let us know.
That's the quickest way to clear it up.
The rules set for the secular forum were the last resort, not the first.
We spent around 6 years trying everything else.
I allow some leniency with new posters in the secular forum.
Usually the older members keep it on the forum topic from there.
If that doesn't happen and it turns into a program debate it will be closed rather than delete posts and chop up the thread.
We move threads when possible, but sometimes there is no place to move it and sometimes it wouldn't put the OP in a good place.
I don't have time to read every thread when the posts are posted.
Sometimes I don't have time to eat breakfast until 8:30 at night.
Members here have done a great job monitoring this forum for a long time of peace by reporting posts that are off topic.
I'm always open to change, but as I said before, we already have a general forum that allows discussions over the differences in programs. We don't need another one. This forum is a safe place to post without the program debates.
That's the quickest way to clear it up.
The rules set for the secular forum were the last resort, not the first.
We spent around 6 years trying everything else.
I allow some leniency with new posters in the secular forum.
Usually the older members keep it on the forum topic from there.
If that doesn't happen and it turns into a program debate it will be closed rather than delete posts and chop up the thread.
We move threads when possible, but sometimes there is no place to move it and sometimes it wouldn't put the OP in a good place.
I don't have time to read every thread when the posts are posted.
Sometimes I don't have time to eat breakfast until 8:30 at night.
Members here have done a great job monitoring this forum for a long time of peace by reporting posts that are off topic.
I'm always open to change, but as I said before, we already have a general forum that allows discussions over the differences in programs. We don't need another one. This forum is a safe place to post without the program debates.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
i can well imagine who the posters are who would try to sabotage your threads in the secular section
i have only been here a short while on the forum and already know who the ring leaders are who try to keep posting controversial stuff trying to promote there own beliefs etc
i can understand your need for some rules to keep these posters at bay i just wish we had some rules in aa to keep them under lock and key also as there a dam pest in many meetings but there are no rules in aa so we can only hope one day they grow out of it,
i have only been here a short while on the forum and already know who the ring leaders are who try to keep posting controversial stuff trying to promote there own beliefs etc
i can understand your need for some rules to keep these posters at bay i just wish we had some rules in aa to keep them under lock and key also as there a dam pest in many meetings but there are no rules in aa so we can only hope one day they grow out of it,
Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Roseville, Ca
Posts: 35
I've been involved in secular programs for 8 years and just about every new person talks about the other programs HP, for me a secular program that just talks about secular is no different than a 12 step HP program, leave it all at the door imo
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