Disease... - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

sober4metoday · 03-02-2012, 12:29 PM

I have to admit, I am having a real problem with people stating that they have a disease when speaking of their alcoholism. It just goes against every grain in my being. Even when I was in the depths of my drinking I never thought of it as a disease.

I am all for people finding help through the method that works best for them - have it be AVRT, AA, Lifering, on their own, whichever. But I can't do the disease mentality. And I find myself getting irritated about it. I feel like it's a cop out. Alcohol isn't their fault, they have a disease. This isn't cancer or lupus or MD or MS. Sure, I can understand that substance abuse can certainly lead to disease (i.e. liver disease, kidney disease, etc.) but a disease in and of itself? I have trouble with that.

I think I need some perspective here. What am I not seeing?

Thanks.

Terminally Unique · 03-02-2012, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sober4metoday

I think I need some perspective here. What am I not seeing?

That the disease model is the disease.

sober4metoday · 03-02-2012, 12:38 PM

I tell ya TU, it's a lonely place over there in Newcomers sometimes!

Terminally Unique · 03-02-2012, 12:39 PM

Actually, I should say disease models, since there are more than one. You have the spiritual disease of original AA/Bill Wilson, the medical disease of AA/AMA/ASAM/NCA, and the psychological disease of Albert Ellis and other psychologists.

sober4metoday · 03-02-2012, 12:50 PM

Disease is good business I suppose.

langkah · 03-02-2012, 01:05 PM

Clearly it bothers you greatly that some organizations and fields of medicine see things differently than you do at this point.

Maybe write them and explain your reasons why they should come around to seeing things differently? That would be the proactive approach to dealing with your feelings of irritation about this matter.

They can't correct the last 60 years of course, but if you are persuasive enough perhaps they can fix this for you going forward, maybe even before you hit your first month sober.

Terminally Unique · 03-02-2012, 01:22 PM

No point in writing to organizations that have vested interests in an insurable, incurable disease. If you quote scripture pertaining to drunkenness, however, that usually gets disease proponents ranting and railing about how it isn't a moral issue.

janedoe82 · 03-02-2012, 01:42 PM

I agree, somewhat. I do believe that it (addiction) can be a disease as much as depression or anxiety is considered a disease. Just like heart conditions can be passed down through genetics, so can these psychological disorders. And someone can have a heart attack with no family history as much as someone can have depression or addiction without history. I think a lot of medicines, however, are the bogus aspects of our culture. It all stems from greed. You can take vitamins your whole life, or change your diet so you are no longer deficient. Drug companies then come out with fixes for diseases of all sorts, but never a cure. Can't make money when you've cured someone. I saw a documentary about a guy who found a cure for cancer, but no pharmaceutical company will back him and therfore, neither will the fda...all for money.

sober4metoday · 03-02-2012, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by langkah

Clearly it bothers you greatly that some organizations and fields of medicine see things differently than you do at this point.

Maybe write them and explain your reasons why they should come around to seeing things differently? That would be the proactive approach to dealing with your feelings of irritation about this matter.

They can't correct the last 60 years of course, but if you are persuasive enough perhaps they can fix this for you going forward, maybe even before you hit your first month sober.

People like you used to drive me to drink. It's so nice to be able to let it roll of my back when I'm attacked by defensive snarky people because I realize that it's them who have the problem, not me.

I was asking for insight, another perspective. What you delivered was a selfish, self-serving rant. Enjoy your day!

BackToSquareOne · 03-02-2012, 01:53 PM

That's a real paradox, in the Catholic faith getting drunk can be either a mortal or venial sin. A disease is not a sin though, last time I checked. In the Bible there was always a lot of wine drinking going on. Jesus even turned water into wine if they ran out. Complicated issue.

janedoe82 · 03-02-2012, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne

That's a real paradox, in the Catholic faith getting drunk can be either a mortal or venial sin. A disease is not a sin though, last time Ii gre checked. In the Bible there was always a lot of wine drinking going on. Jesus even turned water into wine if they ran out. Complicated issue.

I grew up in a rather strict catholic setting. Never heard of getting drunk being a sin. Psh, every priest I know may be going to hell, along with my entire family (including grampa the deacon!)

BackToSquareOne · 03-02-2012, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janedoe82

I grew up in a rather strict catholic setting. Never heard of getting drunk being a sin. Psh, every priest I know may be going to hell, along with my entire family (including grampa the deacon!)

I had an Uncle that was a priest, he used to call booze "Holy Water". He died an alcoholic. It is a sin though.

sober4metoday · 03-02-2012, 02:04 PM

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags.” Proverbs 28:7 declares, “He who keeps the law is a discerning son, but a companion of gluttons disgraces his father.” Proverbs 23:2 proclaims, “Put a knife to your throat if you are given to gluttony.”

janedoe82 · 03-02-2012, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne

I had an Uncle that was a priest, he used to call booze "Holy Water". He died an alcoholic. It is a sin though.

Well its a good thing I don't believe in sin! Only good and bad choices, but no eternal rewards or damnations.

langkah · 03-02-2012, 02:11 PM

'Jesus even turned water into wine if they ran out.'

That's the guy you want at a party that goes longer than expected. Maybe even two or three like him to cut the water-wine lag time, depending on how long the process takes.

Taking5 · 03-02-2012, 02:30 PM

The points about their being more money involved it it is a disease are right on, IMHO. And since there are s man more addicts that say, legionairre's disease guess where money gets funnelled?

That said, you don't have to "catch" a disease like malaria or the flu. Many diseases people are just born with, and they experience no symptoms until the right set of circumstances triggers the disease. Addiction is one f tha latter, IMHO.

soberlicious · 03-02-2012, 02:48 PM

I don't accept any of the disease models either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by langkah

They can't correct the last 60 years of course,

It doesn't matter how long the theories have been around. Length of time doesn't always equal reliable fact. I've posted about this before, but it was as recent as the 1970's that Autism was thought to be caused by a lack of bonding by the mother. The term "refrigerator mothers" was used (google if interested). This was accepted and disseminated by the medical community, for several decades. Children were taken from their mothers to be cured by the state. Women swore they loved their children, only to be told by professionals that they in fact did NOT love them, and had permanently disabled them because of it. Much damage was done to many, and children grew into adults without proper interventions. Of course, although today we still don't know the cause of Autism, we do know today, as a medical fact, that it does not stem from lack of bonding.
My point in all this is that accepting theory as fact can sometimes be dangerous. If the disease model of addiction in anyway enables some to continue in active addiction and even die, then a disservice has been done. When/if the medical community changes it's mind, an "oops....sorry" isn't enough.

langkah · 03-02-2012, 03:32 PM

This is like the weather, people complain but no one does anything about it.

Why not draft a petition? Send off some heartfelt letters? Get some tents, single burner butane stoves and boxes of ChexMix and do an Occupy AMA? No need to passively accept this just because those who have spent their professional lives dealing with it are telling you it's so, when you strongly feel they are wrong because you feel strongly about it.

Entire homes in neighborhoods have been repainted because a tiny but vocal group of people felt they didn't respond to or like the color very much. Think what you can do here with some effort.

It only takes one leader with minimal writing skills and a prickly attitude to get things going. It could very well snowball from there.

keepfinding2 · 03-02-2012, 03:36 PM

It's kind of a funny topic. It's not really a disease. It's just a theory. Anyone can become an alcoholic if they drink enough.

soberlicious · 03-02-2012, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by langkah

This is like the weather, people complain but no one does anything about it.

The OP was an invitation to discuss. I did that.

03-02-2012, 12:29 PM	#1 (permalink)
sober4metoday Recovered using AVRT Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 272	Disease... I have to admit, I am having a real problem with people stating that they have a disease when speaking of their alcoholism. It just goes against every grain in my being. Even when I was in the depths of my drinking I never thought of it as a disease. I am all for people finding help through the method that works best for them - have it be AVRT, AA, Lifering, on their own, whichever. But I can't do the disease mentality. And I find myself getting irritated about it. I feel like it's a cop out. Alcohol isn't their fault, they have a disease. This isn't cancer or lupus or MD or MS. Sure, I can understand that substance abuse can certainly lead to disease (i.e. liver disease, kidney disease, etc.) but a disease in and of itself? I have trouble with that. I think I need some perspective here. What am I not seeing? Thanks. __________________ Self-respect is the fruit of discipline... ~Abraham J. Heschel

03-02-2012, 12:38 PM	#3 (permalink)
sober4metoday Recovered using AVRT Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 272	I tell ya TU, it's a lonely place over there in Newcomers sometimes! __________________ Self-respect is the fruit of discipline... ~Abraham J. Heschel

03-02-2012, 12:50 PM	#5 (permalink)
sober4metoday Recovered using AVRT Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 272	Disease is good business I suppose. __________________ Self-respect is the fruit of discipline... ~Abraham J. Heschel

03-02-2012, 02:04 PM	#13 (permalink)
sober4metoday Recovered using AVRT Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 272	Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags.” Proverbs 28:7 declares, “He who keeps the law is a discerning son, but a companion of gluttons disgraces his father.” Proverbs 23:2 proclaims, “Put a knife to your throat if you are given to gluttony.” __________________ Self-respect is the fruit of discipline... ~Abraham J. Heschel

03-02-2012, 02:30 PM	#16 (permalink)
Taking5 Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: LA - Lower Alabama Posts: 4,264	The points about their being more money involved it it is a disease are right on, IMHO. And since there are s man more addicts that say, legionairre's disease guess where money gets funnelled? That said, you don't have to "catch" a disease like malaria or the flu. Many diseases people are just born with, and they experience no symptoms until the right set of circumstances triggers the disease. Addiction is one f tha latter, IMHO. __________________ It is easier to practice total abstinence than perfect moderation _______________________________________ Any quotes from the big book of AA are from the first edition, or are otherwise exempt from copyright infringement under the "fair use doctrine".

03-02-2012, 12:39 PM	#4 (permalink)
Terminally Unique Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________ Posts: 3,133	Actually, I should say disease models, since there are more than one. You have the spiritual disease of original AA/Bill Wilson, the medical disease of AA/AMA/ASAM/NCA, and the psychological disease of Albert Ellis and other psychologists.

03-02-2012, 01:05 PM	#6 (permalink)
langkah Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 1,141	Clearly it bothers you greatly that some organizations and fields of medicine see things differently than you do at this point. Maybe write them and explain your reasons why they should come around to seeing things differently? That would be the proactive approach to dealing with your feelings of irritation about this matter. They can't correct the last 60 years of course, but if you are persuasive enough perhaps they can fix this for you going forward, maybe even before you hit your first month sober.

03-02-2012, 01:22 PM	#7 (permalink)
Terminally Unique Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________ Posts: 3,133	No point in writing to organizations that have vested interests in an insurable, incurable disease. If you quote scripture pertaining to drunkenness, however, that usually gets disease proponents ranting and railing about how it isn't a moral issue.

03-02-2012, 01:42 PM	#8 (permalink)
janedoe82 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 13	I agree, somewhat. I do believe that it (addiction) can be a disease as much as depression or anxiety is considered a disease. Just like heart conditions can be passed down through genetics, so can these psychological disorders. And someone can have a heart attack with no family history as much as someone can have depression or addiction without history. I think a lot of medicines, however, are the bogus aspects of our culture. It all stems from greed. You can take vitamins your whole life, or change your diet so you are no longer deficient. Drug companies then come out with fixes for diseases of all sorts, but never a cure. Can't make money when you've cured someone. I saw a documentary about a guy who found a cure for cancer, but no pharmaceutical company will back him and therfore, neither will the fda...all for money.

03-02-2012, 01:53 PM	#10 (permalink)
BackToSquareOne Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bethlehem, PA. Posts: 1,334	That's a real paradox, in the Catholic faith getting drunk can be either a mortal or venial sin. A disease is not a sin though, last time I checked. In the Bible there was always a lot of wine drinking going on. Jesus even turned water into wine if they ran out. Complicated issue.

03-02-2012, 02:11 PM	#15 (permalink)
langkah Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 1,141	'Jesus even turned water into wine if they ran out.' That's the guy you want at a party that goes longer than expected. Maybe even two or three like him to cut the water-wine lag time, depending on how long the process takes.

03-02-2012, 03:32 PM	#18 (permalink)
langkah Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 1,141	This is like the weather, people complain but no one does anything about it. Why not draft a petition? Send off some heartfelt letters? Get some tents, single burner butane stoves and boxes of ChexMix and do an Occupy AMA? No need to passively accept this just because those who have spent their professional lives dealing with it are telling you it's so, when you strongly feel they are wrong because you feel strongly about it. Entire homes in neighborhoods have been repainted because a tiny but vocal group of people felt they didn't respond to or like the color very much. Think what you can do here with some effort. It only takes one leader with minimal writing skills and a prickly attitude to get things going. It could very well snowball from there.

03-02-2012, 03:36 PM	#19 (permalink)
keepfinding2 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 234	It's kind of a funny topic. It's not really a disease. It's just a theory. Anyone can become an alcoholic if they drink enough.

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