freethinking

There was someone who used to reply in this thread who you remind me of - he was very enthusiastic about all of it (and seemed to be a very nice guy), but there was something about his "vigor" on AVRT which made me nervous....but i never said anything. He did end up relapsing and I have no idea what happened to him - it seemed like he was 110% AVRT and then bam, he was gone. Your posts remind me slightly of him. I have no idea what the best way to say this is, and for all I know this will be deleted, but I think the right thing to do is speak up anyhow: "Slow and steady wins the race". And, no, I guess that is not the best quote since this isn't a race - but I guess I'm just trying to convey that while I think it is nice to be excited by new concepts which stimulate us, when it comes to sobriety I think it's important not to get ahead of the game too quickly. When I was first learning about AVRT (not that I use it wholly), I was here for a few months. Now I only come back once in a while, but I was here for quite a while before I even thought about moving on. Just try and take it easy - maybe I am misreading your posts, but they come across as slightly manic and that sort of alarms me when I read them.

IAmAbstinent

This sounds very much like 12-step/beast talk to me.

Please can you keep that kind of stuff to yourself as I have no intentions of 'whiteknuckling' with you.

This post kind of discourages me from contributing in this thread now, rather keeping it a 'private matter' as Trimpey states.

Terminally Unique

You will quickly realize, if you haven't already, that in our society, practically no one believes in your ability to quit for good, and very few people expect you to actually do so. Some people, notably others with an active Beastly side, will secretly want you to drink/use again, and may even encourage you to do so. In order to get a handle on this, you will have to recognize the Addictive Voice not only in your own thinking, but also in the society around you.

AVRT will allow you do just that, though, and soon enough, you won't get discouraged from what anyone else says. It is often helpful to consider yourself the first and only person in history to ever quit an addiction. By looking at it this way, what others say or do will have little bearing on what you do. Something to ponder: would you suddenly be "in relapse" if anyone else here, or even Jack Trimpey, got drunk again?

GerandTwine

As I became familiar with RR meanings of terms, I saw how logical and sensible the definitions were. I soon realized I had passed through the following conditions regarding drinking (and smoking pot):

A - Born as - Abstinent (Me = no) no internal conflicts
B - Tried out - Non-dependent drinking (Me = yes, The Beast doesn't exist) no internal conflicts
C - Evolved to - Dependent drinking (Me = yes, It = yes) The Beast is born, no AVRT, no internal conflicts, some external problem solving
D - Transitioned to - Addicted drinking (Me = no, It = yes) Strong internal and external conflicts
E - Made Big Plan - Abstinent (Me = Never, It is a quadriplegic) E is just like A, with the exception that AVRT makes what was an internal "conflict" simply an internal Recognition

As I thought about these conditions, I realized since I had done much experimentation, that I could not backtrack from C to B, and would not backtrack from D to C. So, I took the plunge with E and wow, was that once in a lifetime high dive arc through the air and into the pool refreshing.

Most people remain in condition A or B, although B may be abbreviated in some drug use. It's no big deal to get back to A from B.

Only I could know I had transitioned to condition D because it was based on a change in my own judgment that drinking ever again would be not be just a dangerous gamble, but it would be point blank wrong. For a while, I lied to family and friends about being in conditions D or E, while I was actually still in condition C, hiding getting drunk. That's how, later on, my Beast tried to take particular advantage of my drinking dreams with relapse anxiety.

Because they are unstable/unpredictable, conditions C and D can be, and often are, very short-lived as people move relatively quickly from A to E.

freethinking

Believe me, this is not something I intend on chasing you around this thread about - it's just something that to me, is screaming from your posts. But I did not mean to hurt your feelings - and while I don't know what at all you mean by 12-step talk, I will not mention this to you again (although I admittedly am glad I said it once) and am sorry it hurt your feelings.

freethinking

Oh brother, please tell me your are not implying that by posting what I did that I am secretly wanting/encouraging him to drink again? My comments have nothing to do with a beastly side - he seems to be really rushing things, and it just elicits a certain reaction from some of us. To say that everyone who comes on here and states they will never drink again will never drink again is naive - that is simply not the case as we've already seen several people state they will never drink again in this thread, and then drink - so at this stage in this ongoing thread, I felt the right thing to do was point out when someone seemed like they were rushing this rather than just sit by and watch someone speed through this and burn out. You may not like my approach or the way I word things, but you don't know me and I can at least assure you that whatever I say to people on this board is in the hopes they never have to go back to drinking. I wouldn't even wish that on George Bush.

Terminally Unique

No, it wasn't specifically addressed to your post, freethinking, more towards his remark about being discouraged by what other people say. It did occur to me to put a disclaimer in my response to that effect so you wouldn't feel a need to respond, but I decided not to. My general remark is accurate, though. Whether consciously or not, everyone and their brother is going to be undermining his confidence by telling him that he can't do it alone, that it's not over 'til it's over, etc. If he wants to beat this rap, he's going to have to learn to recognize all that for what it is — pure AV.

freethinking

OK, I am glad that it wasn't directed at me, thanks for clarifying.

On a side note, when I make reference to my husband that "we're never going there again" when we discuss how awful our lives were because of my drinking, I usually see a fleeting look of skepticism cross his face. can't really blame him - that being said, I do believe this thread should be a place where people can state they will never drink again and not have people question them on it. that was not my intent above.

Terminally Unique

Did you finish reading through the whole book and working through the exercises? I recommend reading through the book twice, although Part 3 could possibly be omitted the second time around. Part 3 has that transcript of an AVRT session with "Richard" on pages 274-291, which is definitely worth reading again, though.

IAmAbstinent

Im on part 3 now the family stuff. I noted where you pointed out to read the case of richard but am gonna read through the whole thing for thoroughness.

I have actually been reading through the old threads for a portion of the day today.

IAmAbstinent

I see you talking about exercises but not sure which ones you mean. Are they all in the book 2? I did the shifting thing last night and got some flour out to mimic some of the old powder and stared at it a while then threw it away.

Terminally Unique

Yes, the ACTION exercises are mostly in Book 2. I listed the ones I think are important in this post, remember?

• Action Exercises —

I think I also sent you some other links via Private Message, but if I didn't, just shoot me a PM and I will send them.

IAmAbstinent

I had some noticeable beast stirring coming back from the club last night- this was a common beast excuse to use when I'd had a bad night in the past.

At first I began reminding myself of the reasons I didn't want to take drugs again but I you said TU I soon realized this wasn't the best way of doing things since I realized doing this is justifying myself to my beast. As soon as I returned to my mantra 'it wants drugs, -I- never take drugs and will never change my mind' the feelings quickly subsided.

lilac0721

Glad to see there is such a lively thread discussing AVRT! I've tried to quit many times - AA, rehab (which is mostly AA in a controlled environment), and I sorta tried RR. I think my big plan didn't work because I didn't really let myself think through the big plan and listen to the reactions of the Beast. I'm going to read the book Rational Recovery again.

Today is day 3. The final day 3 for me. And I suppose there is really no need to count the days if I am never going to drink again.

kanamit

I came here around September time and quit with AVRT.

I have now read the book three times but I have picked up loads of important supplementary information from these threads.

I haven't posted in a couple of weeks as I'm busy with the challenges of life (after ten years of alcohol-induced procrastination I am now writing my first novel—something I've always dreamed of doing!).

Still after all this time, I just read somethkng new (the Law of Attribution).

I'm not saying I'll be here forever either but I'd hate myself for not at least trying to help others in the same way I was helped.

By the way, I think you misread freethinking's post. No hard feelings though, we're all here to help others learn AVRT.

IAmAbstinent

No biggy.

I've been thinking tho its best not to get in the habit of writing up every little thing on here anyhow as it could become like the support group issue.

----

Still stick by what I just wrote above however thought this one was worth mentioning.

Right after I posted the above comment I went to check my mail and it seems the usual suppliers of my drugs decided to send me the order which I specifically cancelled last week.

A shot of anxiety hit me but it certainly wasn't beast excitement- anxiety would have been more accurate which quickly subsided. It actually felt well caged as if the RR is already showing its worth. I calmly picked up the fresh package of drugs and walked down the street to proceeded to throw it in the bin. Nice feeling .

ProdigalReturns

You can make it.Go to Cabo and associate it with the beach,sun,and getting a great tan.Drink fruit juice and swim in the ocean.Really love the avatar.

PRODIGAL

(fruit juice,on the beach,getting a great tan hence the BIG SMILE on his face)

Terminally Unique

This is how it works; recognition and separation leads to calm. If you engage the AV, though, you end up "white knuckling." So, stay in your right mind, and try not to justify yourself to the Beast. The only justification it needs is your Big Plan, and the only word it understands is never. It really does not care what you think, anyway. It is a perverted survival drive, and it sees drugs as life-sustaining, like oxygen. I discussed this recently in the following thread:

• Problem with separation —

Instead of pointing north, towards life, though, the Beast points south, towards death. If you aren't willing to kill it, the Beast will probably end up killing you, slowly and painfully. So, the next time you feel IT struggle, just remember all the trouble it has caused you, and be glad that now IT is suffering. You can't actually kill the damn thing, but you can come close by starving it. It will try to convince you that you are suffering, but with AVRT, you know better.

Terminally Unique

The subject of whether the Beast really exists, or if it is really "you" comes up often enough that it warrants some discussion. People new to AVRT often have trouble thinking of the Beast as a separate entity, or at least a foreign one, and may initially consider it an irrational belief, which it is not. Indeed, the idea that the Addictive Voice (AV) amounts to irrational thinking that may be challenged, disputed, or reasoned against is probably the most common misunderstanding of AVRT.

To be sure, the Beast, which is just the desire to drink/use, physically resides within your body, and the AV will use the pronoun "I" in order to conceal the existence of the Beast, but consider that this was not always the case. The Beast did not always exist, after all, but rather was born. Few people would argue that they had a Beast, and an accompanying AV urging them to drink, drink, drink, prior to ever drinking in the first place.

Furthermore, since the Beast is doing what it knows beyond doubt is necessary for its own survival, the Beast is actually an autonomous, rational entity. It would be irrational for any entity to not try to survive, after all, and to the Beast, abstinence is akin to death. One might argue that the Beast is acting irrationally since it will eventually kill its host, and itself die in the process, but the Beast doesn't actually know or understand this.

Similarly, a drowning man may, in his desperate attempts to stay above water by clinging to anything that floats, inadvertently drown someone who is trying to save him, and himself die in the process, but trying to survive is not irrational. Therefore, there is no point in trying to reason with the Beast in order to point out how irrational it would be to drink/use, any more than it would be to try and reason with a drowning man in a panic.

IAmAbstinent

Now I've got to the end of the book I really want to applaud it.

Took me a while to really be sold on it but the more I read is the more I began to realize how great it is.

The main reason I say this is cos its such a no nonsense crash course/self help book. I love info delivered to me in such precision format like this so it really 'dug' it. Now of course theres alot of trimpeys idiosyncratic ranting etc. but the main core of the book is is an essential program for abstinence.

I can feel my ACE growing by the minute .

I must thank you personally TU for forwarding me the link for the book, what a sublime recommendation!