freethinking

You're right on all counts above. Thank you so much for your feedback - it was very helpful to me actually. I'm glad you're "here".

kanamit

Here's a potentially interesting facet to AVRT; I don't believe it's been discussed yet.

I wonder if many lurkers here are contemplating using AVRT for moderation. What if one were to create a Big Plan:

On face value, it seems like a good idea. But would it work?

I don't ask this for myself; as someone who will never drink again the idea is pure Beast and therefore totally academic. However, in Googling AVRT I did find a web page that suggests such a notion. To me it seems like a bad idea because:

1. If you need to go to these lengths to moderate, you are most likely better off abstaining
2. You would keep your Beast extremely active and alive if it was getting regular fixes

I thought this might be worth discussing since I'm sure it crosses some people's minds who are new to AVRT.

I know for personal experience, I bought the Allen Carr book with the intention of using it for one month only. Suffice to say it does not work like that.

Terminally Unique

I posted these responses in another thread, but I think they are important to this general discussion of AVRT, so I am posting links to them here for reference.

1. Stream of Consciousness / Conveyor Belt Analogy —
   
   
2. Proximal vs. Distal Causes in AVRT —

Terminally Unique

You don't need to wonder.

No, it wouldn't work, not once the Beast has been born. Moderation is like foreplay to the Beast, just enough to get turned on, but not quite enough to get completely drunk, which is what it really wants. The Beast likes the idea of moderation, however, because with just a few drinks, your judgement will be impaired, and it will likely get the upper hand on you. The Beast also likes the idea of tentative abstinence — quitting temporarily to see how it goes — because, as you note, that just keeps it alive and kicking with hope. Ideas of tentative abstinence or moderation are Addictive Voice, pure and simple, since both blatantly suggest future drinking.

This is discussed in "The Rationale for Abstinence" on pages 123-126 of RR: TNC, which covers The Crossover Effect, and in "Moderation, anyone?" on pages 80-82 of The Art of AVRT.

kanamit

Thanks for that.

I know RR:TNC does cover the subject of moderation but I figured a lot of people reading these threads have yet to get the book. I doubt I can link to it but when you Google AVRT there is a page that ranks quite highly about using AVRT to achieve alcohol-free days. Googling something you're new to is a given these days; I just didn't want people to be led astray.

As always, you've answered it 100 times better than I could.

I thought perhaps using something as absolute as AVRT for moderation is like trying to demolish a multi-story building but wanting to keep one of the upper rooms intact.

Terminally Unique

I know which page you are talking about, from a harm reduction site which is not against controlled drinking, or even replacing one drug with another. They suggest a 'modified' version of AVRT in order to use it only on your 'off' days. It sounds clever on the surface, and no doubt many people who see the word 'never' consider doing that very thing, but given the nature of AVRT, it won't work too well. It does show that RR is not entirely wrong in not letting others officially offer services called 'AVRT', though — people will inevitably change it to suit their own vision of recovery. Good topic, though.

RobbyRobot

Yay me. I now have in my hands "Rational Recovery" and "The Small Book".

It will be cool to contribute to this thread from a first hand experience.

Terminally Unique

Note that Rational Recovery no longer uses or recommends "The Small Book," which only contains about 25 pages of very rudimentary AVRT. The "Rational Recovery: TNC" book is meant to be a replacement for TSB, and explains AVRT in detail.

UofI2008

I really like this. Did this to my beast the other day. It's amazing what you can do if you apply these principles even when the beast is pretty quite and not strong in his attempts. I could walk into a liquor store and not have a problem now. I don't drink, ever. Period. No questions, I just don't.

CleoAK

I made my big plan today. Yay. I appreciate all the pages of discussion, you guys are prolific! I have always believed that I need to live in reality and part of that is being able to be around my previous DOC without needing it or it bothering me. I did this for a long time quite easily. I was trying to work out what changed. I think 1) I had never heard of the AV concept and so was not aware of how to handle it 2) I got maybe too confident? The beast found a way in, that sneaky bugger. I used to think I needed to deal with my inner demons before I could really be fixed, but I think that is also the beast/AV talking in my ear. I like the idea of myself as a forever non drinker. I will never drink again. Its a hard sentence to type at first as my little voice (as I like to call it) whispers, wow are you sure? But the techniques I have read from you all were what I used to practice but I forgot. Thank you for reminding me and sharing the tools that have helped so many of you. In some ways it seems so simple.

CleoAK

ok, I wanted to ask something too. In my quest to become a non drinker I went to many different councilors. One told me that if I put myself in a situation where there is alcohol that I am deliberately putting myself in a situation where I can relapse. not today or tomorrow perhaps but I am making that choice or I am following that voice to make bad decisions and come closer to the abyss. To me once I make the decision to be a forever non drinker, where I go should be irrelevant, If I am in that situation and my beast/av starts talking I just need to tell it to shut up. Do you think that subconsciously I could be setting myself up for failure? It was just an interesting perspective and one I don't think I believe now I have thought it through. I would just need to ignore the voice... or am I justifying unwise behavior as that person suggested. Thoughts?

Terminally Unique

Yes, it would seem we are indeed prolific. We'll probably have to start "Part 4" very soon.

With AVRT, you'll be able to walk through a distillery or sleep with a bottle of gin under your pillow if you have good reason to do so, without any fear of 'relapsing'.

This is the common reaction to the AV, but you'll soon learn that the more you talk back to it, the more you'll struggle, and it won't accomplish anything. There are a couple notable exceptions, but in general, with AVRT, we try not to talk back to the AV. Get the RR book and read through it, as well as this thread from the beginning. That will answer many of your questions.

Short answer — No.

Long answer — Only if you fail to recognize the AV.

Terminally Unique

You seem to be making very good progress, UoI. Believe it or not, eventually, you won't have to do much of this at all — it will become second nature, almost reflexive. It may seem from some of my posts that I still talk in my head all the time, but I actually have to put some effort into 'remembering' what it used to feel like in the beginning when responding on here. These days, when the AV pops up, I usually just think 'Beast' and the AV falls silent. Instant detachment.

RobbyRobot

Hey guys,
Okay, so I'm happily reading "Rational Recovery: The New Cure." Got a question:

I'm not sure I agree with that, as yet anyways. Reminds me of my struggle to come to my own understanding of an HP -- and in AA it was suggested to me that half-measures don't work kinda thing, you know?

I had to fully believe or I risked a relapse I was told -- well, I discovered a way around my having to be "fully believing" that my HP had to be a literal GOD. I wont get into that right now, but the above quote reminds me of those days.

Question: Why and how is a doubt in AVRT the same as a doubt in myself?

I'll continue reading of course, and I may find the answer in the book itself, but thought I would share this because it reminds me of the BB Thumpers, LOL.

Cheers!

CleoAK

Thanks for the responses TU. I have ordered the book. I wish they did the ebook. I like instant things! I think for someone who is so used to other methods of thinking about this, the I will never drink again mindset is fearful and scary to think about at first, especially in regards to failure. For me I like the absolute of it. However it is easy to have those niggling doubts that ask why this time is different. I have been told so many times that relapse is part of the road to recovery. Its definitely a different way of thinking.

Terminally Unique

This should become more clear as you read through the book, but in the logic of AVRT, all self-doubt in one's ability to abstain unconditionally and for life is Addictive Voice. I alluded to this way back when April was having doubts about AVRT, although I didn't know that I got it from page 41.

• AVRT is just "you" —

AVRT is patterned after the Addictive Voice itself — which is ruthless and unforgiving in order to maintain the addiction — effectively matching the Addictive Voice point for point. As such, AVRT is also ruthless and unforgiving towards anything that sustains the addiction. Self-doubt in one's ability to beat the addiction necessarily helps to maintain it. It also obviously suggests future drinking/using, which, by definition, is AV.

Terminally Unique

Yes, it would be nice if they sold it as an e-book for the Amazon Kindle, but that is usually up to the publisher. In the meantime, you have the crash course, the excerpts available online, and about 1450 posts in these threads to go through.

This, of course, is just your Addictive Voice. The AV is saying "never say never to the possible future use of alcohol and drugs," because it will indeed be very scary — for the Beast.

Yes, it definitely is different, but that is a good thing. AVRT is a kick ass and take names, 'recovery with an attitude' approach that goes straight for the jugular and gets the job done. It has a bit of a steep learning curve, but only initially, and it quickly builds momentum. You certainly have to spend some time in learning it, but the amount of time it takes to recover with AVRT is a drop in the bucket compared to other approaches.

IAmAbstinent

Thought I'd check in...

It's interesting I havent been noticing beast activity much recently, seems to be getting less and less since having made the big plan-
ACE?

Anyhow of course we should not get complacent and be ready for beast attacks with the AVRT militia waiting in the wing but it's definitely noticeably less recently.

I'm thinking though its like if your enemy knew you were heavily fortified they wouldn't bother attacking after a while.

Terminally Unique

I_am_A,

Keep in mind that recognition allways follows an incident of Beast activity. This means that AVRT is passive, and does not require defensive manuevering. You can think of AVRT as a Chess game, where the Beast plays white, and makes the first move.

You play black, but instead of countering with another move, you simply pull the game board out from under the Beast, and refuse to play. Of course, the Beast will go back and set the game board up again, hoping that you'll play at a later time.

What you are experiencing is not uncommon. The Beast has taken a beating from your Big Plan and your subsequent refusals to play the game. You can bet that It is busy setting up the chess pieces again, though, so to speak. If you want though, you can play dirty and attack your Beast while it's down.

Pull up some YouTube videos of movie scenes where someone is having a blast getting high on your favorite stuff. The Beast probably won't be able to resist getting excited and piping up. When it does, switch into your right mind, re-affirm your Big Plan, drive the Beast into the ground, kick it in the ribs, and stomp on its head with both feet.

soberlicious

.
I suppose it's a possible theory raised in a clinical setting....as far as accepting it as fact...um, no.
I don't drink. I am around alcohol and people drinking it quite often. I have no desire to drink. If I ever have a passing thought, it's just that....a weird, out-of-the-blue thought that requires no action, reaction, examination, dwelling, etc. It is what it is. It came, it went.

IamA, I have no working knowledge of chess, but I agree with TU about not engaging with the AV. I often use a tennis analogy. If I stop lobbing the ball back, just put my racket down and walk away, the game is over.