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Old 02-10-2012, 05:20 AM   #421 (permalink)
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Now I've got to the end of the book I really want to applaud it.

Took me a while to really be sold on it but the more I read is the more I began to realize how great it is.

The main reason I say this is cos its such a no nonsense crash course/self help book. I love info delivered to me in such precision format like this so it really 'dug' it.
I think it is remarkable that the book is 15+ years old and, although there are probably some tweaks to be made, it hasn't needed to be revised. Jack Trimpey really did a good, thorough job on this; I regard it as one of the most important self-help books ever written.

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Now of course theres alot of trimpeys idiosyncratic ranting etc.
I think based solely on RR:TNC there really isn't any ranting. Rather, there is some important deprogramming—and he needs people to understand that recovery group meetings and AVRT are like oil and water.

If you read his blog though, there are some quite heated statements on there.
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:52 AM   #422 (permalink)
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I think based solely on RR:TNC there really isn't any ranting. Rather, there is some important deprogramming—and he needs people to understand that recovery group meetings and AVRT are like oil and water.
He does have about 45 pages of straight up deprogramming, after the overview and prior to "AVRT: The Book Course" in Part II, in the chapters aptly titled "An Adjustment of Attitude" and "The Recovery Hall of Mirrors: Let's Shatter the Illusions." Part III, after the main book course, is mostly a call for reform, which may or may not interest people who just want to work on their own addiction.

I suppose that if someone had never been exposed to addiction treatment or recovery groups before, they would be able to skip over all that. Most of the people who end up at RR have had extensive exposure to one or both before, though, and didn't fare too well. So, even though those who haven't been through it won't quite understand, he kind of has to address that.
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Old 02-10-2012, 12:16 PM   #423 (permalink)
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Hmm my beast just decided to kick up pretty wildly at a quite unexpected place.

I was just hanging out at the train station and being a friday evening everyone was just coming into the city and many were already drinking in bars- ie THE PARTY WAS JUST GETTING STARTED .

Beasty decided to kick up by saying 'look at all the fun you're missing out on, just imagine what it would feel like with some amphetamine in you coming out to enjoy the nightlife with all these fine folks!'. I am able to laugh about my beast's sneaking tricksterish hustle now I've returned home and the desire has passed. In hindsight this is just like the examples in the book where it describes 'slippery situations' and such of drinking holes seeming like wonderfully cheery establishments via the beast's appraisal.

I must say I did indulge a little whiteknuckling with it again with stuff like 'but it would make me feel ill for days even weeks after'. Although this seems sound logically I noticed that it isn't effective in the 'heat of the moment' because beasty is trying to appeal to the emotions.

So again I had to step it up a gear by screaming in my mind 'BIG PLAN BIG PLAN F***ING BIG PLAN'. Seemed to drown the beast out after a bit .

My beast initially scoffed whilst reading the 'dogmatic' nature of RR but now -I- see how it's certainly important as one of the main weapons in the arsenal.
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Old 02-10-2012, 03:20 PM   #424 (permalink)
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I was just hanging out at the train station and being a friday evening everyone was just coming into the city and many were already drinking in bars- ie THE PARTY WAS JUST GETTING STARTED...
Next time you see this sort of thing, try 'shifting' back and forth between your perspective and your Beast's perspective. See pages 202-204 of "RR: TNC" for reference.
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Old 02-10-2012, 03:38 PM   #425 (permalink)
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Ye I was doing that too...

I havent found it particularly helpful thusfar tho.
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Old 02-10-2012, 03:55 PM   #426 (permalink)
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Beasty decided to kick up by saying 'look at all the fun you're missing out on, just imagine what it would feel like with some amphetamine in you coming out to enjoy the nightlife with all these fine folks!'.
Notice that the AV addressed you in the second person here, which is significant. When IT talks to you this way, change the pronouns around, and stay in your right mind. Remember also the law of attribution. For example, just changing what the AV said as follows should make it fall silent very quickly.
"Look at all the fun IT is missing out on. I bet IT is upset. Poor thing. I'm not missing out on anything, though, because I never use, and since addictive desire is not me, but the Beast, I don't even want to use."
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Old 02-10-2012, 11:15 PM   #427 (permalink)
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How would you sum up the difference in a Beast's position when using you, we and I? I get the impression it uses them in that order. I.e. "you" is subtle but if you resist that, "we" are in it together. Failing that it poses as me and uses "I".
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:45 AM   #428 (permalink)
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Thanks

Thank you for posting these threads. I will look further into this technique. I have always recognized my "addictive voice," but have always given in. The present "me" never cares what the future "me" will have to endure because of "present me's" actions. It can be extremely frustrating to be so dissociative with one's very state of existence.
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:53 AM   #429 (permalink)
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Thank you for posting these threads. I will look further into this technique. I have always recognized my "addictive voice," but have always given in. The present "me" never cares what the future "me" will have to endure because of "present me's" actions. It can be extremely frustrating to be so dissociative with one's very state of existence.
Get the book and then read all three threads. You won't regret it!
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Old 02-11-2012, 12:14 PM   #430 (permalink)
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How would you sum up the difference in a Beast's position when using you, we and I? I get the impression it uses them in that order. I.e. "you" is subtle but if you resist that, "we" are in it together. Failing that it poses as me and uses "I".
"I" is the default for the Addictive Voice, as in "I want a drink." This is where most people linger, prior to ever recognizing the AV, and prior to separation. In this state, they are one with the Beast, and believe that what the Beast wants is what they themselves want.

After one makes a Big Plan, though, the I/It split occurs, and the Beast has a little problem, since the conscious "I" no longer drinks. At that point, the AV will start to address you in the second person, or try to coax you with the third person plural, as in "we deserve a drink," or "let's get a drink."

(If anyone doubts whether there is actually a second persona in there, ask yourself what all this "we", "let's", and "you" business is about. Isn't it a little strange to talk to yourself that way?)

Of course, addressing you in the second person ("you") is not very conspicuous, since the Beast's cover is essentially blown. This is why I said it was significant. The split has obviously occurred at that point, and the Beast is on the defensive. It isn't surprising that the AV will try to fall back to "we" and the default state of "I" that existed prior to separation, though. The AV has been using "I" the longest, after all.
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Old 02-12-2012, 12:13 PM   #431 (permalink)
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We / Let Us = first person plural. Anyway, not a drink of alcohol of any sort since 22 August 2011 thanks to RR, AVRT, and TU. I wonder how many people's lives you have changed, TU. Other than mine, I mean. Thanks.
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Old 02-12-2012, 12:28 PM   #432 (permalink)
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We / Let Us = first person plural. Anyway, not a drink of alcohol of any sort since 22 August 2011 thanks to RR, AVRT, and TU. I wonder how many people's lives you have changed, TU. Other than mine, I mean. Thanks.
Thanks. I also should have written "[the AV] addressing you in the second person is not very inconspicuous."
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:00 PM   #433 (permalink)
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We / Let Us = first person plural. Anyway, not a drink of alcohol of any sort since 22 August 2011 thanks to RR, AVRT, and TU. I wonder how many people's lives you have changed, TU. Other than mine, I mean. Thanks.
I'll bet there's plenty more nervous Beasts pacing around , too;
......knowing , "dang there's real trouble ahead "

TU, thanks for your rational clear thinking. You've clarified plenty, for me.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:03 PM   #434 (permalink)
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I'll bet there's plenty more nervous Beasts pacing around , too;
......knowing , "dang there's real trouble ahead"
LOL. No doubt.

AVRT scares the hell out of Beasts, and they often run for cover initially. I was reluctant to put Wonderland's Beast on the spot so soon, since she hasn't read the RR book yet, but this exchange is a case in point. For better or worse, AVRT sometimes requires persistent, patient questioning in order to draw out the Beast and expose the Addictive Voice. Hopefully she won't take it personally and decide to come back.

Some lurkers probably just read this thread, and then go on their way, having no desire to post. Others, though, are probably quite conflicted as they read through the posts. I can just imagine what's going through their minds...

Lurker:
"Maybe I should post on that AVRT thread, those people seem to be kicking their addictions."
Lurker's AV:
"I don't know, those AVRT people seem like big meanies. Maybe we should post on a more supportive thread instead."
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Old 02-12-2012, 07:30 PM   #435 (permalink)
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I am not sure that you were listening to Wonderland's beast, TU. It didn't seem to me that Wonderland was looking forward to being able to drink if and when some chemical imbalance were to be corrected. I thought it was more along the lines of the common question that is asked in early sobriety - why do I drink too much? Would I not want to drink (at all maybe) if my serotonin levels were good and all neurotransmitters were just fine, thanks very much?

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
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Old 02-12-2012, 08:05 PM   #436 (permalink)
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I thought it was more along the lines of the common question that is asked in early sobriety - why do I drink too much? Would I not want to drink (at all maybe) if my serotonin levels were good and all neurotransmitters were just fine, thanks very much?
Yes, I know, and most people do have those questions, but it is also the nature of the Beast to send people on wild goose chases looking for hidden causes of addiction. Some people can and do literally spend years trying to fix their 'underlying issues', all the while never actually quitting, or as in the case of certain therapies (REBT, for example)*, hoping to be able to drink moderately once they do fix those issues. AVRT intentionally avoids all of that and says "quit first, then work on your issues."

* See the REBT-based "When AA Doesn’t Work for You: Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol" by Albert Ellis for a case in point on the 'holy grail' of moderation.
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:29 AM   #437 (permalink)
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random confession

the past few times i have been around alcohol, i've been around people who are making *drinks*. normally, beer and wine do not appeal to me - but the past 2 times i have been around these g*ddamn pomegranate martinis, i have had a craving. i went to a friend's house for a movie night, and there was a bottle of this stuff out that i've always wanted to try. the thought actually crossed my mind "you could have ONE SIP just to try it". i didn't do it, but i've been feeling unsettled about the whole thing and just felt like sharing. admittedly, in neither situation, did i identify the addictive voice. i was at one with these thoughts, which is why i suspect they are still bothering me. thanks for "listening".
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Old 02-13-2012, 01:33 PM   #438 (permalink)
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normally, beer and wine do not appeal to me - but the past 2 times i have been around these g*ddamn pomegranate martinis, I have had a craving.
See the problem? There is no separation there. Did you have a 'craving', or was it that slimy parasite inside you, aka the Beast?

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i went to a friend's house for a movie night, and there was a bottle of this stuff out that i've always wanted to try. the thought actually crossed my mind "you could have ONE SIP just to try it".
Notice that the AV used the pronoun "you" here. The Beast was talking to you, which is significant. Although the Beast tried to pull a fast one, it was nevertheless on the defensive, pleading and begging, rather than disguising itself as you. If it were really you thinking that, wouldn't you have instead thought "I could have ONE SIP..."? (Of course, if the AV did use "I", you would use Addiction Diction to change the pronouns around to "IT")

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i didn't do it, but i've been feeling unsettled about the whole thing and just felt like sharing. admittedly, in neither situation, did i identify the addictive voice. i was at one with these thoughts, which is why i suspect they are still bothering me.
There is no need to be bothered by those thoughts. They already passed. You just need to add the experience to your knowledge base, and stay in your right mind the next time, objectifying the AV if it pipes up. The AV is persistent, but it ultimately has only so many variations on a theme that it can resort to, which puts the odds in your favor long term. As always, set your confidence level for lifetime abstinence arbitrarily at 100% — all self-doubt is Addictive Voice.
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Old 02-13-2012, 01:36 PM   #439 (permalink)
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Old 02-13-2012, 01:38 PM   #440 (permalink)
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