Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion
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I wonder if the preference for reasoning versus absolutism comes down to temperament. It is often said that addicted people are "musturbators" - they think in absolutes such as "I must do this" or "I have to do this." Indeed, CBT/REBT is in large part a way to address these types of irrational beliefs, and is therefore a large component of SMART Recovery.
As Tom Horvath, President of SMART recovery wrote once,
Experience also showed me that to even contemplate the reasons for drinking versus not drinking while having an urge was doomed to failure. Before I was even half-way through my Cost-Benefit Analysis, I would be three-quarters of the way to the liquor store. I was at one point able to do this, but by the end, any "thinking" about why I shouldn't drink would inevitably lead to some ridiculous rationalization for drinking, or at the very least not produce a sufficient reason not to drink which would deter me.
This is excerpted from a Jack Trimpey / Albert Ellis Debate (1994) on AVRT, which pretty much sums up the difference between AVRT and a "reasoning" approach, in my opinion.
As Tom Horvath, President of SMART recovery wrote once,
"So at a typical SMART Recovery meeting, in addition to members doing their CBAs (cost benefit analysis), they are also doing their ABCs (Activating event, Belief, emotional and/or behavioral Consequence). They are watching out for musturbation, awfulizing, and catastrophizing."
In my case, I simply could not get past this. I knew that I simply had to quit drinking, and no amount of analysis of my irrational beliefs was going to change my mind on this. There was no way that I was going to accept that this "musturbation," as pertained to my addiction, was an irrational belief, that I had to discard it, or that I had to think better of myself or stop damning myself. To do so would simply produce a self-accepting drunk ("don't be so hard on yourself, it's only a slip, you're not a bad person"), which would only lead to further drinking.Experience also showed me that to even contemplate the reasons for drinking versus not drinking while having an urge was doomed to failure. Before I was even half-way through my Cost-Benefit Analysis, I would be three-quarters of the way to the liquor store. I was at one point able to do this, but by the end, any "thinking" about why I shouldn't drink would inevitably lead to some ridiculous rationalization for drinking, or at the very least not produce a sufficient reason not to drink which would deter me.
This is excerpted from a Jack Trimpey / Albert Ellis Debate (1994) on AVRT, which pretty much sums up the difference between AVRT and a "reasoning" approach, in my opinion.
"AVRT declares that the sole cause of all substance addiction is the Addictive Voice, which is the cognitive-emotive expression of an immutable, substance-specific appetite for the pleasure produced by those substances. The Addictive Voice is accepted as a permanent feature of one's psyche, partitioned off from the "true self" through a number of simple dissociative techniques, and then observed rather than acted upon...
In AVRT, there are no conditions for abstinence or for relapse, nor are there any triggers, warning signs of relapse, psychiatric diagnoses, or thresholds of tolerance, that suffice to justify or explain why one would choose to self-intoxicate. AVRT is a mental sorting skill - a filter - that prevents any further use of alcohol or drugs, regardless of "disposing factors." It is completely independent from all philosophies, schools of psychology, and religious doctrines. Indeed, those epistemologies and methodologies, when posed as a primary means to achieve abstinence, may be properly identified as the Addictive Voice itself...
AVRT creates a combative, oppositional attitude patterned after the Addictive Voice itself, and it is not a contemplative, reasoning, approach like REBT."
In AVRT, there are no conditions for abstinence or for relapse, nor are there any triggers, warning signs of relapse, psychiatric diagnoses, or thresholds of tolerance, that suffice to justify or explain why one would choose to self-intoxicate. AVRT is a mental sorting skill - a filter - that prevents any further use of alcohol or drugs, regardless of "disposing factors." It is completely independent from all philosophies, schools of psychology, and religious doctrines. Indeed, those epistemologies and methodologies, when posed as a primary means to achieve abstinence, may be properly identified as the Addictive Voice itself...
AVRT creates a combative, oppositional attitude patterned after the Addictive Voice itself, and it is not a contemplative, reasoning, approach like REBT."
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Is there any empirical evidence as to the efficacy of AVRT?
If I understand correctly, AVRT requires that one pick a date on which one makes a solemn promise never to drink/use again for whatever reason. I'm just wondering if anyone has ever tracked AVRT users to determine at the very least if any of them ever break the promise. It would seem that a program that makes no allowance whatsoever for relapse might not adequately address how one might begin again after relapse.
If I understand correctly, AVRT requires that one pick a date on which one makes a solemn promise never to drink/use again for whatever reason. I'm just wondering if anyone has ever tracked AVRT users to determine at the very least if any of them ever break the promise. It would seem that a program that makes no allowance whatsoever for relapse might not adequately address how one might begin again after relapse.
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Originally Posted by MickeyAnMeisce 
If I understand correctly, AVRT requires that one pick a date on which one makes a solemn promise never to drink/use again for whatever reason. I'm just wondering if anyone has ever tracked AVRT users to determine at the very least if any of them ever break the promise. It would seem that a program that makes no allowance whatsoever for relapse might not adequately address how one might begin again after relapse.
Looked at through the lens of AVRT, though, the question "What if I do decide to drink/use again, what then?" would be identified as the Addictive Voice itself, since it predicts future drinking/using. Still, some do certainly drink/use again. There is a lapse/relapse reconstruction sheet on pages 177-179 of the RR book, which is intended to identify how/why one was not able to dissociate from the AV.
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Originally Posted by MickeyAnMeisce
If I understand correctly, AVRT requires that one pick a date on which one makes a solemn promise never to drink/use again for whatever reason.
There are two "versions" of AVRT, so to speak. In the first, the "Big Plan" is simply a decision on permanent abstinence, and the reasons for deciding on permanent abstinence are left up to the individual, and may certainly vary from person to person. One person my decide not to drink/use again because if they do, they will lose their family, while another may do so for more materialistic reasons, such as a desire to get ahead in business.
In the second variation on AVRT, though, drinking/using, in and of itself, is viewed as wrong, in the moral sense. I myself certainly balked at this suggestion initially, but if you can get yourself to accept that for you, drinking/using is not only immoral, but also the most immoral act of all, it can be prove extremely effective against the AV.
Except for people who are sociopaths, everyone has a moral conscience which will kick in automatically when contemplating doing something that we feel is morally wrong. If you can convince yourself that your drinking/using is highly immoral conduct, this reflex will kick in automatically and identify the AV almost instantly when it appears. It took me a while to get to that point, but eventually, I did.
It is not easy to do, particularly since addiction is not generally viewed as a "moral issue" these days, but if you can do it, it is extremely powerful. Once at that point, the mere suggestion of any further drinking/using is enough to cause an instinctive, almost automatic recoil.
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I didn't use AVRT per se, but for me to quit completely I needed a mechanism as strong if not stronger than a moral issue. I basically turned drinking into a maturity issue and a gag reflex. I don't want to get into the specifics of what I made myself believe that alcohol tastes like, but the maturity side seemed to really top it off. I made myself believe that I am old enough mentally to know that drinking for me is no longer an option. I'm not a 21 year old knucklehead with nothing to lose. I realized the obsessive voice was just the dumb immature kid I used to be. That coupled with the physical gag reflex that would occur anytime I thought about drinking or even saw other people drinking was enough to get me through the first month or so, and since then it, (the voice) has completely disappeared.
Good thread AVRT!
Good thread AVRT!
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Originally Posted by Supercrew
I didn't use AVRT per se, but for me to quit completely I needed a mechanism as strong if not stronger than a moral issue. I basically turned drinking into a maturity issue and a gag reflex... That coupled with the physical gag reflex that would occur anytime I thought about drinking or even saw other people drinking was enough to get me through the first month or so, and since then it, (the voice) has completely disappeared.
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Originally Posted by AVRT
...and to never change your mind. Details, details. :-)
In the second variation on AVRT, though, drinking/using, in and of itself, is viewed as wrong, in the moral sense. I myself certainly balked at this suggestion initially, but if you can get yourself to accept that for you, drinking/using is not only immoral, but also the most immoral act of all, it can be prove extremely effective against the AV.
Except for people who are sociopaths, everyone has a moral conscience which will kick in automatically when contemplating doing something that we feel is morally wrong. If you can convince yourself that your drinking/using is highly immoral conduct, this reflex will kick in automatically and identify the AV almost instantly when it appears. It took me a while to get to that point, but eventually, I did.
It is not easy to do, particularly since addiction is not generally viewed as a "moral issue" these days, but if you can do it, it is extremely powerful. Once at that point, the mere suggestion of any further drinking/using is enough to cause an instinctive, almost automatic recoil.
In the second variation on AVRT, though, drinking/using, in and of itself, is viewed as wrong, in the moral sense. I myself certainly balked at this suggestion initially, but if you can get yourself to accept that for you, drinking/using is not only immoral, but also the most immoral act of all, it can be prove extremely effective against the AV.
Except for people who are sociopaths, everyone has a moral conscience which will kick in automatically when contemplating doing something that we feel is morally wrong. If you can convince yourself that your drinking/using is highly immoral conduct, this reflex will kick in automatically and identify the AV almost instantly when it appears. It took me a while to get to that point, but eventually, I did.
It is not easy to do, particularly since addiction is not generally viewed as a "moral issue" these days, but if you can do it, it is extremely powerful. Once at that point, the mere suggestion of any further drinking/using is enough to cause an instinctive, almost automatic recoil.
If you drink then you're hurting others too through worry.
If you drink you're spending more time with a bottle than with people.
If you drink you're spending more money on a bottle than on other people.
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Originally Posted by AVRT
You used Neuro-Linguistic Programming / Aversion Therapy, no? That's a little more believable in my book, since I can actually imagine what you mean. Either way, I consider those who quit on their own the real experts on addiction, and your stories need to be told more often. The standard "nobody can do it alone" line is simply not true, and it dissuades many from even trying to quit.
I just had to be able to make myself repulsed mentally and physically to the thought of drinking. The thought of drinking brought about very real mental pictures that would bring about a physical reaction, (I would feel like gagging or dry heaving), that coupled with the positive changes I was making physically through exercise and self improvement and the positive reenforcement I was getting from my friends and family ended up making the job of beating the addictive voice kind of easy and almost pleasurable.
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Originally Posted by BodhiTree
Like you, I just quit drinking on my own using pretty much AVRT though I didn't know it as such.
I'm not near smart enough to understand the psychology of AVRT or the other techniques. I simply chose not to drink.
I gritted my teeth and said over and over in my head, "I choose to not drink." "I will not drink." I used pictures of my kids to remind me why I was changing my life. I changed all of the desktops on the computers I use to my kids. I put kid pics on my keychain. I glued kid pics on a Mardi Gras coin and kept it in my change pocket. I put kid pics in my wallet. One wonderful afternoon a picture taped to my dashboard kept me from going into the liquor store after I drove there.
I discovered AVRT about 6 months in. Trimpey helped me organize what I was already doing. My beast is a tough b@st@rd. I still sometimes hear in my head "What a tough day that was! You work so hard and deserve a drink to help you unwind," or 'What a wonderful day. Let's have a couple of drinks to celebrate."
"I choose" is powerful.
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So far I really like his paradigm. It is refreshing, it does not equivocate, it assigns moral consequences to bad choices. It places cause and effect and agency squarely where they belong. To the extent I've read it, I've started to actively take control of my thought processes, have not had a drink, and it feels like I'm touching solid truth.
I have one question that's been bugging me. I understand the neuropathology of the Beast, as he puts it. I understand our brains realigning our award pathways to pursue substances -- and even associated environments and symbols -- once the brain recognizes their ability to trigger its innate reward mechanism. I understand that one's ego has complete control over our choices, despite the ability of unconscious processes to commandeer parts of the ego and masquerade as "us". (The sex drive is one good example of his.)
My question is this: For someone who's never had a drink, or someone who gets drunk maybe three times a month, would "any thinking, feeling, or imagery that supports, or even suggests, [her] future use of alcohol or drugs, ever" be considered AV? Are there, in fact, rational reasons for people to want to drink?
To what extent can we talk about this as unequivocally true without resorting to the consequences it entails to the addicted? I recognize the first reaction to my question will be to identify the logic as the Beast talking. I am addicted, and I drink about 6-8 drinks every 3 or 4 days.
But, I do actually see a small set of benefits in certain social settings outside of a need to feel good all over, and I am also uncomfortable with absolutist positions for reasons beyond my own addiction. Apologies to anyone who is bothered by my line of reasoning.
I have one question that's been bugging me. I understand the neuropathology of the Beast, as he puts it. I understand our brains realigning our award pathways to pursue substances -- and even associated environments and symbols -- once the brain recognizes their ability to trigger its innate reward mechanism. I understand that one's ego has complete control over our choices, despite the ability of unconscious processes to commandeer parts of the ego and masquerade as "us". (The sex drive is one good example of his.)
My question is this: For someone who's never had a drink, or someone who gets drunk maybe three times a month, would "any thinking, feeling, or imagery that supports, or even suggests, [her] future use of alcohol or drugs, ever" be considered AV? Are there, in fact, rational reasons for people to want to drink?
To what extent can we talk about this as unequivocally true without resorting to the consequences it entails to the addicted? I recognize the first reaction to my question will be to identify the logic as the Beast talking. I am addicted, and I drink about 6-8 drinks every 3 or 4 days.
But, I do actually see a small set of benefits in certain social settings outside of a need to feel good all over, and I am also uncomfortable with absolutist positions for reasons beyond my own addiction. Apologies to anyone who is bothered by my line of reasoning.
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To further clarify (past time limit to edit): I recognize fully that I may have no choice to stop 100%. Part of me, which may in fact be pure addictive voice, cannot fully accept that there is not a spectrum of agency. There may not be for an addict like me who's been developing the twice-a-week habit for 10 years. But that does not necessarily imply a pure schism exists in all of us when it comes to pleasure-seeking situations.
I can easily see how a dissociative technique like this works powerfully. I just worry about the becoming kind of person who lives that way in many things. The anecdote about slamming the phone down on the previous poster for joking about being in" a meeting" might clarify that a little.
I can easily see how a dissociative technique like this works powerfully. I just worry about the becoming kind of person who lives that way in many things. The anecdote about slamming the phone down on the previous poster for joking about being in" a meeting" might clarify that a little.
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Originally Posted by sengsara
Are there, in fact, rational reasons for people to want to drink?
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Originally Posted by sengsara
The anecdote about slamming the phone down on the previous poster for joking about being in" a meeting" might clarify that a little.
I don't drink. I'm a tyrannical b**** in the face of my AV. But I'm very, very open-minded in other areas of my life. I'd probably think Trimpey is a d*** if I ever met him. Or not...
What's very interesting to me... is that I've always thought of myself as an open-minded person. Alcohol closed me off, and I didn't realize just how much. By becoming absolutist in not drinking, it's allowed me to flourish in the areas I'd sequestered off from my own soul.
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Originally Posted by sengsara
My question is this: For someone who's never had a drink, or someone who gets drunk maybe three times a month, would "any thinking, feeling, or imagery that supports, or even suggests, [her] future use of alcohol or drugs, ever" be considered AV? Are there, in fact, rational reasons for people to want to drink?
Originally Posted by sengsara
But, I do actually see a small set of benefits in certain social settings outside of a need to feel good all over, and I am also uncomfortable with absolutist positions for reasons beyond my own addiction.
As for absolutist positions, it is true that they are not usually a good thing, but as pertains to an addiction, if you have finally reached the end of your rope, absolutist thinking has its place. Why play with fire?
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Thank you both: very edifying ways of thinking about that question your own words. I appreciate it.
And no Big Plan -- I think the key is going to be there, because taking full responsibility depends on an explicit choice.
And no Big Plan -- I think the key is going to be there, because taking full responsibility depends on an explicit choice.
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Originally Posted by Vlad
I discovered AVRT about 6 months in. Trimpey helped me organize what I was already doing.
The way Trimpey tells it, after RR had spread, he started getting phone calls from alcoholics/addicts who were still going to RR meetings after several years, which was not his original intention. He had imagined that people would eventually move on, and so he shut down the meetings.
The real message of Rational Recovery is that you can indeed do it alone, and that once you learn AVRT, you don't need to rely on RR any longer.
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My purpose in sharing the anecdote was two-fold...
a) I just thought it was funny, but I am slightly twisted anyway so whatev...
b) I try very hard to pay attention to the following principles from "the fourteen precepts of the order of interbeing" (Thich Nhat Hanh)
#1. do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, thoery, or ideaology. all systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth.
#2. do not think that the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. avoid being narrow-minded and bound to present views. learn and practice non-attachment from views in order to be open to receive others' viewpoints. truth is found in life and not merely in conceptual knowledge. be ready to learn throughout your entire life and to observe reality in yourself and in the world at all times.
I have "observed reality in myself" plenty of times and I will not drink again....that's my reality. To say that I could drink doesn't scare me because certainly I could go right now and do it...full well knowing the consequences (the reality I have observed in myself) um...no, thanks-I'm good with all that. It's just moot at this point for me.
So in the above paragraph there is plenty of stuff for both wilson and trimpey to argue against. but, in the meantime I (and millions of others) are happily sober...so...hmmmmm
I agree with many of trimpey's ideas...I embrace much of AVRT...i just find him (and others) dogmatic...no biggie...just sayin'
a) I just thought it was funny, but I am slightly twisted anyway so whatev...
b) I try very hard to pay attention to the following principles from "the fourteen precepts of the order of interbeing" (Thich Nhat Hanh)
#1. do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, thoery, or ideaology. all systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth.
#2. do not think that the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. avoid being narrow-minded and bound to present views. learn and practice non-attachment from views in order to be open to receive others' viewpoints. truth is found in life and not merely in conceptual knowledge. be ready to learn throughout your entire life and to observe reality in yourself and in the world at all times.
I have "observed reality in myself" plenty of times and I will not drink again....that's my reality. To say that I could drink doesn't scare me because certainly I could go right now and do it...full well knowing the consequences (the reality I have observed in myself) um...no, thanks-I'm good with all that. It's just moot at this point for me.
So in the above paragraph there is plenty of stuff for both wilson and trimpey to argue against. but, in the meantime I (and millions of others) are happily sober...so...hmmmmm
I agree with many of trimpey's ideas...I embrace much of AVRT...i just find him (and others) dogmatic...no biggie...just sayin'
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If it makes you feel any better, soberlicious, I could also share some anecdotes, so I didn't find your story disturbing, nor do I doubt that it happened. Don't ask me to share mine, though. :-)
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and AVRT...i must respectfully disagree... Trimpey does in fact openly discourage conventional views on addiction/treatment and most certainly openly opposes group support of any kind...he goes on to give "facts" as to how other approaches doom one to failure. Not only can you do it alone...you must if you want to "truly" recover.
He does exactly what he faults others for doing.
As a rational person...that doesn't make sense to me
love this thread. I have learned so much from all of you.
He does exactly what he faults others for doing.
As a rational person...that doesn't make sense to me
love this thread. I have learned so much from all of you.
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