arguments

[msh58]

its something i don't like about rational recovery. I basically love his book for the plan itself, it makes the most sense to me, but really can't stand the founder as grateful as i am for finally having someone that explains it clearly to me. But over 2/3's of the book is just him bashing other programs, arguing about this or that. Book should have been 50 pages long. I can't imagine what the guy was like when he was drunk if he's like this sober.

i actually follow that small part from the AA big book on this one, to avoid arguments.

but this needs a discussion. how do you handle arguments now that you've sobered up. What is working for you?

[Yardbird]

If you mean arguments about programs, I handle them by avoiding them, or by trying to make a positive contribution. I got turned off of rational recovery in part because it seemed like one big argument, but honestly I also wasn't ready to do the work I needed to get sober at the time. I haven't looked into it in a long time.

The only program-related arguments I sometimes get into are kind of about arguing--the dogmatism of some people in my program (AA) and in many others turns away a lot of people who are looking for sobriety. If someone is getting sober in any remotely sane way, they deserve support; if they are staying sober, they deserve support and congrats; if they are lecturing others about the right way to get sober, they need to lighten the **** up, watch a few episodes of Sesame Street, and recall the timeless wisdom that, hey, not everyone is the same! People who claim you must be spiritual as they define it, in any program, are a case in point, but people who bash any program for any reason aren't doing a heck of a lot of good either.

Other arguments I've learned to handle a little better as a result of taking a long hard look at my old strategies (through working the steps). What am I really arguing for? Often my own vanity, or out of baseless fear. If I think in time (not always the case, to be sure), I can avoid arguments entirely, or at least avoid becoming too deeply absorbed in them. Sobriety allows me to be clearer going in and coming out of disagreements; a commitment to staying sober means not letting any disagreement provide me with an excuse to say **** it all to the world.

Gee, I sure am using a lot of ****ing asterisks today.

[miss communicat]

arguments don't interest me.

I don't feel that I need to defend, convince, or explain my point of view, especially my inner processes in sobriety. Or for that matter, I don't feel that I need to listen to anybody else who insists on defending, convincing me of, or explaining why their point of view is superior or even worthwhile to mine or yours.

I like to learn by direct experience. Perhaps others do also. so I do the old "live and let live" mantra....ever since I quit the debating society of sobriety.

[barb dwyer]

I"m with miss c ...

but being a redneck by nature
(or just for sport - I'm not sure sometimes)
I have a hard time on occasion with the 'let live' part.

I am AA,
I do not hesitate to say were it not for that Program
and what I received from the Fellowship ...
I would not be alive typing this right now.

but even I am turned off by the hard core,
non-listening, repetetive, preach methodology I've witnessed.

That flys in the face of everything I believe
not only about the program,
but as a human being;

So I walk.
It's all I can think to do without...
you know.
Going all redneck.

I know who I am.
I know I'm okay.
I know what I've done - has worked.
My spirituality isn't threatened just because someone says God ...
And the God of my understanding isnt threatened because someone
wants the freedom to call it something else.
ANd I am not threatened because AA is not the only way.
AA is not even the only way *I* know.

But then I'm a tad ornery at times.

I think this is a great idea for a thread, by the way.

[Ann]

I rarely argue. Today I accept that two people with two opinions doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong....it means two people have two different opinions and I respect that.

And, I no longer argue about my values, my choices in life or my thoughts. I feel no need to defend myself and what others think of me is none of my business.

And I certainly won't argue about the thread starter's thoughts about Jack Trimpy...he's a horse's posterior, in my opinion.

[ananda]

I try to listen to what people are expressing rather that what words they use to describe the experience....helps alot of time, but of course not always.

[freya]

msh58:

I haven't read the book you're talking about, but from what you've said I think I would find that very off-putting also.....I kinda have a pet theory about people who need to argue things even when no one is arguing with them -- which is clearly the case when someone is writing a book -- and that is: If your ideas are so great, then why "doth thou protest so much?????" It's just a real red-flag for me -- if not necessarily a red flag in regards to the ideas themselves, then definitely a red-flag in regards to the individual espousing the ideas.

I mean, if I've got great ideas, shouldn't they be able to stand on their own????? And so what if other people have other ideas????? The whole concept that there might be only one "right way" of doing recovery --even within one program/philosophy -- is kind of ludicrous...and for me as a reader, if I was reading someone's plan/program/approach and that person was obviously very hung-up on his/her being right and everyone else being wrong, I would have serious doubts about that person's emotional sobriety and, therefore, about the true effectiveness of his/her program even for him/herself, let alone for anyone else.

freya

[warrens]

MSH

I too have that book on my shelf. I bought it several years ago to ADD to my toolbox.

You know, I was never able to get to the real message because of his trashing of AA throughout. A program that has helped millions.

I surmised that his "market" is dependent on taking as large a share of the treatment pie as he could. He seems to prefer cutting his slice and removing it from the pan.

I prefer the process of addition to subtraction. Inclusion as opposed to exclusion. While I don't mind when someone has issues with AA, to dismiss it as harmful is ludicrous, I think. Apple is too smart to dismiss Microsoft, as Microsoft software runs on most of their computers.

Success begets success. I was hoping for something that added to my toolbox, not one that took tools away. But it is a familiar and common tactic. Like the shamans who sell "throw everything you know about modern medicine away," and buy my book. Most who viciously attack AA have something to sell. AA goes out of it's way to avoid selling anything. It freely suggests that people go out and try other ways. And welcomes people back when they don't work.

I find valuable tools everywhere. I put them in my box. Use them when I need them, but the most well worn and the ones I count on time after time are the ones from AA.

warren

[Freedom1990]

Personally I think that a program of recovery, whatever it may be, should be able to stand on its own without a bashfest of others if it's worth its weight in gold.

I don't engage in arguments when I'm spiritually sound.

[nan07]

Originally Posted by msh58

its something i don't like about rational recovery. I basically love his book for the plan itself, it makes the most sense to me, but really can't stand the founder as grateful as i am for finally having someone that explains it clearly to me. But over 2/3's of the book is just him bashing other programs, arguing about this or that. Book should have been 50 pages long. I can't imagine what the guy was like when he was drunk if he's like this sober.

i actually follow that small part from the AA big book on this one, to avoid arguments.

but this needs a discussion. how do you handle arguments now that you've sobered up. What is working for you?

I agree with you about that RR book. It would have been a very slender volume if Jack's rants were excluded. Yep, take the good parts and leave the rest behind- I do that, too. It's very hard for me to avoid arguments about programs, particularly when people come in and preach or foist their beliefs on me. Honestly, I often have to simply avoid those forums and people. My best advice is don't engage- I've discovered it doesn't get me anywhere.

[Eroica]

I like RR's AVRT and use it almost every time I want to drink.

-Eroica

[LogCabin]

I get a lot from AA. I get a lot from Smart Recovery. I get a lot from Therapy. I get a lot from relaxing techniques, and finding a way to feel peaceful when I am fighting anxiety over life or thinking of drinking. I get a lot from many resources. I use them all.

What I have learned is to not be angry at any approach, and take from it what I need.

Once I get past the addiction part of any of my addictions. Where I am physically controlled (shake, anxiety, etc)...then I have to work on my thinking. And making right choices to help my life move forward.

[Alera]

Not a fan, at all. I have found most of his opinions can be found in a kinder way in books such as AA-Cult or Cure? which actually states AA is not a cult. There are great books by Albert Ellis that have wonderful ways to deal with the Addictive Voice and so on. I can easily do without RR.

[Bel303]

I had only a quick look at his web site, and I found some of his ideas too unkind. Maybe it would work for some people, but not me.