PinkCloudsCharley

I don't know the history here, but I'm not demanding acceptance immediately. I'm demanding an equal voice, to say what I believe and what has worked for me. I'm demanding no less than what the 12 step people have.

I just want to tell my story, and maybe help someone else along the way, someone else who was as lost and depressed in Al Anon as I was.

PinkCloudsCharley

If that cannot happen, perhaps the forum names need to be changed. It isn't a true recovery forum if all forms are not allowed. Maybe changing back to the original 12 step roots is in order if the forums are not willing to respect and truly allow for other recovery methods.

PinkCloudsCharley

Mapping is, surprisingly, something I have done for years for myself without even realizing. It's a very smart way of self evaluation.
My counselor actually clapped when i suggested mapping. He told me I was light years ahead of most of his patients and very refreshing to speak with.

PinkCloudsCharley

Actually, a quick look at the stickies will tell you all about "rock bottom". To say that rock bottom and 12 step are not connected is a lie.

I even learned in Al anon how to "force a bottom"

Morning Glory

Charley, I think you are missing the whole point of this thread.
It has nothing to do with this forum.

This is really for members who have had a problem with all of this for several months.
It is a one time off topic thread.

PinkCloudsCharley

Then please MG, describe what the real problem is. From what I can see, some people have a problem with those who are not 12 step promoting our program as an alternative. I see it as a free speech problem.

What is the real problem then?

Morning Glory

I'm really tired and frustrated right now Charley.
There is a problem with members who use both programs.
The programs aren't the problem.
We have the same programs on the other forums without the problem.

BlueChair

I think Allfor explained the history of how these were all alanon forums, and so I know the stickies and the thought process is really based on how 12 step views addiction and recovery. I take all your comments and try to learn from them Morning Glory,, believe it or not. Ha!

I dont make direct comments saying alanon is xxx.

if you talk about theory or as Dee said the foundations of a program, it causes these hard feelings.

Like what just happened when Charley said rock bottom, someone says your implying xxx, you dont understand our meaning of rock bottom. Youve explained it and made it sound like its our belief but its not, or theres more to it. Now we are mad.

But yet its ok to say your own experience regarding rock bottom.

I do get your point cynical one. See Im willing to learn from even you. Ha!

But I still think my comments are most often NOT deliberate. but more an issue of trying to see both sides and learn to be more compassionate on this site because many people use a program with ideas different than mine. And to also use my own experiences more because those are not so debatable.

PinkCloudsCharley

That's ok, MG. I understand tired and frustrated, i have a teenager, a toddler, and H has been out of town all week

When you feel better, i would appreciate if you could please describe what the problem is. I have a feeling that if I have been misunderstanding, others have been too. I don't want to keep defending myself or my program if that's not the real problem, that's energy I could use elsewhere.

PinkCloudsCharley

Maybe I'm understanding more now, Blue.

I have made direct comments about al anon. I have had some very interesting things said to me there, including if I call an ambulance for my husband I'm enabling, because his bottom might be death. To me, to sit and watch someone die if I could have helped is murder, not enabling.

So maybe I'm the problem. That's ok. I am using free speech to tell my own experiences, as others do in detail about their al anon meetings. The stickies describe meetings in detail so talking about mine shouldnt be an issue. I think it's important people realize that it's not chaired by professionals, that anyone can say anything and call it "al anon" and then you leave thinking "it'll only work if I work it so I have to follow what they say"

I'm not bashing it. It works for H. But it made me question my very morals. Could I watch someone die without helping?

Morning Glory

The last time I was helping my son he was dying at home and I had already taken him to the hospital 3 times. Then he wouldn't go to the hospital. I put him out because it was the only choice to help him. He was cold and hungry and suicidal and too drunk to wrap himself in a blanket. He called 911 and went to the hospital and into rehab and has been sober for close to a year. If I had not let him hit that bottom I'm pretty sure he would have died in my house. The social worker at the hospital praised me for taking that action.

Each situation is different and in each situation you have to decide what decision is the best. You can imagine how I felt as a mother making that decision to try and save him.
He could have died either way and I think the odds at that time were worse if I let him stay home.

It's not black and white and it's not as simple as following a set method.

PinkCloudsCharley

I understand what you are saying, MG, and i can only imagine what you went thru. I'm not judging anything you did at all.

My point is, at the time I heard that in a meeting, H wasn't at that point. In fact he never got to that point. And to have that said to me, and being told "it works if you work it" made me very confused. At that time I was pretty emotionally spent, and here are all these "happy" people telling me if I follow what they say and do what they say, i will be happy too. This wasn't a retelling of someone else's story, someone told me directly when i asked a question about enabling, call an ambulance, you've enabled him.

That's when I started asking questions. But here I got more "it works if you work it" and that I should try another meeting. I was never told that there were options until I met Blue. I thought *I* was the problem because i was questioning "the program". Even my 12 step counsellor told me to stop questioning and do the work.

That's why people need to be able to speak freely about their experiences and programs. I am all in favour of people using whatever works, whenever it works, from whatever program it might be.

PinkCloudsCharley

I'm having a great deal of trouble understanding the point of this thread. We're arguing about free speech and the right to choose whatever program we wish? Seriously? I am thoroughly confused. And I am a smart person in real life.

There has to be more to this that someone isn't saying.

BlueChair

Someone can correct me if Im wrong but I think sharing our experiences is fine Charley.

I also think its ok if we are explaining the foundations of our own program, or quote resources who support our position. This is like other programs quoting their Big Book for example.

I think its vague comments I often make bug people. And then its open to interpretation as to what I mean. And sometimes people make assumptions too.

And direct comments like Craft is equal to training your dog bother us more because we have learned to ignore the vague comments. Today, you were pulling from the article and I think it was an exception.

In my post that Dee pulled I made a comment and it was actually in terms of what society views and not particular to 12 step programs but I mentioned rock bottom and ideas of what enabling might be considered in allowing people a safe place to use drugs, how the idea might go against what people think ultimately helps people with addiction. I bet you understood me Charley and off sr it could be a good discussion.

I sort of agree with Charley though. If the main forums are really 12 step based with stickies already in place. And a large portion of members are 12 step or have been here for years and made friendships, whatever the case. Maybe leave the people where they are and swap the forums. Make it a: 12 step forum for family of xxx and its for YOU and your recovery. This is the foundation of alanon anyway isnt it? I say this respectfully.

We can stay here and maybe the new Family forum could be the main one for a while. Add stickies to show all views, but make programs off topic other than basic questions and no addict bashing, maybe require it to be somewhat respectful to addicted loved ones. So people feel safe.

Just a thought, its very complicated and i dont know the solution.

I do see from reading some on the main sub abuse forum, most posts arent all about how the person needs to go to NA or work anything specific. It feels like there is less pressure to join a program than on the family forums. I could be wrong tho.

Tod posts with us and she doesnt use Craft or smart, has an aa background. We just talk to her, we dont try to force her to use craft to help jethro or anything. Shes just our friend and we listen and all share. She does the same with us.

I think it would solve the need to educate or rescue. The need to say join alanon, no wait look at smart, see a counselor, no wait a 12 step one. Its kinda crazy because people get lost.

Sorry i deviated. Im going out to dinner so thats it for me tonight.

Dee74

Just to correct you - I haven't acted as a moderator in this thread. This is not my forum.

As I explained initally, I came here in error not realising what forum this was.

I keep getting name checked tho LOL





D

Morning Glory

Changing the forums didn't solve the problem.
Changing them again won't solve the problem.

That would be like telling an addict to move to a new home or paint it a different color and their problem is solved. Solving a problem like this takes some effort.

Each person has to be aware of what triggers others. Each person needs to compromise and avoid things that trigger and avoid making passive aggressive remarks or asking questions and not really seeking an answer.

Let the program you follow stand alone. There is no need to say what it isn't. Just say what it is. Why would you need to say your program is non-12 step? That would be like saying I use Al-anon which is a non-Craft program. I use non-Craft doctors. I use a non-Craft rehab. It just doesn't make much sense and only creates hard feeling and resentments.

If you don't use Craft don't disagree with a post by a Craft member and start an argument on another person's thread. Let the thread starter make their own decisions. They can process all the information and experience themselves. Most people come here with the ability to read and process information and eventually take an action that they are comfortable with. Stop competing. It's really apparent that both sides feel that some information can be dangerous. You can express your feelings to the poster without discrediting what another person shares. It would be 2 different opinions.

Don't talk about what you disagree with about another persons program and compare the differences. Just share what works for you. Don't talk about not believing in rock bottom. Don't talk about not being codependent. Don't talk about enabling the way another program feels about it. Again let your program stand alone without discrediting another program. All these things cause anger and resentments.

The scientific approach and evidence based treatment statements really bother me. Not on face value, but because it "feels" like it is being used to discredit all the other rehabs and treatment centers. I think others have that same feeling. I don't have a solution for that.

Create your own stickies or threads with detailed information on the method you practice. Don't just keep posting vague information. If you really want to give members information about Craft you will need details. Not vague details. I'm talking about details that teach how you changed your behavior and specific action you take to make things better. No one is going to want to invade your All About Me thread so that's not a good place to help the general members. Go take a look at the AVRT threads on the other Secular forum. It is very specific in explaining that method and has no need to be labeled as non 12 step.

Stop making every post on the general forum about your program information. Talk to the person. Don't promote a program, talk to a person. Build up this forum with Craft information. Believe me they will all find it and get the information. Don't make it like an encyclopedia. Make it personal. Share experience and share your story. It will be a lot easier to just offer Craft like others offer Al-anon if you have a handy place to send them for information. If there are too many 12 step stickies on the other forum and you can't compete with that just put them up here.

Stop fighting with each other. Stop giving information on the program you don't use.
Mind your own business.

PinkCloudsCharley

Hmm. That's a whole lot of don'ts there. How do i go about describing my non 12 step counselor who is not craft or smart? He's definitely not 12 step, and not affiliated with any program. And much different from my 12 step counsellor I started my journey with a couple years ago. That will be hard to differentiate.

I'm going to challenge you a bit on this. I'm wondering where the freedom of speech is on this.

I'm also wondering if the same rules apply to the 12 steppers or Al Anoners, as I'm not sure how I should refer to them anymore.

While I try to follow craft, I've mashed together a bunch of stuff including some 12 step stuff (I know you are all gasping here lol) I'm actually confused at how I post about things to reflect what I'm saying now.

Btw the reason we use non 12 step is because there are so many other versions of things that are distinctly not 12 step but may not follow a specific method. Sometimes it's even our own interpretations of things that we know don't fall into the Al Anon category but how do we describe it if we can't use certain words?

This feels very limiting and censored.

Btw, please excuse any typos. I'm on my phone and the cursor jumps, it's difficult to type on this forum this way. My apologies.

PinkCloudsCharley

And if this is the case, every time I hear "go check out the secular forum, they believe in loving your spouse dry" on the F&F forum I'm going to report then for spreading misinformation about our program. What's fair for the goose is fair for the gander, right?

I'm confused, and I'm a smart person. An Al Anon person can talk about rock bottom but we can't discuss not hitting rock bottom, even though it is a big part of the program that we believe you can start recovery without hitting bottom? If my H had believed he had to hit bottom before he got sober he'd be dead because he feared that would be his bottom. Why is that a problem we don't believe in it? Does it upset people that we don't believe in something they do? I'm a Christian for example, I'm not threatened by people who are atheists because they don't believe in what I do. That's what makes the world interesting!

Morning Glory

If I were to see a counselor I would just call them a counselor. I might talk about what we talked about or what advice he/she gave me. All the counselors I've talked about are just called counselors or therapists or psychiatrists. I might say sexual abuse counselor or addiction counselor.

This is a moderated forum and there are censors in place. Although we like to give as much freedom of speech as possible we are allowed to censor here.
I wasn't limiting speech. I was making suggestions on how to solve a problem.

There is no us or them. We are all people here. We don't label each other by what recovery method we use. You could call everyone by their name.

Feel free to talk about anything you are personally using, but don't talk about something someone else is using in a negative way. That applies to everyone with any program.

When you use "non" you are saying what something isn't instead of what it is. There are not very many reasons you would need to describe something like that.

That was addressed to everyone. You are not understanding.

Once again you are comparing programs. Just state what you believe. An example would be that you believe that early intervention is important and helps encourage treatment. Remember though that this is focused on the addict/alcoholic's recovery and not the family or friends. That is on topic for this forum, but not for the general family and friends forums. The focus of those forums is our recovery not the addict or alcoholic's recovery.

FindingMe2

Let me please preface this by saying "I do not belong to either program". Therefore, I am not biased in the least.

I believe both programs have a lot to offer anyone seeking help. That being said, IMO, the problem is not with the programs but with specific members. This thread confirms that for me. That is a shame because I am sure many of us could use both programs to navagate through the painful experience of loving someone addicted to any and all substances.

The "right fighting," the sarcasm, passive aggressive and arrogant posts really do Craft an injustice. Not to mention the clique like, pack mentality used to prove their points and/or discredit others. I have seen this on several threads which ultimately end up being locked.

This is all so unnecessary. It just creates more pain for many of us who are already suffering. Support, respect and kindness should be extended to all regardless of what program is used.

It also creates more work for admins and mods who volunteer their time to create a safe and informative sight.

Thank you Morning Glory for attempting to resolve this issues. I have read it on here for far too long.


Just my observations. Thank you!