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Atheists/Agnostics with 12-step

Old 04-10-2016, 05:52 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by zerothehero View Post
Mindfulness and science, on the other hand, encourage me to recognize that I was genetically predisposed to run into problems with substance abuse, and the traumas I've endured only exacerbated matters (nature and nurture). I didn't need to turn over my will to Anything; I needed to learn to FEEL and to ACCEPT my experience, past, present, and future, in a way that allows me to embrace it rather than numb myself or try to hide under a rock. That, to me, is what recovery is about.
I completely agree with the above. This is all an inside job for me. Btw, over 4 years sober since January.
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Old 04-10-2016, 07:44 AM
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I struggle with it because I want community and online is the only community I have unless I go to AA or NA meetings which bum me out because I hear so much talk about being damaged goods and "if not for the love of God..." I am geographically isolated in a small town, and there are no flesh and blood alternatives within at least 100 miles. There are not many sober people with whom I can relate around here. Most who are sober are at church or AA.

And yes, I judge, but some may judge me for judging, but it is what it is. I know AA helps people, but I also have seen evidence that the Steps can lead to people getting stuck. It just rubs me the wrong way. I can intellectualize it, but it's more a feeling than anything else.

It's the teaching people they are insane or defected that bothers me most - more than teaching that only a Higher Power can help. I question the existence of character "defects." Addiction grows out of learned behavior, and people can learn new behaviors. Character "defects" seem more accurately to be problems with inaccurate perception and thinking (cognitive distortions). It seems preferable to teach people their thinking is problematic and can be changed rather than telling them they are insane or defected. If people years into recovery still believe they have character defects, it's because they have been taught they have character defects. It sounds like splitting hairs, but telling people they are insane and defected seems awfully judgemental, and I don't think that's particularly helpful. And it's overly simplistic.

I've thought about attending a book study to try to figure out why the model is so widely accepted (other than that it works for some), but I would have to try to keep and open mind. And my mouth shut.
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Old 04-10-2016, 08:01 AM
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The other dynamic that concerns me is the thought of working with a sponsor. If I openly share with a sponsor that I don't believe my life was unmanageable and I don't believe in character defects, will the response be that I'm an addict that can't think straight and I'm just wrong and can't work the steps because I'm not ready? My experience is that though we're often told there is flexibility, people often seem very rigid in their interpretation.
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Old 04-10-2016, 08:12 AM
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Oh for Gods sake don't get it mixed up with religion ha ha , biggest problem is majority of folks ''hear the G word and think of religion '' or HP as religious .

Ps got that book Refuge Recovery , its very good
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Old 04-10-2016, 08:28 AM
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Hi Zero it cant be very good for you with little choice of meeting like minded people , think at least to combat alcohol/drug abuse firstly you need a path ''proven preferably '' I have had a spiritual awakening with non religious beliefs, all spiritual based methods or solutions are my ''personal preference '' but I have an open mind towards other methods . Refuge Recovery by Noah Levine ''recommended by Boleo'' is an excellent book without any ''attachments '' outside of own self with specific meditations for certain areas of the body , very interesting all based in Buddhist truths and ways , there are meetings in USA , take care .

Stevie .
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:01 AM
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i've been where it sounds you're at, zero, and got and stayed sober in a mostly online community of LifeRing Secular Recovery, though there was a face-to-face meeting in my town, too.
and of course i wasn't insane, i'd managed my life okay and i wasn't defected.

after a few years of this and with more, hm, willingness to look at what my own experience of multiple returns to drinking had actually been, and of how my relationships actually were/had been, and of how i hid little or big stuff here, there or other places, and of how i was stuck in skewed perceptions anf thinking and reactionary crap and how my "managing" had been more a matter of trying tightly to hold it all together, with juggling here and shortcuts there and fear everywhere....after some time, with great relief, i came to see that stopping drinking was only the first part for me and that a way forward that was based on 'spiritual principles' was exactly what i needed and wanted.

and of course my oodles of returns to drinking were insanity. if they were "freely chosen", it was an insane (non-sane as in non-healthy) choice, and if i had lost freedom of choice in the matter at times, then that was powerlessness.

re your sponsor question: no way of knowing what you'll be told.
my own sponsor-person would not tell you things such as the ones you mention. they asked me open-ended questions which helped me look at my own experiences, my beliefs around those experiences, my challenges with being openminded about what "the book" says, and i ended up having only the predictable difficulties with the steps, nothing extra special.

you might be told that alcoholism is to great degree about screwed thinking and perceptions, based in self-centredness. you might be told all kinds of stuff...i found that when i stopped battling and started with non-defensiveness, a lot more things were possible.
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:07 AM
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I hear you, and my last posts really aren't about religion; they are about the consequences of teaching people they are insane and have character defects.

I'm just thinking aloud here, but it occurs to me this is not so much about me as it is about helping others with addictions. The conversation reminds me of my mom. She was an alcoholic. Her life was manageable in that she could hold down a job and be responsible and didn't have legal or financial problems due to her addiction. She was lonely, depressed, and in physical pain from injuries sustained in a car accident, and when her kids feared the health effects of her excessive drinking we talked her into attending a program. She detoxed and went to a few meetings and decided she wasn't an alcoholic, and started drinking again. The 12 Steps convinced her she wasn't an alcoholic because her life actually was manageable. She needed help with depression, no doubt, and physical therapy.

So, instead of arresting the addiction BEFORE her life became unmanageable, she drank for another 15 years until her health got so bad her life was unmanageable. And then she died at 58.

I remembered that, so when I went from "a guy that just liked to party" into a miserable drunk, I stopped drinking BEFORE my life became unmanageable. This seems rare, and flies in the face of the "you have to hit bottom" theory. In recovery, I've realized that all along I wasn't just "a guy that liked to party," but I liked to party because I had unresolved issues around trauma and shame.

Two main points here:

1) When we tell people who are in relatively early stages of addiction that they have to declare their lives had become unmanageable and that they are insane and have character defects, they scoff and walk out and continue their behavior until greater damage is done and life really IS unmanageable. In other words, if they don't agree with Step 1, they're not likely to move to Step 2. One could argue that Step 1 actually encourages people to hit bottom before they will admit they're alcoholics or addicts. I know alcoholics and heroin addicts who manage their lives quite well. I won't say they're particularly happy, but they manage.

2) When we tell people whose lives ARE unmanageable that they are insane and have character defects we create a specific kind of mindset that may be counterproductive in the long run. OR, when someone disagrees with the idea that they are insane or defected, they're told it's just the alcoholism or addiction talking and you'll come around and see the light if you just keep working the Steps. In other words, people are judged for not agreeing with the Steps, and like me (and my mom), choose to leave the potential support of the community and are at greater risk of continued destructive behaviors.

Stevie mentioned Refuge Recovery. He probably noticed in the book that Noah Levine recommends Refuge Recovery as a supplement to AA. He says AA helped him, but only got him so far. There are talks on youtube where he is much more critical of AA's philosophical framework, and not just on the religious or Higher Power issue. I believe it's time for people within the AA community to address some of the concerns I've discussed, and which Levine discusses.

I asked one of the folks who manages our local AA house about starting a Refuge Recovery group at that house, but the answer was no because it's not a 12 Step program. I was told I could do a 12th Step meditation group, but I haven't worked the Steps with a sponsor so that was nixed, as well.

I don't blame him. I would likely be subversive. I don't want to abandon AA entirely because the structure and availability of meetings and support are so essential. But I believe it's time for AA to recognize it could be improved with some simple changes in the language that would help people develop a perspective that is more empowering.

The 12 Steps were written in another era for a Christian audience. It is the default process because in many communities it's the only choice. The 12 Steps could benefit from a fearless and moral inventory of itself.
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by zerothehero View Post
But I believe it's time for AA to recognize it could be improved with some simple changes in the language that would help people develop a perspective that is more empowering.
Very insightful post, Zero. I agree with you.

And I go one step further and say that there needs to be more than a language change; there needs to be a paradigmatic and resulting mindset change.

The old "try many different meetings" until you find the one that fits might be convenient, but... for some of us, it's an impossibility.
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:21 AM
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fini: "i found that when i stopped battling and started with non-defensiveness, a lot more things were possible."

True that.
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:25 AM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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Soberpotamus: "there needs to be a paradigmatic and resulting mindset change."

Exactly. Psychology and the counseling profession have experienced paradigm shifts, but AA remains stalwart and, in my opinion, antiquated.
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by zerothehero View Post
The other dynamic that concerns me is the thought of working with a sponsor.
I have gone full-circle on the subject of sponsorship:

1st - I thought sponorship was completely optional and that getting a low-quality sponsor would hinder my progress.

2nd - I thought sponsorship was mandatory and that getting a high-quality sponsor was essential to making progress.

3rd - I thought sponsorship served as a booster rocket that aided my trajectory initially, but needed to be left behind at some point, else they would drag down my ultimate attainment.

Now I think of sponsorship as an "opportunity" to learn how to live a life based on principles. The first of which is willingness to following directions. Oddly enough, I now think the "quality" of sponorship as an outside issue. Good/bad/mediocre sponsors all serve the same purpose, provided they at least meet the minimum standard of the Hypocratic Oath (first do no harm).
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:26 AM
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Just for poops and giggles I thought I would add that I was much more insane in my first year of sobriety than I was before I quit drinking.
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:29 AM
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^^^ Yes, me too.

Funny, isn't it? Well, kinda scary. But it all tends to balance out eventually. Getting there, anyway.
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:29 AM
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Boleo, I get that about sponsors. I've been to quite a few AA meetings (weeks or months between). My "sponsors" are Shambhala meditation instructors. They're not in recovery (as far as I know).
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by zerothehero View Post
Soberpotamus: "there needs to be a paradigmatic and resulting mindset change."

Exactly. Psychology and the counseling profession have experienced paradigm shifts, but AA remains stalwart and, in my opinion, antiquated.
I dunno, I'm sure there must've been some changes over time. Just not enough, imo.
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:36 AM
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So, here's the thing, and then I gotta get some work done around here (on a Sunday - God forbid): I've been sober since 2013, and I feel solid in my sobriety (always remembering Phillip Seymour Hoffman). I recently took a couple of classes related to CAC certification (Certified Addiction Counselor), and I have to admit that my struggle is less with the 12 Steps themselves, and more with questions of ethics if I find myself working in a capacity where I am more or less required to recommend AA. I'm comfortable having this conversation here, but I wouldn't post this stuff on the newcomers thread or have this kind of conversation with freshly detoxed or considering detox folks. If AA keeps people alive for awhile - more power to it! My concern is on a subtle but significant level, AA sometimes does harm.
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:38 AM
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I've heard a few phrases like "God as we understood Him" were added later, but still, it's Him with a capital H.
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:45 AM
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Some great points, zerothehero. I know people who love AA and I am happy for them, but it doesn't resonate for me. I think having it dominate the recovery field is not good for anyone. There should be room for all.

I really wanted an in person support group, so I wish I liked it.
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:52 AM
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What's more, I've been told if someone is in recovery and wants to be a CAC (Certified Addiction Counselor), they have to have done AA with a sponsor. I can see why, but I'm not convinced that's true, and anyway, it doesn't make it right. Still, employers could have that requirement. The law in my state is that CAC's only need a year of sobriety, so I'm well beyond that. Still, I'm a neophyte looking for ways to help.

So, I'm looking at doing a book study group with a sponsor more in order to understand the process than anything else. I'm sure I will get a lot out of it personally even if some of the basic tenets of some of the Steps seem, well, wrong. I did Kevin Griffin's Buddhist 12 Steps, but on my own.
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:53 AM
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When I started recovery I thought I knew what I needed and what other people needed. I discovered that was a story I was telling myself, and that I needn't buy into it and the less of the story I carried in my head about what people other think, how other people are and what I think they want of me (or think of me) then the more relaxed I am even in the face of some attitude or belief that I makes no sense to me, or even worse.

My sponsor is not my spiritual guide, but I confide my detailed 4th/5th step work with him- he has shared likewise with me, neither am I his. Getting out the secrets and disreputable details and letting them go has a been a critical step. I found working the steps, as written was good enough for me; assistance via additional material like the 12-and-12 and lots of speaker tapes help me understand what the steps are getting at and how to interpret them in my spiritual tradition. A doctrinaire or literalist approach is one way to do it but not the only way.
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