Existence and skipping step 7
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 324
Existence and skipping step 7
Step 3 has been a source of frustration in the past because I feel like I have to pretend to have hope in something that does not exist. I do not want to lie. The weirdness of "Fake it until you make it," never worked for me. I thought about using something like "the universe" as an HP.
Then it occurred to me, existence itself encompasses all the power there is. Existence is the real HP.
I took it for a test drive down 12-step lane, ignoring mentions of prayer.
Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to existence, as we understood existence. "Let go and let god" is simplified to "Let go."
Admitted to existence, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. This is redundant, but I have no issues with it. I suppose I could read my fifth step to a mountain top or something, but that seems unnecessary and reductive.
We're entirely ready to have existence remove all these defects of character.
Step 7 just does not work.
Sought through meditation to improve our conscious contact with existence. Will and power are pointless since existence gets it way by default.
This feels simple, real and peaceful to me. I could use "reality," but existence feels complete. I suppose some would say it is too passive, since it is surrendering to what is, rather than something more complicated. I guess one could critique that existence is not personal to me. I dunno, my existence is pretty personal to me, but isn't the whole point of the steps to get out of self? I cannot see how groveling to an imaginary daddy in the sky, who is personal, would accomplish that.
Thoughts? If anyone has suggestions or thoughts on any of it, particularly 7, I would very much appreciate it.
Then it occurred to me, existence itself encompasses all the power there is. Existence is the real HP.
I took it for a test drive down 12-step lane, ignoring mentions of prayer.
Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to existence, as we understood existence. "Let go and let god" is simplified to "Let go."
Admitted to existence, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. This is redundant, but I have no issues with it. I suppose I could read my fifth step to a mountain top or something, but that seems unnecessary and reductive.
We're entirely ready to have existence remove all these defects of character.
Step 7 just does not work.
Sought through meditation to improve our conscious contact with existence. Will and power are pointless since existence gets it way by default.
This feels simple, real and peaceful to me. I could use "reality," but existence feels complete. I suppose some would say it is too passive, since it is surrendering to what is, rather than something more complicated. I guess one could critique that existence is not personal to me. I dunno, my existence is pretty personal to me, but isn't the whole point of the steps to get out of self? I cannot see how groveling to an imaginary daddy in the sky, who is personal, would accomplish that.
Thoughts? If anyone has suggestions or thoughts on any of it, particularly 7, I would very much appreciate it.
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: MD
Posts: 658
I like the notion that stating there is no higher power is as much a statement of faith as acknowledging a higher power of some type. Not arguing for adopting some belief or another, only that perhaps the idea is to leave the mind undecided.
My 7th step consisted of deciding to act as if the defects I had worked out in my inventory and 5th step had been removed; having gained some awareness I could then choose to act differently. Its very clear to me that I am still capable of resentment & obsession; those defects are not removed I remain free of them to the extent I maintain my spiritual fitness. My chosen methods of spiritual fitness are physical self-care (exercise, rest, diet), study of 12-Step material, listening to speaker recordings, service in program and similar work in my chosen spiritual practice- it seems reasonable to me to think there are workable athiest/agnostic alternatives for the latter.
My 7th step consisted of deciding to act as if the defects I had worked out in my inventory and 5th step had been removed; having gained some awareness I could then choose to act differently. Its very clear to me that I am still capable of resentment & obsession; those defects are not removed I remain free of them to the extent I maintain my spiritual fitness. My chosen methods of spiritual fitness are physical self-care (exercise, rest, diet), study of 12-Step material, listening to speaker recordings, service in program and similar work in my chosen spiritual practice- it seems reasonable to me to think there are workable athiest/agnostic alternatives for the latter.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by schnappi99 
I like the notion that stating there is no higher power is as much a statement of faith as acknowledging a higher power of some type. Not arguing for adopting some belief or another, only that perhaps the idea is to leave the mind undecided.
What he was pointing to was the word "Dhamma" which has no equivolent word in english. Something so broad and esoteric in nature that it is neither higher/lower/inside/outside of self nor is it limited in any way what-so-ever.
What I myself turned my life over to is "Principles". Whether those princiles are contained in the 12 steps or in the 8 fold path is irrelevant.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: glasgow scotland
Posts: 1,004
To me its an ''inside job '' the power is ''within '' call it what you like , conscience ,intuition , clarity , aha or light bulb or eureka moments '' the inner voice , knowing you are doing the right thing . Only for ''simplicity '' reasons do I call it God/Higher Power '' it is ''unimportant '' to what I call the power it is more important to ''how I feel '' about it , it is mine to believe ,my understanding , and my business . take care . keep it simple , that is the ''selfish '' program for ''complicated people ''
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
words are easy music is much harder .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
words are easy music is much harder .
Trudgin
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
The good or bad news ( depending on ones choice of perspective) is that our character defects are not going anywhere anytime soon. Perhaps until the end of Existence.
I just take the actions and don't worry about the results - that works for me today.
I just take the actions and don't worry about the results - that works for me today.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: glasgow scotland
Posts: 1,004
Hi Boleo .
Out with the old and in with the new , be rid of self and be selfless is my objective on a daily basis . I looked at an old thread the other day and took note of ''Refuge Recovery '' I am going to get the book asap and also the'' Buddhism and the 12 Steps recovery workbook '' by '' Kevin Griffin '' I have been very interested in eastern and esoteric matters since I read '' Autobiography of a Yogi '' by Parhamansa Yogananda , take care .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
words are easy music is much harder
Out with the old and in with the new , be rid of self and be selfless is my objective on a daily basis . I looked at an old thread the other day and took note of ''Refuge Recovery '' I am going to get the book asap and also the'' Buddhism and the 12 Steps recovery workbook '' by '' Kevin Griffin '' I have been very interested in eastern and esoteric matters since I read '' Autobiography of a Yogi '' by Parhamansa Yogananda , take care .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
words are easy music is much harder
Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Ireland
Posts: 351
Initially I used the group as my Higher power as I also had problems with the God part but with time and non coincidences "I came to believe of a God of my own understanding" which I believe really helped until I came not to believe 8 years later and began to resent the believers.
I don't know what happened or why but I felt it so cringe wordy, I actually stopped going to big book meetings and would huddle down the back of the newcomer's meetings.
I eventually got sick of listening to war stories and the obsession came back which nearly cost me my life.
This is how it happened, then came the isolation on top of resentment, frustration, anger and complacency and then the liqueur.
I struggled like hell to stop, slashed my wrists, overdosed and yet I couldn't do that properly.
One thing I do remember is dropping to my knees in a horrendous condition and ask God for help.
I haven't taken another drink since then or a drug and that was Dec 30th,
I know it's early day's 25 days but the cravings are gone, don't know why they left so quick as it never happened like that before but then again I am on my knees every morning to ask for help and every evening to thank him for keeping me sane and sober.
I know some people who are agnostics and use nature and the rooms as their higher power or some use their Mum or Dad who have passed.
It seems to work for them so who am I to judge but I do believe one needs someone to get through this.
I was born Catholic and when I was homeless, who took me in their convent, The missionaries of Charity for 9 months, they fed me and gave me hope but I still wasn't buying the religion thing.
But I watched and learned and wondered why are these Nuns so happy and would give you the food out of their own mouths, they never judged anyone and I cried many a time while they comforted me.
They loved me and the rest of the guys that were there unconditionally.
When I asked , Why do you do so much for us and all we are is a bunch of drunks, and one nun replied "you all maybe drunks but we see God in each and everyone of you" Also part of it is like our step 12 helping others in need brings them closer to their God.
These nuns have nothing, as I got better and stronger I was able to drive and I brought one of the Nuns to the Airport who was moving on for good, I remember the day Clearly, I popped the booth for her suitcase and awaited outside until she came out of her quarters.
I couldn't believe my eyes when I seen her arrive with a pair of sandles in one hand and a bible in the other and a plastic bag with a change of clothing.
I was blown away, these Nuns thought me so much about material things which I don't dwell on anymore and it makes life a lot simpler.
I don't know what happened or why but I felt it so cringe wordy, I actually stopped going to big book meetings and would huddle down the back of the newcomer's meetings.
I eventually got sick of listening to war stories and the obsession came back which nearly cost me my life.
This is how it happened, then came the isolation on top of resentment, frustration, anger and complacency and then the liqueur.
I struggled like hell to stop, slashed my wrists, overdosed and yet I couldn't do that properly.
One thing I do remember is dropping to my knees in a horrendous condition and ask God for help.
I haven't taken another drink since then or a drug and that was Dec 30th,
I know it's early day's 25 days but the cravings are gone, don't know why they left so quick as it never happened like that before but then again I am on my knees every morning to ask for help and every evening to thank him for keeping me sane and sober.
I know some people who are agnostics and use nature and the rooms as their higher power or some use their Mum or Dad who have passed.
It seems to work for them so who am I to judge but I do believe one needs someone to get through this.
I was born Catholic and when I was homeless, who took me in their convent, The missionaries of Charity for 9 months, they fed me and gave me hope but I still wasn't buying the religion thing.
But I watched and learned and wondered why are these Nuns so happy and would give you the food out of their own mouths, they never judged anyone and I cried many a time while they comforted me.
They loved me and the rest of the guys that were there unconditionally.
When I asked , Why do you do so much for us and all we are is a bunch of drunks, and one nun replied "you all maybe drunks but we see God in each and everyone of you" Also part of it is like our step 12 helping others in need brings them closer to their God.
These nuns have nothing, as I got better and stronger I was able to drive and I brought one of the Nuns to the Airport who was moving on for good, I remember the day Clearly, I popped the booth for her suitcase and awaited outside until she came out of her quarters.
I couldn't believe my eyes when I seen her arrive with a pair of sandles in one hand and a bible in the other and a plastic bag with a change of clothing.
I was blown away, these Nuns thought me so much about material things which I don't dwell on anymore and it makes life a lot simpler.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: glasgow scotland
Posts: 1,004
Thanks Boleo I had to look up ''annata'' and it appears to mean ''self realization '' the book I mentioned '' Autobiography of a Yogi '' is the main objective so perhaps ? I am on the right track ( for me ) .
Regards Stevie.
Regards Stevie.
p***enger
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,027
I get you on Step 7. I wouldn't overthink it, but on the other hand, it's nice to have a frame of reference, like "existence", so that you can mentally run through the steps from time to time, and if "god" makes you stumble, how do you de-god the 7th step?
I would say, 'Knowing my limitations, consciously renounced my shortcomings."
This has been really important for me. It took me a long while to become ready, but at least for the things I'm aware of, I feel fine now saying, I'm done with such-and-such a way of being. It's wrong and I give it up.
In terms of existence, I've gotten a lot of mileage out of the concept of the universal atman. But y'all have probably milked that topic dry.
I would say, 'Knowing my limitations, consciously renounced my shortcomings."
This has been really important for me. It took me a long while to become ready, but at least for the things I'm aware of, I feel fine now saying, I'm done with such-and-such a way of being. It's wrong and I give it up.
In terms of existence, I've gotten a lot of mileage out of the concept of the universal atman. But y'all have probably milked that topic dry.
waking down
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,641
Originally Posted by stevieg46
Hi Boleo .
Out with the old and in with the new , be rid of self and be selfless is my objective on a daily basis . I looked at an old thread the other day and took note of ''Refuge Recovery '' I am going to get the book asap and also the'' Buddhism and the 12 Steps recovery workbook '' by '' Kevin Griffin '' I have been very interested in eastern and esoteric matters since I read '' Autobiography of a Yogi '' by Parhamansa Yogananda , take care .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
words are easy music is much harder
Out with the old and in with the new , be rid of self and be selfless is my objective on a daily basis . I looked at an old thread the other day and took note of ''Refuge Recovery '' I am going to get the book asap and also the'' Buddhism and the 12 Steps recovery workbook '' by '' Kevin Griffin '' I have been very interested in eastern and esoteric matters since I read '' Autobiography of a Yogi '' by Parhamansa Yogananda , take care .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
words are easy music is much harder
NA Member - Atheist
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Middletown CT USA
Posts: 770
Originally Posted by Boleo
What I myself turned my life over to is "Principles". Whether those principles are contained in the 12 steps or in the 8 fold path is irrelevant.
Originally Posted by Boleo
Actually it is one of my objectives to be a Yogi: 50% physical and 90% mental.
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 600
Humility comes first - then using whatever we've identified in step 3 as a god of our understanding to remove our shortcomings. It's a progression step, continually progressing with humility, using our higher power to remove the defects of character identified in steps 4 and 5.
It' a simple program for complicated people, try not to complicate it.
It' a simple program for complicated people, try not to complicate it.
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