stevieg46

Thanks Zero I have been in and around 12 step recovery alcohol and gambling since 1969 , I have seen a lot of changes over many years , today I am 10 years recovered in AA but that is neither here nor there .

Fact is AA is ahead of the game due to the longevity of it just over 80 years to date . As AA is non profit I do not feel that AA is to ''blame '' for how things are today , rehabs sprang up and ''adopted the AA way as publicity became common '' and 12 step programs became ''fashionable '' in some areas and ''acceptable to many '' then courts got involved again due to notoriety and sentenced people to AA rather than send them to prison , again that is no fault of AA . Former AA people started up recovery centers as a business Betty Ford for example .

Personally I think the courts have made a huge mistake ''by ordering people to attend AA '' or else ? only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking , ''ordering people does not work '' and that can cause untold resentment because at the end of the day AA program is ''suggested '' that is a fact no matter what individuals say or believe to be true, it '' AA states that in their literature and preamble so that is a fact ''.

Personally I agree with Fini about individuals putting in ''effort '' to get other avenues more widely available , AA might not have been as well known if individuals back then did not put in lots of effort .

We will probably be all dead when Lifering , Smart , AVRT , Refuge Recovery become as popular as AA it is all down to individuals to make the effort , and it can succeed if money is not involved .

Personally I am a member of AA and online with Lifering for near 9 years , and am presently reading Refuge Recovery and I have a passion for Eastern Esoteric practices including meditation , it is all down to have an ''open mind '' and open to change or suggestion , I also have no liking for religion as its simply ''not for me '' . I usually sign off my posts with '' If a man hears a different drummer , let him march to the drummer he hears '' which is appropriate in matters of recovery /spirituality /religion , funny how there are no ''spiritual wars '' . I can think of

Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006

fini

zero,
alternatives are just that, and not competition.
they offer different things.
for different reasons.
from different points of view.
with different goals.

zerothehero

fini, I agree completely. What I meant was the folks at my local AA house view alternatives as competition - but it's not about money. They want to keep people in the fold - and I don't blame them in the sense that they are confident AA is the right choice for people, and alternatives are unknown and of unknown quality (to them). Come to think of it, they do have a financial motivation in that they need donations to keep the house going much like a church passes the basket to help pay for overhead. There's only so many of us to support their space. I'm convinced, however, that a Refuge Recovery group could bring in others who would shy away from AA. We would pass the basket and give it to the house. It's a win-win.

zerothehero

Okay, y'all convinced me... I got a Big Book and I'm going to start reading it. I'm taking a class in May (Principles of Addiction Treatment), but in June I'll be 30 months sober, so I'm gonna risk going to the local AA house (nothing is anonymous in this town) for the weekly Big Book study group, and maybe a Step Study group. I'll keep an open mind and maybe even get a sponsor. I want to experience it if only because I'm interested in eventually becoming a certified addiction counselor. I'll learn something if nothing else, and maybe I can eventually start a 12th step meditation/Refuge Recovery group. I kind of need to get over my attitude about AA, but my experiences in various groups (all out of town) have not been great. We'll see...

stevieg46

Zero you have nothing to lose and ''perhaps ''something to gain , you seem very focused and well balanced without the AA program so kudos to you , Big Book study groups if done correctly are an excellent addition to the usual AA meetings as are the 12 Step study groups , at the end of the day if nothing else it will always be another string to your bow .

I have experienced the spiritual awakening through rigorous appliance of the steps and it is a wonderful experience to have , AA puts it so well '' a life beyond your wildest dreams '' it has improved and affected every single thing in my life for the better and I have ''tremendous peace of mind '' I handle good bad and indifferent everyday experiences very easily and effortlessly .

Hope everything falls into place piece by piece , my advice if any is give it a real good effort and make a plan and if it bears fruit stick to it , getting rid of or old ideas and the 3 rd Step are the ''key '' , take care .

Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006

zerothehero

Step 3 could be a tough one, though I can say I've turned my life (and in some ways my will) over to The Four Noble Truths and my Buddhist practice. Seems like a stretch, but...

And that practice alone has led to a type of spiritual awakening already. I've grown more in 28 months of sobriety than I did in the previous 28 years.

stevieg46

Great progress Zero, growth is what it is all about, firstly the seed is planted then we have to nurture it from time to time getting rid of any weeds that appear when we recognize them , I have always been attracted to eastern esoteric influences and it is part of the package that helps me maintain my spiritual progress . I searched for 30 odd years looking for something like a ''button ''to press which would give me an answer to the emptiness within me , tried all sorts of meditations which were very good . Today I am happy to say I found what I was searching for and it was ''within'' all these years .

The kingdom of God in a spiritual sense is within , heaven is on earth as is hell , I have a copy of Refuge Recovery and it is very good , I enjoy reading today for pleasure and without looking for answers , everything I have ever read only gave me information and in some ways helped to separate the wheat from the chaff , but I did find some understanding , take care .

Stevie

fred59

we have a judge here in San Jose who attends the 12 step meeting where he sends many people in his court, kinda makes me sick that these people have no choice. Smart Recovery at Kaiser in the south bay is a good meeting and I really like Life Ring but is dying here, AA rules and unfortunately most people in recovery only here about AA

zerothehero

I've been reading the Big Book, and the more I read the more I have to say I agree with you, Fred. Even the chapter on "We Agnostics" comes across like, "Don't worry, you'll come around and eventually believe in a Higher Power because it's your only hope." Ouch.

awuh1

Zero, you must be reading a different book than I am. Can you quote anything in that chapter that sounds anything remotely like what you paraphrased. Hopefully a sentence or two that contains the word 'you'?

zerothehero

From Chapter IV:

"...you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer."

"To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face."

"...we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life- or else."

It also makes it clear that the idea of a Higher Power, even though they say it should be your own conception, refers to an "All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence," and agnostics and atheists have a sort of "prejudice" (the word is used repeatedly) against the idea. It says we are "vain," misinterpreting agnosticism and atheism as meaning we choose "to believe that our human intelligence was the last word." But is it not vain to believe a God is interested and involved in your every move or thought?

There are also attempts to appeal to reason and logic, alluding to Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason by more or less arguing that because we can conceive of God that God must exist.

Nay, we must "lay aside our prejudice" and our "biases" and have "faith."

The next chapter gets more detailed, speaking of a God that has the power to "rid [us] of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes this possible." This speaks not just of any conception of a Higher Power, but a very specific kind of Higher Power that has volition and the ability to "restore us to sanity."

"Many of us said to our Maker, as we understood Him: 'God, I offer myself to Thee-to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!' ...we could abandon ourselves utterly to Him."

No, this isn't just any broad understanding or conception of a Higher Power; this is most definitely a belief in God - a God that listens to our prayers - a God that busies Himself in our lives and helps if we seek Him and surrender our lives to Him.

I only bother with this post because I was asked, but I suspect that discussions about The Big Book between the faithful and those who have not been blessed with faith will be akin to arguing about the Bible. There isn't much point in it.

And don't get me wrong, for those who have faith and for those for whom AA works, I'm genuinely happy for you. But this conversation is about the fact that in many communities AA is the only available avenue and seems to crowd out alternatives. The Big Book's chapter on "We Agnostics" is not very convincing. I actually found it condescending to nontheists, and if I were in a more fragile place, I might just walk away feeling more hopeless. It's just like my experiences with evangelicals when I was an undergrad - they had all kinds of quotes and reasons why I was doomed.

There are many models of addiction (biological, psychological, social, cultural, spiritual, moral...), of which spirituality is but one. To adhere to that one model and tell people who disagree they are biased and prejudiced and hopeless is, well, kind of rude, really - kind of like saying my religion is right so yours must be wrong.

stevieg46

Hi Zero I agree with everything you say and how you interpret parts of the Book , fact is and no-one can deny it the 12 Step program and the Big Book all encompass, religion ,psychology , spirituality , 6 Steps from Oxfords (religious ) Bill Wilson wrote the other 6 ''rumors are they come from sermon on the mount '' personally do not believe so .

What makes it all feasible is to my mind ''psychology '' freedom of choice , Higher Power of your own understanding , traditions explain outside issues so religion is an outside issue so leave it at the door , but personally if one favors religion then that should remain personal to them .

Purpose of the Book is to find a Power , lack of power was our dilemma , self will was the root cause of our problem that is centered in the mind .
3 pertinent ideas ,A, powerless over alcohol , could not manage our own lives , B, no human power could relieve our alcoholism , C. God ( as we understand ) could and would if we ask him/it ? ( my it ) choice

My HP as I have said many times comes from the NT in Luke ., but I do not apply it in any religious manner ''choice'' I call the Power ''pal /friend buddy whatever comes to mind not written in stone .

I agree totally on the Agnostics chapter, I have seen many bristling with anger because of the way it is explained , but at the end of the day what it comes down to is the bottom line . Lack of power , no human power (meaning us or sponsors etc ) our personal histories and experiences make it clear as Einstein said''insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results''
that is meaning under our own steam ''our old ideas '' we need new ones and need to believe in a ''source , force '' from elsewhere . My source comes from ''within NT kingdom of God /Heaven (HP MY CHOICE ) is within '' to me heaven is on earth as is hell there is no up there or down there , my hell in my past came from within . Zero it is like holding up a teacup between you and I and saying ''what side is the handle on , one sees it on the right the one opposite sees it on the left '' to me that is simplicity, big BUT !! question ?'' are we willing to go to any lengths '' individually we can complicate the hell out of it . take care my friend .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006

murrill

As a newcomer to AA many years ago I was at odds with the Higher Power issues. Talk of churches, Bibles, religion, etc left me angry and frustrated. I hoped to find respite in "We Agnostics," but my take was similar to what zerothehero described: It seemed to say, "You're going to have to go along with this God-thing if you want what we have." Its purpose, it seemed, was to close any loopholes the atheists and agnostics might propose.
I have remained sober for many years as the result of AA and some other good supports. Ironically, I arrived at the fellowship steeped in a Protestant upbringing that I believed had failed me, but it was AA's spiritual orientation that gave me space to become comfortable as a non-theist.
Somehow, through no brilliance of my own, I adapted the language; I came to understand spirituality as an adjustment in my relationship with the universe: I am an essential cog, neither too large nor too small. I am spiritually healthy when I am "right sized." It is an over-simplification, I guess, but instead of an interventionist deity who demands adherence to rigid dogma, I find comfort in a universal wisdom.
The difference, as I see it, is a shift in my relationship with the universe, with the size of my ego. Honestly, I have sometimes envied the God-HP crowd: It seems it would be so much simpler to go with the commercially acceptable versions. But that just does not work for me.
Sorry if I've rambled.

zerothehero

Thanks for the replies. There is a lot of wisdom in the book, and I especially connect to the passages about resentments. I, too, believe I have been cultivating a deep spiritual life since I got sober a few years ago. I've returned to the Big Book in the same spirit that I once read the Bible; read it for its historical significance, take in the wisdom, and don't worry about the contradictions, accusations, and harsh warnings and condemnations.

Ken33xx

According to the Susan Cheever's book, "My Name is Bill" BW wrote the other 6 steps in about 30 minutes while sitting in bed one evening.

miamifella

A local clubhouse is hosting a new Refuge Recovery group and announcing the Refuge meetings to all the AA, NA, CMA, etc group meetings there.

zerothehero

Very cool. No such luck here.

awuh1

Thanks Zero, I appreciate your thoughtful post. You even provided a quote with the word "you"!

The crux of my problem was the way you attempted to summarize the chapter by characterizing it's message as "Don't worry, you'll come around and eventually believe in a Higher Power because it's your only hope." Lets start with the quotes you site to back this up. They do not support your paraphrase. In fact they serve to contradict this thesis.

The book says "...you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer." Your paraphrase says "you'll come around and eventually believe in a Higher Power because it's your only hope". It says "may be" and your paraphrase says "it's your only hope". Quite different meanings.

Next you site the sentence which states, "To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face." What you left out was information from the previous sentence which makes clear that this choice refers to the conundrum faced by "an alcoholic of the hopeless variety". It does not say every alcoholic is hopeless. Here again, the meaning is different from "you'll come around and believe... it's your only hope" which implies that all alcoholics must make this choice.

Thirdly you quote the book which says "...we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life- or else." The book says we, your paraphrase says you. There were only 100 members of AA when that book was written. Much of the book is about their experience and they were nearly all of that "hopeless" variety. It speaks of their experience, it does not say what the reader must do.

Next you reference the use of the words "All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence". It does use these words, but refers to this concept as an assumption! Its not referring to it as something that the reader must believe because "it's your only hope".

Moving on to biases (prejudice as the book refers to it). They exist and everyone has them. They influence your judgement. For example, if you are 100% convinced of something, no amount of data to the contrary will convince you that you are wrong. This inherent bias in our thinking is the reason we have Bayesian statistics in the analysis of experimental data. My favorite example to illustrate Bayesian probability is the "Monty Hall problem". Sometimes our thinking can be quite faulty. This is simply pointing that out.

Next you paraphrase the book as saying, "we must lay aside our 'prejudice' and our 'biases' and have 'faith'. Well no, it does not. It says "We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. "Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?" It's also a statement of fact. A fact about the people in AA at the time the book was written. It's speaking about their experience, not what the reader must do. It's talking about their willingness to believe.

There is a lot in your post and I've addressed only the first part of it. Perhaps more later if I have time. The point is that there are subtle (but distinct) differences between what the book states and the meaning you take from it. Consider the possibility that this may have something to do with your current beliefs.

awuh1

This is true. Bill himself wrote that this took place one evening in December of 1938.

zerothehero

You do a good job of countering my points with references to the text, but again...