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Why isn't LifeRing, RR, SMART etc "taught" more in rehab centers?



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Why isn't LifeRing, RR, SMART etc "taught" more in rehab centers?

Old 05-24-2015, 05:54 PM
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The entire rehab was hinged on 12 Step philosophy and protocol, Miamifella. The whole shebang. The steps posted up on the walls, reading from the "Just For Today" NA book, sign-in sheets requiring us to list whether we'd been to a meeting the night before, what Step we were currently on, whether we had a sponsor. The whole deal

I managed to keep mature about things though, and focused on getting as much as I could from the group therapy aspect. Had there not been the group therapy talk and feedback, it wouldn't have worked for me at all. In fact, when it was over, I wanted so badly to continue that group support that I looked all around for something similar and couldn't find it.

So I decided to go into individual therapy. It just wasn't the same.

Ah well... with the support on SR I made it through
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Old 05-24-2015, 06:00 PM
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here in Vancouver there is a Lifering meeting in two in-patient treatment centres, and another in a "daytox" centre, i.e. outpatient.
these came about because of some very determined LR people who put a lot of effort into contacting the centres and offering a presentation to the staff and , later, clientele.
this was a lot of work. i know the people who did it. it took a lot of planning.

and because LR is not terrifically well-established yet, yes, concern about access to meetings after leaving the treatment centre is a valid one.
as might well be the fact that LR in fact has no program and is no program.
which is, equally, its draw and its drawback. depending on your pov.

if people want LR meetings/options in rehab centres, those who have used LR as support need to give back and make that happen by putting in the footwork.
many rehabs are actually very interested in having choices for peer support they can offer their patients/clients.
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Old 05-24-2015, 06:59 PM
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I agree with miamifella - there are lots of AA/NA meetings to match clients up with, but not many other groups.

In the detox center that I habitually attended, people from AA, NA and CA came in to chair meetings several times a week. The counselors loved this because it provided free baby sitting - the clients were kept entertained for an hour (or more) at a time, and the counselors were freed up to catch up on paperwork, or whatever else they did while not dealing directly with clients.

Also, AA volunteers took clients out to meetings in the community most evenings. Most clients loved this because it gave them a chance to smoke (>99% of the clients were smokers, and smoking was banned in the whole detox property). The bad news was that some clients smuggled cigs back into the detox building after going out to AA meetings, and many were subsequently thrown out for smoking surreptitiously in the building. This didn't attract me because I have never smoked.

The relationship between the detox establishment and AA was mutually beneficial - the counselors got a bit of free time, the clients got to smoke once a day, and the AA groups had a captive audience to practice step 12 (spreading the word) plus a steady stream of new recruits. So it is not surprising that the counselors pushed the AA message.
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Old 05-25-2015, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueChair View Post
This is interesting too. I think the premise for rehab is supposed to be the scientific, medical view because its evidence based. We know about the brain and chemicals . This is what my husbands rehab taught. Science doesnt dictate addiction is spiritual condition or any ideas about being powerless. Ive never seen it presented at least. think it depends on what kind of rehab a person selects as to what line of thinking they present to their patients. Great thread by the way.
I think the premise for rehab appears on some levels to be scientific (at least the rehabs I have attended and studied) but its more of a mix, and I have to say in my observation the Science sometimes comes in a poor second. Its not that the science, the brain chemistry, the disease model, the psychology and other well researched information is woven into the rehab programs its mixing together of messages that can turn it into more pseudo science. The picture of the brain on the wall some how gets less attention than the "expect a miracle" sign over the door.

"Science doesn't dictate that addiction is spiritual condition or any ideas about being powerless"
Actually science doesn't dictate anything, its a method,. People however do dictate this stuff, its undeniably part of the operations of many rehabs. My point with all this it can be a confusing mix of messages.
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Old 05-25-2015, 01:34 PM
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I think that many things come into factor including:
Familiarity: there are still many out there who are not familiar with alternatives to AA
Ease of Access: There are many more AA meetings
Service work/Outreach: AA puts a big emphasis on service work. Volunteers take meetings to hospitals, rehabs and other institutions. Other programs do not put such an emphasis on being of service to other alcoholics (with the exception of Celebrate Recovery).
I think Fini nailed it
if people want LR meetings/options in rehab centres, those who have used LR as support need to give back and make that happen by putting in the footwork.
I did not go to rehab but when I decided to get back in recovery, I knew where AA meetings were located. I have been drifting lately more toward mindfulness and Refuge Recovery which at this stage of my journey is a better fit.
If it was not for someone posting about it on SR, I would never even have known of its existence.
I knew of Women For Sobriety (my sponsor back East attended too) but they meet only once a week in one location and they really don't do any outreach.
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Old 05-25-2015, 09:23 PM
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AA is off topic on the Secular Connections forum so I moved the thread to this forum since all the posts have been respectful. It doesn't quite fit here, but I didn't know where to move it.
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Old 05-25-2015, 09:29 PM
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My wife went for treatment at a facility that I felt was very sophisticated and up-to date. They incorporated Twelve-Step meetings, probably because that is what is available in most communities when the patients went home.
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Old 05-26-2015, 06:47 AM
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The other factor that hasn't been mentioned is that in some places, AA operates effectively as a sober mafia, and has spent years building influence with local rehabs and boards that certify them. A guy I know in LifeRing discovered this in a northern CA county, trying to get the local agencies that set rules on where people are mandated to go after DUIs and the like to follow the law and let people have secular alternatives. Stone walls. He had to threaten legal action to get them to talk to him. Another guy I know in the Denver area actually got death threats (Yes! Incredible!) from local AA people for starting up "competing" secular recovery groups on AA turf. So some of the resistance that exists has been carefully orchestrated by people who view rehabs as a source of new members and potential converts. Just the way it is.
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Old 05-26-2015, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
AA is off topic on the Secular Connections forum so I moved the thread to this forum since all the posts have been respectful. It doesn't quite fit here, but I didn't know where to move it.


lol ok.

Thank you
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Old 05-26-2015, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK View Post
The other factor that hasn't been mentioned is that in some places, AA operates effectively as a sober mafia, and has spent years building influence with local rehabs and boards that certify them. A guy I know in LifeRing discovered this in a northern CA county, trying to get the local agencies that set rules on where people are mandated to go after DUIs and the like to follow the law and let people have secular alternatives. Stone walls. He had to threaten legal action to get them to talk to him. Another guy I know in the Denver area actually got death threats (Yes! Incredible!) from local AA people for starting up "competing" secular recovery groups on AA turf. So some of the resistance that exists has been carefully orchestrated by people who view rehabs as a source of new members and potential converts. Just the way it is.
Thank you for this. I totally believe it.
I think it was in a recent article by the Atlantic where it found other recovery methods were being effectively shut out, and by deliberate act.
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Old 05-26-2015, 12:43 PM
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The idea of alternatives not having as many face to face meetings is valid right now, but I also feel the need to ask what is the exact benefit of going to a meeting? Does this act need to be re-examined? With Smart for example, you can go online 24/7 and chat, post, go to online meetings, get certified attendance for people who need this to meet req, you can cross talk. But the idea of the meetings are generally to help a person learn specific tools/skills so they retain control and self reliance. The group doesnt take on the same role for the individual in my opinion. Smart says people can keep up support for as long as they wish but the idea of "reliance on group" is different I think. Several people on this thread have shared how SR has helped, and I think over time one can establish a network of friends in recovery online, socialization. Thought Id toss this idea out there because maybe society also needs to rework ideas of support, and its not always about a need to be sitting physically in a meeting. My husband doesnt use support groups. He doesnt really have friends in recovery at all. I have met supportive friends through SR and Smart online.
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Old 05-26-2015, 12:48 PM
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BlueChair, I was actually surprised to see the Women For Sobriety meetings on the rehab list. All of the meetings that were listed were face to face, of course. It made me wonder why they wouldn't at least mention online SMART meetings. Or Lifering (although I have no info on Lifering as I somehow never looked into that one).

I made a point many times in our Continuing Care classes to mention SR. I got blank stares The counselor questioned me about it and just never seemed to "get" that it was a viable option. And that's really a shame.
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Old 05-26-2015, 12:57 PM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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My 22-day inpatient stay was also 12-step based. We had optional AA meetings every night, and mandatory AA meetings once per week (Sunday nights). The meetings were all held at the facility (it was also a medical center/university hospital). There were lots of attendees from "outside" and we were encouraged to participate. I remember acting as a "greeter" a few times and being happy to do it because there wasn't much else to do at rehab in the evenings.

There were good things and bad things about being force-fed AA in treatment. On the one hand, I didn't feel like it was a great fit, and didn't identify with the prayers, etc. On the other hand, I was in rehab and if there's one thing I needed, it was a little discipline and structure. In the end I accepted AA was just part of the combo-meal and while I wasn't a huge fan, it did me good.

All that said, it would have been great to be presented with alternative options instead of AA every night. If they said "you must go to a meeting but you can pick which one", I would have shopped around more. Of course, a rehab center forms cliques and groups really quickly, and I can easily see how everyone would just follow the "cool kids" if they gave us a lot of options. Also, AA provided speakers that were available every night. I'd imagine it would be difficult for other programs to match that availability, and those who coordinated such events would have their hands full. Why book non-AA speakers if only 1 or 2 people are going to show?

In the end, sometimes people who've lost their way (ie those in rehab) don't need a huge sampling of options. They need to be told that breakfast is at 6am, lunch is at noon, AA meetings are at 6pm, and lights out are at 9pm. If you don't like it, too bad. The world doesn't revolve around your schedule, your wants, your cravings, and your problems. Alcoholics need to hear that and start living that way, especially in the early goings.
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Old 05-26-2015, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SoberJennie View Post
BlueChair, I was actually surprised to see the Women For Sobriety meetings on the rehab list. All of the meetings that were listed were face to face, of course. It made me wonder why they wouldn't at least mention online SMART meetings. Or Lifering (although I have no info on Lifering as I somehow never looked into that one).

I made a point many times in our Continuing Care classes to mention SR. I got blank stares The counselor questioned me about it and just never seemed to "get" that it was a viable option. And that's really a shame.
I spent some time looking at their program in the past. (I know Im a nerd. Ive studied almost all of them to some degree). But was going to say, it looks to be very empowering to women. Ive been hearing some concern over women needing special programs because often the situations they find themselves in can differ drastically from what men experience. Its good the rehab you went to was in tune with this.
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Old 05-26-2015, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK View Post
AA operates effectively as a sober mafia, and has spent years building influence with local rehabs and boards that certify them. Another guy I know in the Denver area actually got death threats (Yes! Incredible!) from local AA people for starting up "competing" secular recovery groups on AA turf. So some of the resistance that exists has been carefully orchestrated by people who view rehabs as a source of new members and potential converts. Just the way it is.
WOW that's incredible, literally. Second hand information passed along as fact. Not only is it passed along as fact, but it comes complete with a nonsensical 'motivation' of 'competition' strong enough to generate death threats . I'm sorry but I had to laugh when I read this.

What is the nature of this motivation to stamp out the "competition"? Is it financial? I don't think so. Nobody financially benefits from AA. There are no dues of fees. Perhaps it has something to do with power, prestige or fame. No, I don't think that's it either. AA members are anonymous. Perhaps the 'competitive' motivation is religious? Well that seems absurd on it's face, especially because the power greater than self can literally be anything, from ocean waves to doorknobs.

" AA operates effectively as a sober mafia"... "some of the resistance that exists has been carefully orchestrated".

It's truly amazing what some people can be lead to believe.
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Old 05-26-2015, 06:18 PM
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BlueChair,
before i went to my first LR meeting i thought just as you did.
it's not til i went that i could know the difference f2f makes.
and i was only going to go once; in fact, i was terrified to walk into a room of strangers but real live people (hoping they were all strangers and that i didn't know anyone and, more to the point, that nobody know ME!) and by doing that "admit" to real live people that i had a "problem with alcohol". even though i knew in LR there was no expectation i'd label myself in any way.

the very fact i found it so overwhelmingly scary told me how different it is.

i knew i needed to make myself go just once, in order to acknowledge to myself on a different level my "condition".

turns out i loved it! soooo helpful. went once a week for a couple of years; such a relief!
still friends with one guy, years later. we're having coffee tomorrow. we probably won't speak about LR or alcoholism at all, but it is a part of our understanding of each other and makes for a different , trusting relationship.
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Old 05-26-2015, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
WOW that's incredible, literally. Second hand information passed along as fact. Not only is it passed along as fact, but it comes complete with a nonsensical 'motivation' of 'competition' strong enough to generate death threats . I'm sorry but I had to laugh when I read this.

What is the nature of this motivation to stamp out the "competition"? Is it financial? I don't think so. Nobody financially benefits from AA. There are no dues of fees. Perhaps it has something to do with power, prestige or fame. No, I don't think that's it either. AA members are anonymous. Perhaps the 'competitive' motivation is religious? Well that seems absurd on it's face, especially because the power greater than self can literally be anything, from ocean waves to doorknobs.

" AA operates effectively as a sober mafia"... "some of the resistance that exists has been carefully orchestrated".

It's truly amazing what some people can be lead to believe.
What's incredible is that you think I'm making this up, I know both people personally and got it straight from the horse's mouth. You should be more open-minded, the world isn't always what it seems and you don't have to defend AA to the last breath no matter what people actually do in the name of AA.
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Old 05-26-2015, 06:29 PM
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I had the same experience as Fini going into the face to face meetings. More anxiety than online because it's "real" and you are looking people in the eyes. The payoff is so worth it, though.

SMART online meetings were all I had available that were non-12 step back in 2003 and they helped. It was heavily tool-based and some of the worksheets have stuck with me, in my mind. I can still write ABC's and CBA's without actually writing them down or typing them.

Women For Sobriety is the only non-12 Step meeting I've ever attended face to face. Mixed feelings about it. It was good early on, but I found after a while, I didn't get much from it anymore. It seemed to be geared toward newcomers and surface talk. I missed the depth of real group therapy.

AA meetings were good for me in the sense that I got to hear some oldtimer stories. But I had to put up with a lot of nonsense for that. And I had to deal with some PTSD as well, directly related to having gone to AA meetings with my mom as a child.

SR is great but the face to face support I got at IOP and Continuing Care was the best support as far as real interactions with people. I feel that SR is my "maintenance" support.
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Old 05-26-2015, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bigsombrero View Post
In the end, sometimes people who've lost their way (ie those in rehab) don't need a huge sampling of options. They need to be told that breakfast is at 6am, lunch is at noon, AA meetings are at 6pm, and lights out are at 9pm.
True to a point, by the time I finished my final detox I was pretty lost, beaten down, just keep the blinders on and march. The danger though is that that's when people are the most vulnerable to external control, and even though I was beaten down, I had enough of myself left to know what my core beliefs and philosophies were.
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Old 05-27-2015, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
WOW that's incredible, literally. Second hand information passed along as fact. Not only is it passed along as fact, but it comes complete with a nonsensical 'motivation' of 'competition' strong enough to generate death threats . I'm sorry but I had to laugh when I read this.

What is the nature of this motivation to stamp out the "competition"? Is it financial? I don't think so. Nobody financially benefits from AA. There are no dues of fees. Perhaps it has something to do with power, prestige or fame. No, I don't think that's it either. AA members are anonymous. Perhaps the 'competitive' motivation is religious? Well that seems absurd on it's face, especially because the power greater than self can literally be anything, from ocean waves to doorknobs.

" AA operates effectively as a sober mafia"... "some of the resistance that exists has been carefully orchestrated".

It's truly amazing what some people can be lead to believe.
If you would like a first hand account I can tell you that Ive been bullied, harassed, verbally attacked, had people wish ill will on my family; hoping my husband would relapse back to opiates, wishing my dog would be run over and killed by a car. Ive seen all kinds of backhanded, passive aggressive tricks to keep alternative programs from being shared in 12 step dominated arenas. Ive had counselors who are trained in 12 step and who have supposedly come out the other side and are now helping others; tell me they don’t know anything else, don’t have a desire to learn anything else, and when other ideas are brought in it causes outrage among 12 step cliques and its not worth the hassle for the counselor to deal with it. The 12 step is their bread and butter so they want to keep them happy. Ive been told alternative programs could be shared but we need to break the program down and only share parts that sort of resemble 12 step and leave out the rest, but if it peaks anyones interest - they will have heard of it, and can pursue it on their own, and then we can also let people know we offer alternatives at our facility. LOL Ive been told 12 step programs have earned their respect, and other programs have to do the same, and I should be grateful a basic flyer is even posted. Ive also been witness to said flyer having been removed as soon as they think you’ve walked out the door. Ive worked with people and heard them share experiences that are just as bad or worse.. unless you have been in the position of introducing alternative programs into 12 step environments, then I doubt anyone can imagine how strong the forces of protection are, or what lengths some people will go to in order to maintain their stronghold in this industry. Is it this way everywhere, absolutely not.. but in many places it still is. Time will change things in my opinion because you cant stop progress.

That’s my experience at least.. luckily I have not had death threats, but my husband has joked many times about getting bullet proof glass for our home.
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