Boleo

In the case of Buddhism, the phrase "Lost in translation" is particularly apropos.

Joe Nerv

These deepeties lose me, all the time. My brain shuts off as I can no longer discern who's being serious, who's insulting someone, who's saying something that's truly worthwhile, who's blabbing, or who's trying to be funny. Sarcasm gets muddled for me too. I prefer my sarcasm in a clear, direct fashion.

It is what it is.

My favorite deepity, now that I've added that word to my dictionary .

Boleo

If you want to be a Zen Master (like Yogi Berra)- You have to be unencumbered by the thought process.

Joe Nerv

I downloaded about 6 free books the last time this stuff started . Now I just have to get to reading them. I am very interested.

Boleo

I have read a lot of books about Buddhism and Zen. IMO about half of them are Western slants on the subject full of misguided translations.

The few authors that I trust on the subject are:

D. T. Suzuki
Lama Surya Das
Walpola Rahula
Shunryu Suzuki
Bhante Henepola Gunaratana

I used to trust Deepak Chopra before he turned into a Hollywood Guru.
:

samseb5351

Maybe try "Buddhism without Beliefs: A Contemporary Guide to Awakening" by Stephen Batchelor
Or even "Waking Up" by Sam Harris..

I will point out that every piece of information is filtered through some form of translation, we add to it and take away from it, we match it to our world view or dismiss it in the same way. Even our own emotional, intellectual and motivational attachment to pointing out others misunderstandings is another form of translation, perhaps its governed by an idea that information and technique is somehow Purest at its Source (maybe we can add to our well being when this idea is challenged)

In my opinion it is a "trick of the trade" in spiritualism to drag observational information we don't or even can't understand into the Obscure world of mysticism. We end up saying well it just can't be fully understood using everyday language, leaving us in the delusional space that things that can't be understood must be evidence of the supernatural or transcendent realms. When we turn a curious skeptical observation back onto the conclusions we have about our existence, maybe we can see we really are just taking comfort from our ignorance.

Boleo

If all I had to go on was Western translations of Buddhist texts, I would think it was simply a form of Solipsism. Not because I am naive or uneducated, but because that is what literal translations end up pointing to.

Fortunately I studied Solipsism before I studied Buddhism, so I knew what it looked like right off the bat and could easily see the fallacious reasoning and misconceptions.

Also, I had studied enough Hinduism, Taoism, Yoga, Tantra and Zen to recognize the traps that English translations frequently fall into. There is quite a bit of Eastern nomenclature that simply has no English equivolet or corresponding way of transposing it.

RDBplus3

What happened with me -
It was explained to me that living my life on 'Self-Will-Run-Riot' had certainly led to the depths of 'Pitiful & Incomprehensible Demoralization', and I knew it well.

To start, I ONLY needed to acknowledge that there must be some power greater than myself ... every living moment of my life was dependent on breathing in oxygen which i obviously did not create.

That and the statement - 'There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation'

And, there is a statement at the end of chapter 2 in the AA 12&12 that basically states - 'every AA meeting is proof that 'God' can and will restore us to 'sanity'

'God' is often replaced with 'Higher Power' because of the many differing religious assumptions and insistence on pre-determined concepts of what that is. My take is that if 'God' can be 'figured out' by the limited human mind, in some way it must be a limited claim.

Anyway, thru WORKING the 12 Steps, and completely setting aside all pre-conceived concepts of 'God' or a 'Higher Power', a Spiritual understanding and way of living developed, and it is my PERSONAL revelation from the 'Higher Power' that is evidenced by the fact that oxygen has been provided and my every breath of LIFE depends on it.

RDBplus3 ... Happy, Joyous, and FREE ... and I do NOT have to convince anyone of my personal concept of the Higher Power that accomplished it in me

samseb5351

I am getting a bit muddled on what you are saying here, however it certainly has tweaked my interest.

If we cannot develop a way of understanding the words or text or teaching in english, how do we get an understanding? What do we use?

Boleo

Words that can not be summed up in a single translated unit of syntax must be studied in many different contexts before the semantics of the of the original term can even begin to bare fruit.

Some terms are so esoteric in nature, that even a whole book devoted to the subject is sometimes inadequate. The word "sunyata" for example, may have no english equivalent in all of Western philosophy or theology, even at the level of a phrase or paragraph.

Both Carl Jung and Martin Heidegger pointed out that Eastern philosophy is "too big" to fit inside Western philosophy without some trimming taking place.

Zen, on the other hand, is "too broad" to fit in any language (even it's original one). Thus the phrase; "Experience isn't everything - it's the only thing".

schnappi99

Recently a lot of the evolution of my thought about my higher power is about "uncovering, discovering and discarding" ideas about what it is and isn't, and getting out of the habit of assessing and classifying in relation to it. I'm becoming a big fan of the metaphysics of Chuck C.

JeffreyAK

This is kind of where my philosophy goes, but as independent self-directed humans our own brains drive our actions, so ultimately it must come down to personal power and will. How you build up that personal power, depends on you and your beliefs. I've come to see the whole higher power thing as just another way to build personal power. Some derive personal power by resolutely denying the higher power thing, and that works for some, too. I'm not sure the end result is always the same, but at least the abstinence part can be exactly the same.

samseb5351

Yes, that appears to be how my recovery has progressed. Each time I reflect on the last 10 years of my abstinence there is a consistent theme of letting things go, under the deepest and honest mindfulness I can muster I find myself saying things like " I just don't know". When I started all this I often imagined that as time past I would become more confident of what the answer was to a happy recovered life, I have found the opposite to be true.
HOWEVER this has been the best thing about the process, the space created by living a recovered life like this is there is way less angst, anxiety and cognitive dissonance. You find that being a curious person out to discover things without having the burden that an absolute conclusion is necessary, a calm place to live your life.

I can't give any real evidence for this but in the one on one conversations I have had over the years with people with long term sobriety, this "discarding" of things is common. As a newcomer in recovery you come across people (old-timers) every now and again that you ascribe wisdom too, they look calm and you really want what they have. The story that surrounds them is often about what you think they have done and not what has actually occurred. I imagined people like that to have the answer that
somehow they have taken the processes, techniques and philosophies to the next level, and are confident they are closer to some kind of Truth. If your a newcomer and you see someone like that, take an opportunity to talk one on one with them, ask lots of questions and get to the nitty-gritty of their recovery, you maybe surprised.

Zencat

As for higher powers from outside, I say prove it. What is left is 'me' and my willingness to change for the better. I have yet to experience any effects from a HP or god. HP's make absolute no sense to me. To comment further on the HP subject is of no use.

I am and will be a non-believer for as long as I live.

soberlicious

Yes, there is a difference to me. I was taught that I must rely on a power outside myself...a power that is 'not me'...in order to quit drinking and build a happy life. If I did not maintain a connection, via prayer and meditation, and thanking that HP then I had no defense against falling into the abyss. There are conditions with an intervening power, and if those conditions are not met, then well...you know what happens. The power is me...I need not thank myself or offer myself praise...all I need to do to is not use substances. Substances block access to my power, so in not using them, the sky is the limit. I can do whatever I want to do in terms of growth. I don't need to be afraid that I haven't met the conditions, or wonder if I'm doing it right...
I am substance free. I have lovings relationships. I am helpful to others. I work hard and I play a lot too. I get through the horrible sh*t that happens in life and still manage to smile. I'm doing it right.

schnappi99

Hey Zen, you're pretty sure about stuff- I was too. I find I need to be very careful with my certainties about my HP, they so easily turn into some kind of proof that I think I need, or some attribute that I reason a HP should have. I'm kind of thinking, for me, propositions such as those are the 1st thing that gets in the way of my serenity.

My alanon program revealed to me very clearly some stuff I need to change. When the time came for my 6th/7th steps I didn't sit down and pray to have my character defects removed. Instead I gave some thought to how I might experience life without them- the very specific stuff that my 5th step showed me, and then I figured well why not just pretend the defect is gone and conduct myself accordingly. Perhaps its nothing more than psychology, or perhaps its like many speakers suggest, that I finally left room for my HP to work through me.

Beats me.. I'm not actually concerned much about it, my focus is keeping my mind right.. to keep it really close to my program and seeking awakening about what I'm doing to and for myself and others so I can choose accordingly.

But the question was power. I don't feel as if I've suddenly hooked up the jumper cables to the universe's voltage mains. But I do have a quieter, kinder mind that is easier for me & others to live with. I was never able to compel my mind to "be that way" and make it stick in the face of frustration and traffic and news etc.... so theres a lack of my own power in one sense. Maybe if we're talking about power being from me vs from somewhere else then we'd better be really specific about what the power is we're talking about.

Ken33xx

Actually I think that might be a pretty good fit for those who have a hard time believing in an external Higher Power.

The problem is anyone in AA who suggests the HP comes from within is potentially setting themselves for trouble at meetings. I believe it`s important to feel included and not an outcast.

murrill

Not my experience. I suspect that if we could take a poll we would discover a very large representation of people who believe, as do I, in the power of aligning with spirit. To me, that comes from within.

Ken33xx

Do you mean people in the general or in AA?

Ken33xx

Interesting. Is the spirit something in addition to yourself? Or do you believe the spirit and you are one? If so, would you consider yourself to be your own HP?