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Question for fellow Athesists/Agnostics

Old 02-26-2015, 05:40 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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I want to add to my previous post:

I do think there is a real, tangible power in support groups - whether it's AA, Weight Watchers, grief support, etc., etc.

I know for myself, trying to quit drinking in a world full of drinkers, it sure does help to have somewhere I can go to be with other people who have a desire to stop drinking. I personally find some of the other "programs" to make more sense than AA, but none of them have anywhere near the accessibility that AA has as far as having a physical place to go to to be around other people for support.

I still get hung up on the "god stuff," but I hope that I will one day move beyond that so that I can be of more help to others who are struggling. I think any organization that has the number of members that AA/NA has - there are going to be differences of opinions/beliefs, and maybe learning to work with those differences is part of the journey?
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Old 02-26-2015, 06:01 AM
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I said bothered by. You said struggle with.

Same same.

The question remains, if God doesn't exist, as an atheist believes, why would talk of it, give you struggles?

Take the steps and substitute God for the power supply of your choice.

Spirit of the universe, mother nature.... Whatever.

Jedi it, "use the force"..... Seems to be a good alternative for a few AA members I know too.

It's only after going through with the process that you can actually make an informed decision based on the experience you have.

Kinda like never knowing if you would enjoy bungee jumping......... It's simply a matter of strapping on and taking the plunge...... After that..... You get to decide if you enjoyed it.
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Old 02-26-2015, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by beddy3484 View Post
I try my hardest to change the words they are saying in my head to at least represent some power outside myself (just maybe not God as they see it) because I want to believe there is something out there because I fully admit I am powerless over substances.
Whether the power is outside or inside of me never mattered. Power is invisible, and open to interpretation. I always felt it was just a matter of semantics, although I'm sure theorists and those philosophically inclined could argue that to the ends of the earth . And do.

I never felt I was the most powerful or intelligent entity in the universe. Not by a long-shot. I can't even grasp the concept of an infinite universe, it's beyond my comprehension. I believe there is a benevolent force of some undefinable nature keeping all that in order. It's my belief also that that same force turns a fertilized microscopic egg into a fully functioning human being. I believe it propels my heartbeat, my breath when I sleep, heals my wounds, fires my brain, and well... yeah, you get the picture. For simplicity sake I'm fine with calling that whole thing, that power, that energy, force, whatever... god. And I've become ok with the idea of praying to it, as I know of no better way to commune with it. What I've found is that it works. So I leave it at that.

I use the word god as others do now, speak in terms of miracles, blessings, and god as though I were speaking of a bearded man in the clouds - yet that is so far from what I actually believe. I don't believe in any human like being that gives a crap about whether or not I pick up a drink. I do believe in a very powerful healing force (as described above), that man has yet to clearly define, or even prove.

Not sure if that makes sense to anyone but me (it's early in the morning here ), but it absolutely works for me, and that's all I'm concerned about.
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Old 02-26-2015, 07:05 AM
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DF, I feel your plight. It is hard to get through to folks in the program that belief in ANY such benevolent "power" is not gonna happen. I used to insert "common sense" whenever I heard HP or god but the implications that one would eventually come around gets old. I can listen to any person's drunkalog and easily sift through the god-talk and find a lot of spiritual truth (doing the right things gives right results) but when the whole group insists I must find an HP, I gotta go. The next obvious suggestion would be start an AA Agnostica, Smart or a MYWAY group. The benefits would be enormous for your spirit and you could help millions(?).
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Old 02-26-2015, 10:21 AM
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Whether the power is outside or inside of me never mattered. Power is invisible, and open to interpretation.
I agree. People who get upset when they hear words like higher power are more or less less expecting everyone else to conform to their narrow-minded viewpoint.

"All expectations are seeds for resentment".
(the original Laozi old man)
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Old 02-26-2015, 10:46 AM
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Fellow atheist here. Since you were asking your question to other atheists, I'll do my best to answer you.

The monotheistic Christian god has always been a bit too closely connected to AA meetings I've been a part of. Meetings often close with the Lord's Prayer, and many speakers credit their god for helping them, etc, etc. To me, praying and thanking a god is similar to throwing an imaginary tea party at a little plastic table with stuffed animals. Pretending something exists when it's clearly not there is just too childish for me to take seriously. To see this kind of behavior coming from grown adults makes me concerned for our species, but then again I suppose it is interesting in a scientific sense - our intense biological need to create such creatures is quite strong indeed.

That said, I did find some benefits in AA and they are well worth a look. I can't say that AA is responsible for my sobriety, but it was helpful when I was still adjusting my "sober training wheels". I'd recommend just tuning out when the talk turns to Zeus, Thor, or Yaweh and just stay focused on the positive stories of recovery. A higher power didn't make these people sober: they did it themselves. Nothing wrong with gleaning some insight from their wisdom in that regard. After you get a bit more steady on your feet, you can look for other methods and programs, or simply stick close to a website like I do here at SR. Finally, there are AAAA meetings (AA for Atheists & Agnostics) in some cities so you might want to check out google to see if there's something in your area.
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Old 02-26-2015, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Boleo View Post
I agree. People who get upset when they hear words like higher power are more or less less expecting everyone else to conform to their narrow-minded viewpoint.

"All expectations are seeds for resentment".
(the original Laozi old man)
If you are being sarcastic, that was almost funny. But if you meant what you said, are saying the OP is narrow minded, and that you are being helpful by sharing your opinion?
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Old 02-26-2015, 03:41 PM
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If you are being sarcastic, that was almost funny. But if you meant what you said, are saying the OP is narrow minded, and that you are being helpful by sharing your opinion?
Perhaps a better way of saying it would be; Both religious fanatics and hardcore atheists are equally delusional. I prefer discussing this subject with broadminded people. That's what a secular interpretation of the 12 steps is - broadminded.
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Old 02-26-2015, 04:14 PM
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I'm not sure why non-atheists feel so inclined to reply to threads that were not directed to them other than to be argumentative. The OP I'm sure is equally uncomfortable here (a forum for secularists attempting to make sense of recovery, dogma and pigeonholing prevalent in the rooms). Way to go guys. It is folks like this that helped me find my own way--like most who quit and stay quit.
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Old 02-26-2015, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by anattaboy View Post
I'm not sure why non-atheists feel so inclined to reply to threads that were not directed to them other than to be argumentative.
So what are you saying? That it is broadminded people that make you feel uncomfortable here?

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Old 02-26-2015, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by anattaboy View Post
Way to go guys. It is folks like this that helped me find my own way--like most who quit and stay quit.
I don't understand why people feel the need to say things like this. It makes me want to say things like - I know personally about 100 people (probably more) today with more than 5 years sobriety. All those people got sober with AA. I know a very small handful of people (who I don't actually even know), all on this forum, who have obtained more than 5 years sobriety doing it their own way.

If what you're doing works for you, awesome. But the blanket statements, which aren't even factual, are unnecessary. IMO of course.
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Old 02-26-2015, 07:03 PM
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When I first came here a few years ago, these secular forums felt like a "safe" place to discuss secular recovery without having people criticize your problems/concerns/beliefs.

I certainly wouldn't go into the non-secular forums to start arguing with people who believe in God.

I think that most of us come here for support and to support others. But I'm getting pretty turned off by some of the stuff allowed in here. I get enough negativity without coming here to find more.

To the OP: Congratulations on the sober time that you have, and good luck with your journey. I hope you find the right thing that works for you. :-)
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Old 02-26-2015, 07:48 PM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Boleo View Post
Perhaps a better way of saying it would be; Both religious fanatics and hardcore atheists are equally delusional. I prefer discussing this subject with broadminded people. That's what a secular interpretation of the 12 steps is - broadminded.
I am speechless. If you read the comments it was as open-minded as it gets. I was asking people with similar a mindset how they use something to their benefit that they might not totally agree with or understand, but seems to help a lot of people. You sound like the close-minded one, and honestly, you just sound desperate and weird responding to a random thread that by the sound of it wasn't directed at you in any way.
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Old 02-26-2015, 09:45 PM
  # 34 (permalink)  
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I was asking people with similar a mindset how they use something to their benefit that they might not totally agree with or understand, but seems to help a lot of people. You sound like the close-minded one, and honestly, you just sound desperate and weird responding to a random thread that by the sound of it wasn't directed at you in any way.
I don't post here because I am narrow minded. I post here because I catch hell from both religious fanatics and hardcore atheists harboring huge resentments towards people in the middle of the belief/disbelief spectrum.

This is the closest thing I have to a safe zone. And I appreciate the fact that there are more broadminded people here than anywhere else. I don't expect everyone here to share my ideas. I just expect to get some objective feedback. Not extreme pro/con religious radicalism.

If you are harboring huge resentment towards broadminded people, don't blame me. This is not a atheists only forum. Secular 12 step recovery is where people in the middle are supposed to meet.
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Old 02-27-2015, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Boleo View Post
I don't post here because I am narrow minded. I post here because I catch hell from both religious fanatics and hardcore atheists harboring huge resentments towards people in the middle of the belief/disbelief spectrum. This is the closest thing I have to a safe zone. And I appreciate the fact that there are more broadminded people here than anywhere else. I don't expect everyone here to share my ideas. I just expect to get some objective feedback. Not extreme pro/con religious radicalism. If you are harboring huge resentment towards broadminded people, don't blame me. This is not a atheists only forum. Secular 12 step recovery is where people in the middle are supposed to meet.
I got you. And all I was doing was asking a question. I actually think my question and the majority of the responses were pretty open-minded and fair. I don't think a hardcore radical atheist would even consider going to AA/NA.
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Old 02-27-2015, 03:34 AM
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I can only speak about my experiences but it was the perceived need to believe or at least be prepared to believe in a god that turned me away from AA when I first went there for help 10 years ago.
I had a Catholic upbringing and was terrified by priests as a kid. When I became an adult and discovered that it was ok not to believe in god and that terrible things wouldn't happen if I didn't pray and confess my sins a huge weight was removed from my shoulders.

20 years later, I rock up to AA for help with my drinking to be told that I had to try and believe in a god that doesn't exist for me - otherwise there'd be no hope! Despite my grave reservations I tried to keep an open mind to the existence of god and looked into and rejected, like many atheists do, 'alternative' faiths such as Buddhism in an attempt to follow the programme.

I didn't want to 'fake it till I made it' I just wanted to stop drinking!

It's only now, after having resumed drinking for a further 10 years that maturity and experience has shown me that just stopping drinking is not enough. You have to work on all other aspects of yourself, not necessarily to 'fill the gap left by not drinking' but to give yourself the tools , strength and courage to remain sober and develop.

Many folk do just that using religion or other spiritual practices.
Others grow and develop in other ways without the need for a faith.
There is not a one size fits all programme it seems which is not entirely unsurprising.

What does unite everyone here though is a passion for sobriety and through this forum over the last nearly 4 months I've found so much help and wisdom from people from all walks of life, all over the world, those new to sobriety and those with years under their belts.

Although I needed a rational, non religious method to stop drinking and stay stopped I can still learn from those using more traditional AA programmes, and I hope that as time goes by it can be reciprocated.
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Old 02-27-2015, 04:30 AM
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Hendrix, I too get something from anyone who has made it through the gauntlet regardless of their method. 'Tis hard to hear the sobriety message from the 2 that hijacked this thread because they really didn't share anything about that.
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Old 02-27-2015, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by anattaboy View Post
'Tis hard to hear the sobriety message from the 2 that hijacked this thread because they really didn't share anything about that.
Who, and what exactly are you talking about? I'm missing something here.
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Old 02-27-2015, 06:40 AM
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I really wish that I believed in God or any other form of a higher power. I'm envious of people who do. I would love to have faith in something that could provide comfort.

When I read The Big Book or 24 Hours a day I get lost and find it really hard to connect to anything that is said about faith, religion, God etc. I just don't know what that means or what it feels like.

2 days ago in 24 Hours it said that We can all agree that Alcohol is a power greater than ourselves. I do believe that.
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Old 02-27-2015, 07:42 AM
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Back to Hawk's rhetorical question, why do those who don't believe get upset by the "God talk" - for me, when I hear the LP at the end of a meeting, I find the language alienating and confusing. I do not understand it as at all pertinent to myself or my recovery.

So, there's that.
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