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Common Sense Recovery: An Atheist's Guide to Alcoholics Anonymous



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Common Sense Recovery: An Atheist's Guide to Alcoholics Anonymous

Old 09-27-2014, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
I have to ask myself why he isn't comfortable just speaking about his own beliefs, rather than speculating about the beliefs of others.
Good question.
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Old 09-27-2014, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
Of course he's human. That goes without saying. It does not, however, excuse his poor reasoning.
It doesn't?

Aren't we all capable of poor reasoning at some point along the way?

Btw, I haven't read it yet. I would hope no one is assuming that by posting a helpful link for other seculars in the program that I'm putting my huge stamp mark of approval on it
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Old 09-27-2014, 10:17 PM
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In your haste to increase the number of proud atheists into your AA subculture within a subculture, you have posted something you haven't personally read.

So for all you know, there is a chapter in there that advocates ritual slaughter of rabbits or possibly a chapter on how to drink in moderation?

Wow. Just wow

I'll pass on freethinking then.
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Old 09-27-2014, 10:21 PM
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Hawks, you must have me pegged as someone else. Considering you've got less than two hundred posts on this site, I'll give you a little bit of advice... try not to make assumptions and jump to conclusions. It's not going to serve you well, dude. Relax. Good night.
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Old 09-27-2014, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawks View Post
How does a non theist reconcile their belief in the scientific world?

Has anyone personally witnessed the emergence of life from primordial ooze?

Has Abiogenesis been scientifically proven?

What about the multiverse theory that Hawkings uses to maintain his non theism.

Can Hawkings or anyone prove that?

Or is there a faith at work in those belief systems too?

We all have to believe something I guess, ironically, to me it seems you must take some leaps of faith to maintain theism or atheism.

Same but different.
No leaps of faith are needed to maintain atheism. This is a common mistake perpetuated by religions.

Atheism is not a belief that there is no god, it is the lack of a belief. It is critical to note that it is merely an absence, always open to new information or evidence. It is non dogmatic.

Being atheist is like saying you don't believe in fairies and elves. I've never seen one, but if I did, I'd change my world view.
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Old 09-27-2014, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by SoberJennie View Post
Hawks, you must have me pegged as someone else. Considering you've got less than two hundred posts on this site, I'll give you a little bit of advice... try not to make assumptions and jump to conclusions. It's not going to serve you well, dude. Relax. Good night.
And she pulls out the "I've been around here longer than you" card.

Well played
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Old 09-27-2014, 10:50 PM
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I haven't met an atheist yet who doesn't have an opinion about God.

All the celebrity atheists rely heavily on their conception to then tell us why they don't believe in Gods

many and varied opinions of something they say does not exist.

And theists are the loopy ones.
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Old 09-28-2014, 02:59 AM
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The forum is to discuss secular 12 step recovery.
If 12 step secular recovery is not your bag that's ok - we have a healthy and thriving 12 step forum a few forums up

Rule 4 also applies here as it does everywhere else in the forums

4. No Flaming: Posting of any content with the intention of disrupting the forum or inflaming members-be it on someone's person, religious beliefs, race, national background, sexual orientation, or recovery program. This includes flaming, flame baiting, registration of multiple accounts or impersonation of another member. Do not Harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress or discomfort upon another Online Forum participant. This includes flaming on our forums or other public forums.

No posts that attack, insult, "flame", defame, or abuse members or non-members. Respect other members of the community and don’t belittle, make fun of, or insult another member or non-member. Decisions about health and recovery are highly personal, individual choices. "Flaming" and insults, however, will not be tolerated. Agree to disagree. This applies to both the forums and chat.

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Old 09-28-2014, 06:42 AM
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Thanks Dee, it's good to see you acknowledge that posting things like Jennie posted are clearly inflammatory towards many of us in AA.

I found the part of that PDF that was particularly offensive to me was the part where the author states a loss of 40 IQ points is a necessary part of grasping the spiritual side of the AA program.

In Jennies defence, she has admitted she did not read the pamphlet before posting.

There are plenty of secular types of recovery out there. Why would anyone seek to secularise AA??

Seems divisive, deliberately confrontational just plain unnecessary.

Making fun of others beliefs whether in person or by proxy, via posting such garbage is not ok.

Thanks again Dee for sticking up for us spiritual members of AA.
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Old 09-28-2014, 07:52 AM
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Hawks, this forum is for Secular 12 step Recovery.

As Dee said, you should check out the 12 step forum.
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Old 10-04-2014, 06:04 AM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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I have read most of it, and skimmed through some parts.

The most important idea I got from it was that basing your sobriety on a lie doesn't work, which I would agree with. However, I also feel like Adam isn't quite done with his inventory on this matter of the lie. Somehow he has come out of it believing that the lie is somehow the fault of AA's design or AA members. And he thinks AA needs to change, so people like him won't lie anymore. That idea is self-centered.

The fact is, if one actually reads the literature, they discover AA is extremely open in this matter of defining spiritual terms.

Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they might mean to you.
p47

The BB encourages us to ask ourselves what these terms might mean to us. Not what Webster's Dictionary says, not what your Baptist Grandma thinks, but it suggests we Honestly ask ourselves. Using our brains is not discouraged in AA! In fact, quite the opposite. We are pretty much asked to toss away the brain we came in with ( a brain conditioned by culture, our past experiences, and alcoholism) and use a different brain, one without prejudices and pre-conceived notions, one that explores these terms in depth for our true selves. That is actually a pretty tall order ... I'm not even sure most people are intellectually ready for it in the beginning.

I've known more than a few people who came in with very pre-conceived ideas about God, and they ended up abandoning those ideas, and coming to an understanding of their own. Some of them went back to the bottle. And I'm not talking about atheists or agnostics, I'm talking about the "religious." People who grew up with their parent's God, and just accepted it. They have a God of their Parents understanding or a God of their church's understanding, but not really one of their own understanding. These people struggle as much as agnostics or atheists, because the religious ideas are so deeply ingrained. My sponsor told me once that it was harder to get this type sober than the agnostic/atheist.

To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek.
p46

One of my favorite quotes in the entire book. If one can't find some kind of path for themselves within this statement, I don't really know what to tell them. For myself, I am still seeking. I don't know if the seeking part ever comes to an end for some of us.
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Old 10-04-2014, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SoberJennie View Post
Here's the link to a free pdf of a new book published by AAAgnostica I just came across today. It's about 40 pages in length. I haven't read it yet, but I've skimmed through it. It's reviewed today on the AAAgnostica blog.

Interesting paper.

Thanks.
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Old 10-04-2014, 07:18 PM
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What did your sponsor mean by "harder to get this type sober"? Is the sponsor/ee relationship based on the premise that one person is somehow responsible for the sobriety of another?
I haven't read the piece in the OP, but perhaps the author is referring to this ?
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Old 10-04-2014, 08:53 PM
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Interesting take on steps 6/7.

Consider, for example, the sixth and seventh steps of Alcoholics Anonymous.
These prescribe for us that we become willing to have god remove all of our
defects of character and humbly ask him to do so. If we work the steps with
genuine honesty, open-mindedness and a willingness to change, we will have
come to identify our negative tendencies and reached a state of willingness to
change. From here on out, if we are genuinely interested in changing, we will
be hyper-aware of these traits and their consequences in our daily life. This
newfound sensitivity to both the trait and its impact on self and society are
sufficient, when coupled with an awareness of viable alternatives, to fully
explain the process.

This is what happens when we identify problematic tendencies (steps 4 & 5),
and subsequently become willing to change (steps 6 & 7). Through this process
of honest and critical self reflection we are now more acutely aware both of
the behavioral propensities and of their negative effects upon self and society.
We have heightened our awareness and see these things at work in our lives
with greater honesty than ever before. Most of us are aware that some
practice is then required, as we strive daily to employ different behaviors when
the occasion arises to do so. In this manner we slowly but surely change our
habits of word and deed regarding the problematic behavior.
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Old 10-05-2014, 06:00 AM
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Another interesting passage:

We can ultimately enjoy lasting, whole scale changes in our personalities through seemingly small, incremental changes in behavior. Every time we experience a desire to drink and, instead, go to an AA meeting, call a friend or work with a newcomer, we weaken that demon and strengthen that angel. We do the next right thing and, at some point, we realize that all these slow incremental steps have produced a significant, ‘miraculous’ transformation. Our brain is literally being rewired, slowly but surely reprogrammed.

The AA tradition is to call this kind of change ‘spiritual’ for two reasons. First, because of tradition. This sort of personal transformation, prior to the last couple hundred years of human history at least, was generally considered the sole province of religion, the handiwork of angels and deities. We find the radical change inexplicable, so we apply the magic, one-size-fits-all explaining power of theism as a metaphysical caulk in order to satisfy the never ending human thirst for understanding.
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Old 10-05-2014, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by dwtbd View Post
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What did your sponsor mean by "harder to get this type sober"? Is the sponsor/ee relationship based on the premise that one person is somehow responsible for the sobriety of another?
I haven't read the piece in the OP, but perhaps the author is referring to this ?
It was not an exact quote, and she didn't mean it in that way. It's a good example of why I would make a crappy reporter, lol.

12 step work is part of our program, so taking another through the steps is important. It deepens our understanding of ourselves (at least that has been my experience). We don't get other people sober, per say, but we show them the tools. We lead the horse to water ...

I live in the south where religious convictions can be quite extreme. Some of the churches in my area have discouraged people from attending AA, as they believe the church and faith alone will heal them.
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Old 10-05-2014, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe Nerv View Post
...And while I did sense a wee little bit of a condescending attitude, I actually think he did a great job of keeping that at bay.

I liked the paper but it might have better without the cheap shot:

Don’t get me wrong: I love Alcoholics Anonymous. I truly believe it is the best game in town...Yet all along I’ve been plagued by the nagging sense that I had joined a mind numbing cult whose membership requires a 40 point drop in IQ.
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Old 10-05-2014, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken33xx View Post
Don’t get me wrong: I love Alcoholics Anonymous. I truly believe it is the best game in town...Yet all along I’ve been plagued by the nagging sense that I had joined a mind numbing cult whose membership requires a 40 point drop in IQ.
That little peek behind his mask, soured most of what the author said after that, for me any-ways.

Sobriety, however obtained, is indicative of a turn around in some really messed up & stupid thinking.

So, quite how you can get sober & lose 40 IQ points is beyond me.
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Old 10-05-2014, 07:29 PM
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Whew, 43 pages. Does anyone have the cliff notes?
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Old 10-05-2014, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Lulupalooza View Post
Whew, 43 pages. Does anyone have the cliff notes?
In a nut shell, the author puts modern scientific principles & understanding in place of spirituality.

He see's spirituality as 'outdated' in the face of such understanding.

He expands on, mainly, this through 40 odd pages.
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