i dont believe in the g word ... im atheist / agnostic / satantic

[Cr1msonly_R3d]

im not sure which category i belong under between those three as i tend to take things from all three and leave behind what i don't want in them so i cant really relate to just one of them.

i go to NA and i find it really hard with the higher power thing , even tho its not the g word , i still struggle to even have a sense of a higher power , i don't know if im not open enough for it or what but i struggle to believe that there's anything out there that would want the best for any one , i mean look at the world as it is at present and then tell me how there's someone watching out for us ???

at the moment im really struggling in my recovery im 76 days clean and sober and im hanging on by a thread. its like i just waiting for it to snap and then ill be right back where i actually don't want to be but i feel like i don't have a choice.

people keep telling me i need to get a higher power and im like well frig off i don't believe in that at all and im not about to change my beliefs to suit your needs , but how do i grasp the concept on NA - the 12 steps without a higher power ??? so much is based around it !!

i mean we say the serenity prayer and all and i always leave out the g word when they say it and i feel really uncomfortable even participating in the hole prayer thing altogether ... i just don't see how im gonna progress in my recovery if i cant get this issue i cant seem to get my head around figured out . my last times using were pure hell and i near killed myself and others (which im deeply ashamed about) but that's where it took me so i have no choice but to try and stay clean but i feel like its a frig-gen up hill battle that ill never get

has anyone else had this or relate to this ? i need some tips or suggestions on how to get thru this hence my posting ....

[Spica]

A member named Boleo posted the following (in italics) and I thought it was a great place to start. I love my NA group but am having one hell of a time with the whole higher power thing, too.

"I know of several atheists who have gotten great results using the 12 steps, simply by by substituting one the following for the G-word;

PATH - as in "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path."

Good Orderly Direction (aka RULES) - as in "On the other hand-and strange as this may seem to those who do not understand-once a psychic change has occurred, the very same person who seemed doomed, who had so many problems he despaired of ever solving them, suddenly finds himself easily able to control his desire for alcohol, the only effort necessary being that required to follow a few simple RULES."

WHATEVER RUNS THE UNIVERSE - as in "Whatever runs the universe, I offer myself to Thee-to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt."

I personally like the third one which I have dubbed WRtU...kinda reminds me of the "force" from Star Wars.



I find the whole benevolent God thing a little too much to handle...how does it fit into the creation of the universe and the fact that (just based on statistics alone) there are probably several other intelligent lifeforms out there somewhere that probably have little in common with us...and then throw in the whole multiverse concept...and well you get the picture...

[Zencat]

I'm an 'implicit atheist' and G*d/HP's of a mystical nature have no meaning to me. I attend AA for social support. It's helpful to be in a group of recovering people that have the same goal as me even if many of them have a differing addiction treatment plan than mine.

I think of how people come together to aid each other as a HP (Helping Power). I know other atheist that recovered in 12-Step programs, so it can be done. I just like secular methods to recover by to the exclusion of all other methods.

[simian66]

Yeah I too had massive issues with the G thing. I probably attended 10 meetings in 2004 but stopped going because it just wasn't me. It was like being told to switch sexual preference or something. It was like garlic is to a vampire. But having said that, it did have the group effect thing. I felt less in isolation. And it was kind of like a metronome that swung past every Friday. I may have lasted 2 months that time. My current two and a half year stint at not using drugs was done with the help of a free addictions counselling service in town. Can you find something like that where you are? Or a support group other than the _A model? I guess you could continue and not take the G stuff too seriously. Just see it as a social thing.

[PaperDolls]

I can relate. I'm a member of AA with 3 years of sobriet and most days I have an issue with the God thing. The higher power thing I can handle (most days). Most of my life I identified as agnostic. I hadn't given it much thought nor did I want to.

It clicked for me when, instead of thinking of God, I thought of the fact that I was not in control. I left it at that. If I'm not in control, something else must be and that something is more powerful than me. Thus, the higher power thing.

Good luck to you and congrats on your sober time!!

[WakeUp]

I know someone who uses "To Whom It May Concern" as a Higher Power. My sponsor uses the Energy of the Universe as a Higher Power.

[johnclavin]

Hi Cr1msonly_R3d,

The best way to read step 3 is "Turn your life over to whatever you believe in" with the idea being that we give up control of things.
It dosen't have to be an intelligent power. Gravity, the continous change in the events of the universe, mathematical probability, chance, collective consciousness, an inner resource within yourself, are good examples.
Despite what the big book says your brain does the information processing, but it has to be correctly connected to other humans and the non-intelligent powers in the universe (the laws of nature). This is not to be confused with what AA people call self knowlege.

The big book has some good information about human nature, but it gets way off track when trying to explain science and cosmology. I take what I want and leave the rest.

[Augie]

I've been in AA for 7 1/2 months. Not working the steps, although I did do the inventory in rehab and thought that yielded some insights, and I've been meditating twice a day. I go for the support...it feels good to share about living clean and sober again, and I often hear good things from others that have nothing to do with HPs. It was in AA that I learned about mindfulness (despite it being a 2500 year old idea), which has become the central concept in my recovery. There's a lot of wisdom I think floating about those rooms, about personal change and growth, experiencing life head on, stuff that didn't originate in the AA book but which has found a place in AA's collective unconscious. I live in an area where there are a lot of meetings, and I've found some populated with other atheists/agnostics and non-12 steppers. I've made some friends there and no one seems to care that I don't pray or talk about God or working the steps. Folks even seem interested when I talk about what I've read regarding non-12 step approaches to recovery. I've really just come to think of it as people in recovery. That said, I've been to some meetings in which the people are pretty militant about doing everything by the book, what it "really means" to be in AA. If those were my only options, I wouldn't go.

[Tosh]

It's easy; just remove the God parts and you're left with a powerful program, with real depth and weight; one that deals with the past, and provides a guide to living comfortably in the day.

And even in the secular part of this forum you'll find some strange sounding stuff like 'the beast within' and 'addictive voice' 'n' other such strange stuff which science won't be to find. That makes me smile, actually!

Even Bill W, co cult founder said atheists should just remove the God parts. The cathartic effect of writing your inventory, discussing it with another human being, making amends to those you've harmed, then practising Steps 10, 11, and 12, is truly life changing.*

And Step 3 can only be done one way; and that is to do Steps 4 to 9, and live under the guidance of 10, 11, and 12. So, Step 3 is just a firm commitment to do Steps 4 to 12; simple really (not easy though).

* Prayer and meditation can be secular; there's no 'magic man' in Buddhism; and those Buddhists pray and meditate.

[langkah]

I never got the Satan thing, it just never was real to me like it is to some believers I see in AA. People like you who can access The Dark One as your HP are lucky I guess, but there are many of us that are just left cold by all that.

As long as people like you don't go on at too great a length about what His Infernal Majesty is doing in your life today I don't have a problem with it. But out of consideration for non-believers like me don't get into specifics, ok? Just keep it general and short if you feel everyone needs to hear about your personal relationship with Ol' Scratch.

Any concept is fine, but the specifics are always boring and best kept to yourself.

[topspin]

Originally Posted by langkah

I never got the Satan thing, it just never was real to me like it is to some believers I see in AA. People like you who can access The Dark One as your HP are lucky I guess, but there are many of us that are just left cold by all that.

As long as people like you don't go on at too great a length about what His Infernal Majesty is doing in your life today I don't have a problem with it. But out of consideration for non-believers like me don't get into specifics, ok? Just keep it general and short if you feel everyone needs to hear about your personal relationship with Ol' Scratch.

Any concept is fine, but the specifics are always boring and best kept to yourself.

This is really funny !!?

Never heard the " Ol' Scratch" allusion before (or; "His Infernal Majesty")



With the Satanic concept, AVRT might be right in your wheelhouse, so to speak.

[HuskyPup]

Originally Posted by simian66

Yeah I too had massive issues with the G thing. I probably attended 10 meetings in 2004 but stopped going because it just wasn't me. It was like being told to switch sexual preference or something.

My word, this is amazing. Seldom has anyone summed up how I felt about those meetings so well, and saying those prayers, especially at some where they said this one prayer, that was not the serenity prayer, even, but I think a Catholic one. I was so freaked out they would do that, I mean what about liberal, artsy Jews, and Hindus and atheists and pagans? It seemed to make so little effort to be so inclusive, and so much to just make it a 'FOLLOW THE RULES or else' feeling, overtly and also covertly. Could not take it anymore.

But thanks for making me smile, you are an amazing wit.

[soberlicious]

How does one say "I'm atheist/agnostic/satanic"? with slashes like that as if those 3 are even remotely related?

I think there is much wisdom in the 12 steps. That wisdom does not necessarily extend to the 12 -steppers. The concepts are powerful. The people who interpret those concepts and decide to tell everyone else "how to do it" are not always the sharpest tools in the shed.

[topspin]

Soberlicious,
I thought the Agnostic worldview had two options. .....and vastly different.

Atheistic-leaning Agnostic, or Theistic-leaning Agnostic. The chapter "to the agnostic" seems to address the latter.


Now, "satanic" ....that's , well

..it would seem to imply (a sort of ) Theism.

Like my buddies at The Unitarian/Universalist Church seem to practice, many concepts are understood and accepted alot of ways. Say, like the concept: "Secular"

here.

[Augie]

Originally Posted by soberlicious

I think there is much wisdom in the 12 steps. That wisdom does not necessarily extend to the 12 -steppers. The concepts are powerful.

Yeah, funny that I never really learned the value of perfectly non-theistic stuff like acceptance, humility, compassion, service until I started hanging out in rooms where people pray.

[doublecheck]

I use my son as a higher power. He needs me sober to take care of him.

[murrill]

The 12 steps of AA were the first thing that ever helped me to make sense of my life. That said, I was never too comfortable with the "God/HP" business. Oh, I tried, fearing that unless I became a convert to gratuitous submission I would be drunk on my arse. I spoke of my HP, attributing my sobriety to "him." And that was not altogether untrue---but bear with me a minute. I sobered up in a community where there were many open-minded people, and they did not press the notion of a deity upon me.
When I credited HP with my sobriety I think that I was simply incredulous: I could not believe that I was becoming someone I liked, someone who had value. I used the language available to me at the time, and I had yet to discard my old ways of thinking. And since I could not have conceived of that myself I surmised that surely some external interventionist was responsible. I have since excused myself for that period of spiritual infancy.
With time and practice, I wandered into a spiritual state that does not include a deity or an organized religion. My "practice" is a shedding of my "stuff": The resentments and the jealousies and all those other character defects that separate me from what I call spirit. And I believe that we are one spirit, separated only by our egos and fear. When we discard those we are one. No deity, no dogma....just one.

[flman84]

I too am in NA, and I too am an atheist. I believe in science. It's what feels natural to me.
I struggled mightily with the HP thing until someone explained it very simply to me.
If I was alone in my house, no one around, and I had my Drug Of Choice, would I use? The answer was yeah, probably.
Now....If I was in that same house, with all my close friends and family there, would I use. Probably not. That is a power greater than myself. So for me, that support group is my HP.
My definition of spirituality is something I had to find on my own as well as my definitions of prayer and meditation. But in all honesty, it was a wonderful journey to find exactly what I truly believe in. To find what those terms mean to me. Yes, it was frustrating. At times I screamed at my sponsor on the phone about how F'ed up the program was. I was reminded that with any growth there is discomfort. Heck, I can't hit the gym for 5 hours and not expect to be sore. I can't delve in to my deepest emotions and not expect to feel some pain, so why would I think this is any different? It's worked for me as I've been clean for over 18 months now.
I hope, what ever way you find works for you because people die from this daily. Don't become another statistic.

much love

[neferkamichael]

I'm a Evolutionist, but once I was a Catholic, then I became an Athiest, an then a Agnostic. Hmmm, I wonder what I'll be next? I go to AA regularly and had big problems with step three. One night a young lady described the god of her understanding as the "Spirit of the Universe". This solved my issue with step 3.

[soberlicious]

Topspin, yes that was my point. Coupling Atheism and Satanism isn't logical, as an Atheist would not assign power to, nor acknowledge the existence of, any supernatural being.

Here nor there, in my opinion. Anyone can put down the drink and there are a million ways to do it.