Steps 6 and 7, how do you work it?

[digderidoo]

Hi guys, i've not been here for a while as i've come to accept a god of my own understanding and working a 12 step program that i feel comfortable with.

I'm at a crossroads though with steps 6 and 7, so want to ask those here who do not have a personable god as their higher power how you work them.

Step 6 ... Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Step 7 ... Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

How do YOU work this step without a belief in a personable God?

From my perspective, I can work step 6 by being 'entirely ready to have the AA program/my spiritual path/my Good Orderly Direction to remove my defects of character.

But what about step7? It comes across as a prayer to a personable God. How do I humbly ask Him to remove my shortcomings, when my higher power is the group, the program and a spiritual path?

Paul

[alaina02]

Someone once told me to "act as if". Wouldn't i want to "act as if" there were a higher power and do good in the world until the day i die and find out that there indeed really is a higher power and i will get to live in eternity...or die one day living a not so spiritual life and find out one does exist and i just didnt want to believe.

What do ya have to loose? =) good luck man!! i just finished those two steps myself!! my sponsor's spirituality is the 12 steps so i understand where you are comming from. She has 26yrs of sobriety and i trust her with my life

[recycle]

Good question. Step 6 is about being ready. Step 7 is about asking for change.

In step 6, I became willing to let go of my delusions, my effed-up ways of thinking and reacting. One of the realizations I came to was that in order to be willing to give those things-up, I had to be willing to be something else. Every interaction is an agreement. I have to be willing to change my part of those agreements regardless of the actions or reactions of others.

In step 7, I asked to change. To allow other ways of being, other ways of moving through the world, to arise. Not through self-will or effort, but through patient forgiveness and compassion for myself. Sorry to be all wu-wei about it, but 'not-doing' was as big a part of my spiritual awakening as 'doing'. "Humbly asking" is about changing my intention. On some level, I wanted to be the guy I was. I wanted to be the unapproachable cynical SOB that was sure the world was messed up. How do I change what I want? That is a much more sophisticated question than 'how do I change my behavior'. I can inhibit behavior (for awhile), I can even create new behaviors to take their place (for awhile), but how do I create desire? Asking to let go of old ways the beginning.

I am letting go of who I was without knowing exactly who I will become. It is scary stuff, I can see how it would be easier to make up god to make sure of a good outcome.

[johnclavin]

Step 6 for me asks the question, do I really want to give up my shortcomings? I sometimes fall into being a victim and I don't want to give it up. I enjoy staying in that victim place for awhile, but after some time I might be ready to let go of it.

Step 7 for me is to acknowledge my shortcomings and know that over time they might go away. The dynamic universe is constantly changing and I am constantly changing. By keeping focus on my issues, sharing about them at meetings, and hearing other people with the same issues, a mature growth happens within me.

[shelly446307]

Thank you. That was so helpful...

[Tosh]

The thing is, Steps 6 and 7 are just mental positions to take; for me they were about being willing to change.

And in actual fact, some 'magic man in the sky' doesn't remove our defects; in practise what happens is, by working an honest Step 10, 11, and 12, our character defects (which are all self centred based) become less troublesome.

It's only two paragraphs in the Big Book too!

[Threshold]

I "stalled" on 6. Many people were telling me to just push through, start praying for the defects to be removed that I was going to relapse because I was stopping and it was a critical time to NOT stop!

Well, a couple thoughts on that...

My first two sponsors were "let's get this done!" sorts. The first one talked me through steps 1,2,3 in an hour. The second one could only reason that I must want to relapse since I was taking two whole weeks till I got to step three. She said that whether I felt or believed it didn't matter, as long as I understood it and said the prayer then it would happen for me.

Somewhere, sometimes people cross the fine line between practice and magic. The steps will work if I work them, but will they work if I just pretend to work them hoping that will work?

In my experience, NO.

So, I started with a new sponsor...who has a very different approach, honesty is the name of his game and honesty is an all encompassing way of life, and it's not something that happens over night.

We are as honest as we can be, and live it, and then we discover we can be more honest, and live that and then, well heck, there is STILL more honesty!

So, I stalled at six because I wasn't sure I wanted the defects removed. I mean, what will replace them? What will I turn to? And I self identified with some of them, wasn't sure I was ready to have that much of me disappear.

People told me to NOT stop and think. but I've already done that route. I've already pretended I was ready, pretended to believe, pretended I had faith...

So yeah, I stalled, and they were right, it was horrible, I felt confused, hopeless, frustrated, even despondent. I realized (there's that honesty again) that I couldn't do step six until I took a look back at step three. I had been as honest as I could be when I did it, but now I am more able to be honest, and my previous step threes, weren't deep enough or real enough for me to do an honest six or seven.

I am a pantheist. My HP is the Dynamic Process that is the Universe. Looking back, I see that I had NOT given up my will or my life to that Process. I had to spend some time re examining what that means for me.

I was warned my "thinking" was going to get me into trouble...and I know that has been the case, but I also know rushing through can mess me up as well.

I did my six, hiking through the woods at night, letting the Process that is the Universe lead me along, hold me and sustain me. I realized that I don't have to know how it will feel, or what my life will be like. I just have to trust the Dynamic Process. Can I trust it? Do I trust it? yes, I can and do. I trust it with everything, all the time, I can trust it with this.

So, I begin step seven. I decide to stop picking up those defects (as identified in 4 and 5) and use some assets instead, and see how that goes. I am learning new skills with new tools.

My prayer is a reminder to myself, that all elements of sobriety are available to me, all elements of healthy relationships are available to me, etc. So when I am tempted to use something I already know will fail, I keep my eyes open, knowing a better tool is available to me.

Had I forced my way through six and seven several weeks ago, I would NOT have been being honest. I would have been practicing magic not faith. Crossing my fingers and hoping that it would work.

I do not have to understand how it works. Indeed, I never will be able to wrap my mind around the Dynamic Process that is the Universe, but I have to truly believe.

Going back and re reading step three, asking myself some probing questions, meditating, and then, finally, loosening my vice grip on "outcome" and knowing the details of outcome before I sign on the dotted line..were all key.

I wasn't ready, six weeks ago, to have anything removed from my life, and if I was, well I was going to choose the what, when and how! Today I am ready. I am ready even though I don't know the what, when and how. I trust that the Process that is the Universe has, in it's abundance, what I need to live a sane and productive life. I didn't used to believe that, so I had to BE my own sustainer, ugh

I am ready now, because I trust now, Because I made the choice (and I have to remake it often) to accept the abundance that the Universe makes available to me to live a life free of addiction.

Some people can do the steps in a few days, or even a few hours and have that spiritual awakening. I didn't benefit from that. I know many people would throw the big book at me if I suggest that my relapses, doubts and stalls were part of my recovery, but they are...if I am being honest.

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by digderidoo

But what about step7? It comes across as a prayer to a personable God. How do I humbly ask Him to remove my shortcomings, when my higher power is the group, the program and a spiritual path?

Try replacing God or Him with "Whatever runs the universe". The important thing to believe in, is the principle of making an appeal for help to something higher than yourself.

Or if you are so inclined, try praying to the Tao.

"The Tao that can be talked about is not the true Tao".
- Lao Tzu

[soberandgodless]

Steps Six and Seven are where we directly address those behaviors and attitudes that made life so difficult and unsatisfying. Why? Because that kind of living can make you very thirsty.

Letting go of old unskillful behaviors. That's what Six and Seven are about for me. It helps me to know why they are unskillful, and the answer is always some form of--it doesn't work.

It doesn't work because it isn't in alignment with reality. When my methods and my models aren't getting me the result intended, it is I who am mistaken, not the world. When the map doesn't agree with the ground, I have to change the map. This requires a degree of humility. An understanding that reality is the final arbiter, and could really give a f**k what you believe.

The God concept makes this kind of humility automatic, and I suspect that most of its usefulness to those who can accept it rests there. God is the Father, the Lord and Master, and those who use that framework understand fully that their relationship to Him and to the world He created is a subordinate one. As an atheist, I have to accomplish the same thing in more rational terms.

I am a piece of this world, and I operate under its laws. Laws--a good word to remember. The laws that govern the outcome of my actions are as firm as the law of gravity. Actions have their consequences. My wishing the consequences away won't change them. Period.

So in Six and Seven I become willing to abandon the old ideas and the habits connected to them. The Stoics taught that the only way to replace an old habit is with a new one. That has been my experience too. I begin by taking action contrary to my familiar inclinations. It was a revelation to me that this was possible. When a part of me, even a large part of me, wants to engage in behavior that I understand doesn't work, another part of me that's dedicated to the truth above all can step in. I can do what's uncomfortable and unfamiliar. And in time that new behavior becomes the comfortable and familiar.

I smile when I think of someone asking how I can do Six and Seven without God, because I think of the old Arab saying. Trust in Allah, but tie your camel. Six and Seven are all about tying your camel, in my understanding.

In the very early days of the AA fellowship, many believed that you could make a request to God to fix what's wrong with you--beyond simply the obsession to drink--and He would simply do it. Six and Seven, the absolutely critical steps to sustained recovery, the steps that address the causes and conditions that lead to wanting a drink are two short paragraphs in the Big Book! You became willing to say a little prayer, and you said it, and God fixed you. Nice, huh?

But over time, it seems to have become apparent to most AA's that this wasn't exactly working. Bill Wilson called this inability of God to fix everything about us a riddle, the answer to which perhaps lies in the mind of God alone. I'm smiling again. And by the time we get to the writing of the 12 and 12, some ten years down the road from the writing of the Big Book, Bill is now talking about a lifelong process of strenuous action and slow progress--not a prayer.

So, Six and Seven without God? The willingness to be humble can come from the God concept, or any other idea that takes into account the fact that I don't make the rules. The work that brings about actual change--that was always up to me.

[soberandgodless]

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[Db1105]

Originally Posted by johnclavin

Step 6 for me asks the question, do I really want to give up my shortcomings? I sometimes fall into being a victim and I don't want to give it up. I enjoy staying in that victim place for awhile, but after some time I might be ready to let go of it.

Step 7 for me is to acknowledge my shortcomings and know that over time they might go away. The dynamic universe is constantly changing and I am constantly changing. By keeping focus on my issues, sharing about them at meetings, and hearing other people with the same issues, a mature growth happens within me.

Though I completely agree with you I've pretty much accepted that most of my defects will never go away. Accepting the fact that they will always be there and trying to live my life in a way to minimize thier appearance helped me come to terms with this step also.

[digderidoo]

Originally Posted by dbb

Though I completely agree with you I've pretty much accepted that most of my defects will never go away. Accepting the fact that they will always be there and trying to live my life in a way to minimize thier appearance helped me come to terms with this step also.

I think that's the point recognising that those defects are always there and asking God (whatever that maybe) to remove them as and when they resurface.

Nice to see people still posting to my OP. I have since come to terms of the steps and now completed them with a God of my own understanding.

[shockozulu]

Step 6 ... Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Step 7 ... Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

6: I asked to be entirely ready to have Mr. Higher Power, aka all the atoms that make up the natural universe, ready to absolve all my defects.

7: Asked the same universe to help me become part of its nature instead of fighting it with my strong personality opinions aka defects.

[SoberAtheist]

When i was in AA i used Step 7 to frame my perspective. It coached me to accept that my defects would disappear when i was good and ready, and no sooner. I couldn't will them away. Nor would a strange being take them away for me. In this respect, my defects were much like my addiction - i moved on when i was ready to.

However, after 6 years in AA, i started to question my perspective on whether my defects were actually defects. It didn't help me to see myself as flawed - it wasn't healthy for my self-esteem. I now try to be the best person i can be and accept those supposed "defects" as a part of me. Instead of constantly trying to change myself, i accepted myself. That's when i FINALLY started to get better.

[camedown]

Just browsing through here, and I thought I could add something even though I don't take the secular approach. I heard in a share a lady refer to her defects as "very old ideas". At the time, they were good, and they served a purpose, but in our present lives, they act to hinder our recovery. Finding these old ideas and learning why they are there can help to change the behaviors they produce. As an abuse survivor, I had many bad "old ideas" that at the time served to protect me and keep me safe. As a sober adult, they just hinder my connecting and interacting with other people, these are the things I need to concentrate on un-learning. Hope that helps a bit, 6 and 7 to me are the core of the twelve steps, they are the ones that actually involve change at the center of us, and are, like most of the steps, a lifetime process.

[Zencat]

My "very old ideas" kept me from my authentic self. But once I sweep away all my indecision or doubt about who I am and what I stand for, a rigorous honest me appeared: an atheist.

There is absolute nothing wrong being an atheist/agnostic/secular person in AA, to think otherwise is closed-mindedness.

[camedown]

Very true, the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

[WalterX]

I only just recently heard that there were agnostic AA meetings, so I took an approach similar to what Boleo mentioned. "Whatever runs the universe" worked for me.

I also think Threshold's suggestion of getting a sponsor who's right for you is really important. Find somebody who's struggled with these particular steps!

[scottgriffin]

I am still trying to get through the first 6 steps.

[BoundlessState]

To quote Krishnamurti:

The crude mind CAN'T become refined on its own volition. It's like pulling yourself out of the mud by your bootstraps. YOU can't do it. But what you CAN do is get honest. Look at yourself dealing with a superior, who can do something to or for you, how you flatter and agree with him. Look at how uncaring you are when you deal with a poor person who can't do anything to or for you, how thoughtless your language is. Look at yourself frantically digging for that cigarette and relaxing when you find it and light it. And with the awareness, the change will have begun to take place.

So learning about my way of being in relationship I write them down. And that's it. With the awareness the change will take place. No idea of God or higher power needed for me. Or I could say that Awareness is God/Higher Power!