Is Zen Secular?

[Boleo]

Thanks to WakeUp, I was given a link to "Mindfulness In Plain English"
by Henepola Gunaratana

For some reason, I see a lot of parallels to recovery. What is the consensus here that Zen is secular?

I would love to generate a lot of new posts regarding this subject and want to get a feel for how well regular users of this particular forum will accept/reject them.

P.S. Does anyone here know how to insert polling buttons?

[ElvisInASkirt]

I've read a few books on Zen by Alan Watts.

I think 'Power Of Now' and 'A New Earth' by Eckhart Tolle are largely based on Zen ideas.

I think it's very helpful for finding peace and therefore reducing cravings.

[keithj]

Originally Posted by Boleo

What is the consensus here that Zen is secular?

I've always considered Zen, and other Eastern philosophies, to be be spiritual practices.

Got a call from a friend at a treatment center yesterday who is sending a guy to me for some 12 Step work. The guy has some 'Eastern' concepts of higher power, and in my experience, those concepts fit equally as well with the 12 Steps as a Christian (or an atheist) background.

[GoldenGutters]

I don't know...there is no "God" in Buddhism.

[johnclavin]

Am I missing something here?

One does not need a god to be spiritual. I think spirituality is all about the unseen connections between humans. Although in the animal world a flock of birds is a good example of spirituality.

[SoberJennie]

Boleo... I've read Tolle's books and from a secular standpoint, it still makes sense. Same with a few books on zen I've read... I'm agnostic.

Honestly, I think it all depends on how you filter things... how you choose to label or package things in your mind. Zen does not have to be any sort of theistic or "spiritual" concept if you don't want it to be... or, it can be.

Zen is similar to Existentialism, I think in concept/form (but that's just how I see it). But it does originate historically from Buddhism, it's a branch of it I think.

From what I understand, Zen is the practice of being. Unlike existentialism, which is an actual philosophy. But they have similarities that stand out to me: if existentialism is concerned with the condition of human existence, then zen could be the practice of that existence.

[Zencat]

I feel Zen is secular because it deals with a person and the inner as outer environment of such. Having no concern for the unknown, mysterious, unseen and whatnot.

"Absolute faith is placed in a man's inner being. For whatever authority there is in Zen, all comes from within."
-Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki

"Since Buddhism in general does not believe in a personal God or divine being, it does not have worship, praying, or praising of a divine being. It offers no form of redemption, forgiveness, heavenly hope, or final judgment. Buddhism is, therefore, more of a moral philosophy, an ethical way of life." -1994 Probe Ministries

With the relation to my Zen practice and addiction recovery. I am the only one that can save myself because there is nothing to believe in that can do the job for me. I can seek help yet its my responsibility to make the transformation from drugging to sobriety.

[BennyHill]

My opinion is that Zen is secular. All you do is sit. Whatever comes, comes!
It is what you make it.
(Sorry to sound like I know what I am talking about!)

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by SoberJennie

Zen is similar to Existentialism, I think in concept/form (but that's just how I see it). But it does originate historically from Buddhism, it's a branch of it I think.

Sounds like you see some parallels between Zen, Existentialism and Eckhhart Tolle yourself. I not only see the same parallels to, I also see more parallels in 12 Step Recovery and Taoism as well.

Perhaps it is because Zen is a spinoff of Chan Buddhism which in turn is a blend of Taoism and Buddhism. Tolle took his first name from Meister Eckhart who blended Christianity and Zen Buddhism.

I don't think it is a coincidence that 12 Step Recovery, Zen, Taoism and Tolle are all are paths to enlightenment. I also see that Spiritual Detachment is a common thread throughout all of them.

[Zencat]

[quote=Boleo]I also see that Spiritual Detachment is a common thread throughout all of them.[quote]

Yes I see, if spiritual used in common talk as being connected ot something along those lines to a hidden power, a guiding force maybe, matters of the soul perhaps is not of any relative importance. To go further it non-considered at all.

There is nothing outside of the self. This admittance is a start. To go further there is no self. All is one, one is all. if there is a God, I'm it. if there is no God, I am that too. To consider this is a hindrance because I am everything and not. I, the false that ego suggests I am, is an experience with the misgiving of any interpretation there of. Experience, un-judged, uncluttered of mind, unattached, un-confused with what if is, could be as is, un-knowledge as is...only serves to befuddles ones original mind...pure mind...pure recognized existence.

[Zencat]

Originally Posted by keithj

I've always considered Zen, and other Eastern philosophies, to be be spiritual practices.

Got a call from a friend at a treatment center yesterday who is sending a guy to me for some 12 Step work. The guy has some 'Eastern' concepts of higher power, and in my experience, those concepts fit equally as well with the 12 Steps as a Christian (or an atheist) background.

Oh I agree, some Buddhist practices include HP's, prayer and that stuff.

Now on to Zen Buddhism. God, HP's, the spiritual realm of unknown powers, principles, ghost, spooks, mystical whatnot's is regarded as shⓛt on a stick.

We do not buy it, eat it, worship it...yes I'm a bad Zen Buddhist. My superiors would say its a hindrance to enlightenment. Just another thing to become attached to that leads away from my true self. Even calling myself a bad Zenny is an attachment that hinders my progress.

[newby1961]

Whatever helps you spiritually in this world IMHO is beneficial toward your being and certainly toward your recovery.

I have seen many many people get stuck on is there a God is there a ? and it has caused many people to continue their addiction.

My belief is that there is a power greater than me, I do not believe I am that power, and if I was OMG would I be in a lot of trouble. My best thinking got me here, so I choose to believe there is a loving power who is guiding me in a positive path.

Whatever lets you live comfortably in ones own skin is spiritual in nature, as I spent many years trying to kill myself w/alcohol & drugs.

Peace & Blessings to all

[Zencat]

Originally Posted by newby

My belief is that there is a power greater than me, I do not believe I am that power, and if I was OMG would I be in a lot of trouble. My best thinking got me here, so I choose to believe there is a loving power who is guiding me in a positive path.

One man's meat is another man's poison. Its good to find what works. I believe I am that power. Belief in Gods/HPs made my recovery miserable. My worst behavior, with not thinking at all got me here.

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by Zencat

Now on to Zen Buddhism. God, HP's, the spiritual realm of unknown powers, principles, ghost, spooks, mystical whatnot's is regarded as shⓛt on a stick.

Sounds like something Nietzsche would say. More parallels.

[SoberJennie]

Originally Posted by Boleo

Sounds like something Nietzsche would say. More parallels.

LOL. Yes it does. I can just hear him referring to the idea of God as "s*** on a stick"... Well, not really, but... it's kind of funny to imagine anyway.

[AcceptingChange]

Zen is secular. Zen is a branch of Buddhism, concerned with the finding of peace and contentment in each moment of our existence. The general proposition of Buddhism is "You can be happy every single moment of your life. The way to be happy is to not judge each situation as 'good' or 'bad'. Instead of judging the situation, just accept the situation."

Can you accept everything that happens to you in a non-judgemental, neutral way? Our reaction to situations causes more suffering than the actual situation. It is the judging as 'good' or 'bad' that causes suffering.

Zen's proposition is "The human being named Buddha discovered how to be happy in each moment of his life after he studied his mind for many years. Finally, after 10+ years of constant study, he attained 'enlightenment'.

But, even though Buddha shared his 'enlightenment', those discoveries won't bring true contentment because the ideas are not truly understood by the listener. Instead, the ideas exist as a thought, without true, master-level understanding.

It's like hearing someone explain Einstein's relativity. You can't truly understand relativity just because you read a summary of relativity, or someone told you about it. Even though you tried a bit, and even though you know that some people understand it, you cannot understand it without a lot of difficult effort. You'll have to go study it for yourself to truly understand. And that studying will take years of work. You'll have to spend a few years becoming a master of mathematics, and then you can move on to the physics. It's a tough road.

Zen practice is the attempt to become a truly enlightened human being who is never upset about anything that happens. The theory is that a person can learn to never judge what the next moment brings, and accepts the next moment just as it comes. Zen practice is like getting a PhD in Einsteinian physics. Except instead of physics, it's a PhD in your own, personal, human emotions.

Being able to verbalize "I accept everything that comes to me" is much different than truly living and feeling the deep happiness of a life that accepts everything without any negative reaction.

Personally, I truly want to be at peace, and i do try to accept what comes to me. But i am far from being a contented, enlightened person. So, my Zen is theory only.

[MycoolFitz]

According to D. T. Suzuki (who was instrumental in bringing the context of Zen to America) when a Zen master was asked what Zen was, he replied " Your everyday thought". According to Suzuki it has nothing to do with any sectarian spirit. Further when he was asked what Zen teaches, he replied "Zen teaches nothing. Whatever teachings there are in Zen, they come out of one's own mind. We teach ourselves; Zen merely points the way."

[MycoolFitz]

P.S. There are a number of Buddhist/12 Step books out there. I think I have them all--I'm kind of compulsive. I spend a lot of time in meditation thinking am I thinking?

[Zencat]

Originally Posted by AcceptingChange

Personally, I truly want to be at peace, and i do try to accept what comes to me. But i am far from being a contented, enlightened person. So, my Zen is theory only.

I do like the theory, I do put my spin on Zen...ah but alas the beauty of secular spirituality or spirituality in general...I have the last say...LOL.

The whole department from God, spooks, ghost and invisible things that go bump in the night appeals to my world view. With Zen I can be in tune with the things that matter to me. I can be at peace with me and with those that are the 'adversarial of my treatment modality'. I continue to fight the demons of those that would belittle my chose in addiction treatment. Its the Christan in me to pervert Zen to this end...its a crazy cool thing that has more to come. Its a play thing.

[MycoolFitz]

A tenant or school of thought I really relate to is "don't know" which I can apply to almost any thing from metaphysical questioning like "Why am I here?"--don't know, to what will happen to me tomorrow--don't know. I quess because I don't know anything with certainty, including my path and desination in sobriety, how could I without painting myself into a corner or a quandry? Zen master Seung Sahn remarked "I don't teach Korean or Mahayana or Zen. I don't even teach Buddhism. I only teach 'don't know'. Fifty years here and there teaching 'don't know'. So only 'don't know'. Okay?"