If you were the kind of drunk I was...

[JerryT]

I am watching a thread devolve over in Substance Abuse. A moderator is spiking messages and threatening to shut down the thread. It is a debate over the value of 12 step programs to an original poster because of the religious content, which has caused the religiosity debate to fester.

The culmination of it all, is the "you're not an alcoholic/substance abuser" argument, sometimes expressed as "You're not as bad as I was." Along the way are the "you're scaring the newbies" arguments, and when the argument gets heated enough, the "You're on a dry drunk," challenge.

There is a predictable character arc of the argument, and every time I see it, I wonder how we, as people who use parts of AA as a tool to maintain sobriety, can offer ESH in a way that keeps those that practice AA as a religious program from reacting in anger, shows the newcomer that there are multiple paths, and is an honest reflection of our approach, which may use differently worded steps or no explicit steps at all.

The way the world is changing, and the way spiritual thought in it is changing, we have a vested interest in seeing to it that the program itself grows along spiritual lines. I really have no solutions here, just a statement that the problem can be clearly defined so that when solutions come along, we'll know them when we see them.

[johnclavin]

Originally Posted by JerryT

I wonder how we, as people who use parts of AA as a tool to maintain sobriety, can offer ESH in a way that keeps those that practice AA as a religious program from reacting in anger, shows the newcomer that there are multiple paths, and is an honest reflection of our approach, which may use differently worded steps or no explicit steps at all.

When I share at AA meetings I try to say what I believe in and not what I don't believe in. Sometimes I will say that I take a scientific approach to the program.
And then I talk about my translation of the steps, or just say what the particular step means to me.
I think you can talk like an atheist in the way that god believers don't realize what you are saying.

[LillieB]

Jerry..best thread I have seen thus far..thank you for acknowledging all the issues encompassing sobriety and 12 step programs.

[dbearw]

A "real alcoholic" speech convinced me, as a newcomer, that I wasn't a real alcoholic because I didn't think a higher power could keep me sober at the time. I latched onto that I'm not a "real" alcoholic really fast. I left the speech and bought wine. Not saying it was just the speech, I probably wasn't ready anyway, but it sure gave me a good excuse to try some more controlled drinking. I do now believe in the HP, but not so much as an invisible force that will stop me physically from drinking, but as a force that is powerful enough to change what's in my heart and how I want to live my life. But that's just me. I hate the real alcoholic attitude. The attitude, not the people.

[dbearw]

Also, I hate that we can't have discussions about doubts in the program. I go through all these debates with my sponsees, and so far, despite acknowledging them, no one has left the program yet. And if they do I doubt it'll be because I discussed their doubts with them.

[JerryT]

Originally Posted by dbearw

Also, I hate that we can't have discussions about doubts in the program. I go through all these debates with my sponsees, and so far, despite acknowledging them, no one has left the program yet. And if they do I doubt it'll be because I discussed their doubts with them.

It took me a long time to trust myself enough to believe that this is a part of my path. I was involved in an outpatient counseling program with a progressive substance abuse professional and we talked about this extensively. She helped me see that this is a big part of my recovery, because it is a part of the rigorous honesty that also keeps me from surreptitious drinking.

When I left AA I was discouraged by its refusal to change. I was enamored with a new toy called the Internet. There was no web yet, and the prevailing view in AA was it had no use in the program and was probably a danger.

When I returned, I was amazed at how the Internet had been embraced. This gives me hope that AA will change over time, and it tells me that the roles of those of us who question the status quo can be one of advocacy even though we will no doubt be attacked with "self-will run riot" and "who the hell are you to try and change AA?"

The founders anticipated this in the third and fourth traditions. AA can morph because no one power can stop it. Meetings--both online and F2F--may demand their renegades sit down and shut up, but the "one requirement for membership" means they're still AA members, and the "two drunks and a coffeepot" dictum means they'll just go down the street and share those heretical beliefs with even greater zeal.

So this is not about me trying to "change AA". The fellowship will change itself, albeit slowly, using the tools so presciently provided, and I can help that process along by being present, knowledgeable and tactful. I know I am not alone when I see others write words that are as comforting to my discomfort with the way AA is increasingly practiced as the drunkalogues of others were comforting to my alcoholic confusion in my first days in the rooms.

I know it is a worthy endeavor when I see the extreme reactions to suggestions of minor re-evaluations of traditions and conventional wisdoms. The over-the-top responses reveal that at some level the bleeding deaconry have their own discomfort with the greater gulf between AA legacy and the modern world.

Finding the proper forums to discuss these things in a calm, reasoned, rational way is our first step to a fellowship free to adapt itself to a fast growing and changing body of knowledge of substance abuse, and a population that has a whole different view of the nature of being than in the day viewing the Bible metaphorically was a heretical thought in itself.

[recycle]

Jerry – solid stuff. If you get a chance you should read The Starfish and the Spider, it examines leaderless organizations like AA, the Quakers, the Apache, etc. Leaderless movements like p2p file sharing, and hybrid decentralized organizations like Wikipedia. The theme is, if you split a spider it dies, if you split a starfish you get two starfish. Not a great book, but worth an afternoon if you have not pondered such things.

I often hear the “coffee pot and a resentment” used as some sort of derogatory comment. Most members don’t see it as the strength it is. As you pointed out, AA is uncommonly tolerant of heretics, it is also anti-fragile. AA actually thrives on change and a certain level of discord.

It is good to hear your perspective on returning to AA. As for myself I am going to complete the steps to my secular best, get some sobriety behind me, and then evaluate my ongoing involvement in AA. Like you said, finding a forum to discuss these things minus the drama is important.

[ananda]

thank you all.

AA actually acknowledges change and differences in the big book if you actually read it. Unfortunately that isn't always true within the groups. I think there is a very fine line between participating and destructing an AA group.

For the last 5 months I have attended meetings but not spoken. Funny thing is the group (where I have participated for 20 years) truly cares about me and is as baffled as I am as to why it hasn't "worked" well for me. I find them helpful and caring...just baffled. From the "take what you need and leave the rest" to the "big book thumper" all any of them want is for me to be sober. I guess I learned that this past few months as I have attended without comment.

No one in my group has any doubt I am an alkie/addict. 99% of the members think there is something wrong with HOW i work the steps or I would be sober. But they can't pinpoint the problem anymore than I can. I've come to believe that AA is about a particular way of approaching and overcoming alchoholism. I am currently going as an "outsider". I am carful not to undermine the process that works for so many, and look to utilize anything I can. I guess I'm saying show respect and get respect.

This is a new approach for me, so I'm not sure of anything right now, but thought I'd throw it out there. I rarely (no not never lol) lie about where I'm at in the steps and the program and how it's worked for me. I've just stoped trying to change AA. It is what it is and changes over time but keeps it's focus on the steps.

We'll see how it goes over the next year or so...This is a life long ilness. Lengths of sobriety don't insure safety. So taking the time to try this a bit different seems ok to me. I do believe honesty is important, along with willingness and openmindedness. If I can help someone else along the path, I will do so.

I guess i participate, if a bit sporatically, in the 12 step forum is because in some form or another, I do believe the 12 steps are key to how to get better. Not as in moralistic or being "good", but as in facing the questions we all have in life and being true to who and what we are...and being willing to explore every option available.

[Zencat]

Originally Posted by Jerry

I wonder how we, as people who use parts of AA as a tool to maintain sobriety, can offer ESH in a way that keeps those that practice AA as a religious program from reacting in anger, shows the newcomer that there are multiple paths, and is an honest reflection of our approach, which may use differently worded steps or no explicit steps at all.

I think its quite possible to work the program as written and have a secular or any other personal understanding of God. The potential problem arises when someone like myself defines that understanding of God in the meetings. That's why I quote Bill W when he said the AA group can be ones HP often in meetings. Opening the door to other understandings of a HP. Then I'll share my personal understanding of God and how that makes it possible for a secular person like myself to be able to work the steps.

Usually there's not much resistance in the group to my personal understanding of a HP. But sometimes someone will have a God understanding close or exactly the same as the Big Book authors. They will make a offhanded remark about how a group of drunks make a lousy God. Totally negating the use of ones personal God understanding I feel. They seem to believe that anything that deviates from the BB authors understanding of God is hogwash.

I can grasp that the BB authors were sharing their personal understanding of God in the book. I can also know that I do not have to have the exact or even a closely resembling HP as the authors had. I can still benefit from their example on how to use a HP in step work. I can do that without following verbatim how authors connected to their HP. Otherwise the program becomes a con game of "bait and switch" if I cant legitimately have a personal understanding of God that deviates from the BB authors or anybody else understanding for that matter.

[e4r5t6]

Hello Gang,
Some of you may remember I posted some last year. I am a convinced atheist who got sober starting Dec. 7 2008 using AA and 12 steps.
I am still sober and wanted to report how my thinking has evolved since there may be others who would see themselves in my experience.
One thing I learned is that we offer our "experience," and "facts," not opinions, so that's all I attempt to do.
As I review what happened, I see the 12 Steps as an orderly system of self analysis through which we come to understand self, take responsibility for our decisions and change our behavior.
There is no higher power for me, just me and my decisions.
I had a good sponsor who resigned because I finally concluded the Big Book, for all its wisdom, is a stealth conversion document. I just couldn't read it any more. He was and is a believer and didn't think he could help me. The sponsor and I remain good friends and talk weekly about our sobriety and other things.
I sought out and found other Atheists in AA and some what I call Triple A meetings for non believers.
All comments reported here about the behaviors and intolerance from believers and old-timers reflect my experience, but I was desperate and didn't know what else to do, so I filtered out those behaviors and pressed on, successfully.
What I later found, after about 18 months, was that I was frequently experiencing deja vu. That is, it became apparent to me that some people were still reporting the same experiences and issues. They weren't getting better or at least weren't growing.
I felt I had hit diminishing returns from my time invested.
I also concluded that the friendships and relationships I developed in meetings came because of the honesty and candor meetings encourage, but that they didn't translate into something beyond and outside meetings.
Others do create a social circle of and outside AA, and more power to them.
It didn't happen for me and I began to see that as a sober man I had a desire for socializing and activities with non alcoholics.
I felt I needed to move on, but that conflicted with the AA mantra about keep coming back.
Then I stumbled across a book called The Real 13th Step by a therapist named Tina Tessina.
It clarified my thinking and verified my feelings: That I was no longer benefiting from continuing to spend time with people whose focus was on sickness, who continued to stay in recovery with no hope of being "recovered."
I understand I am an alcoholic and can never drink and if I ever get the urge, I will head straight for the nearest meeting and do 90 in 90.
But I felt I needed to substitute healthy relationships, healthy activities and healthy people in the place AA had occupied.
I stopped going to AA meetings and started participating in other organizations and activities bearing in mind the 12th step idea of a spiritual awakening (personality change), of giving back, though not necessarily to alcoholics or anything addiction related.
My life is busy and rewarding in relation to my give back, something I learned in AA.
I have friends and activities who are not alcoholics.
I credit AA with saving, changing and improving my life.
I respect those who stay in AA and invest a lot of time in it.
I found help in the steps often in spite of many in AA and often with the help of others, so I urge all who are uncertain or bothered by the culture and belief system that seems - and in fact is - oriented toward "God" to seek out sympathetic and like minded AAs and groups, find the underlying purpose of the steps in a god-free way, and keep coming back until something clicks and you benefit from the proven wisdom and techniques of AA and its members.
It worked for me and if I need it, I'll come back, still an atheist.

###

[johnclavin]

Originally Posted by e4r5t6

It worked for me and if I need it, I'll come back, still an atheist.

I just celebrated 29 years and still go to 2 or 3 meetings a week. I have seen many people come back to the program after a few years of being away. Some have not drank, but some have.
I go to a variety of meetings around northern and southern California and each one is different. Some are more into the solution and promote growth, and some meetings are depressing people that talk about their problems. I learn something from them all.

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by ananda

No one in my group has any doubt I am an alkie/addict. 99% of the members think there is something wrong with HOW i work the steps or I would be sober. But they can't pinpoint the problem anymore than I can.

Ananda;

I have been watching and rooting for you for several months now and think I know where your problem is. Like me, you want study it 200% till you perfect it. You have sewn too many seeds and reaped too little harvest. In the words of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj: "When you are done with your homework, go live it." IMO you have not given it away enough to keep it:

"Practical experience shows that nothing will so much insure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics. It works when other activities fail. This is our twelfth suggestion: Carry this message to other alcoholics! You can help when no one else can. You can secure their confidence when others fail."