Secular sobriety questions...

[Outvoid]

Greetings to all...

Before I begin, let me say that I am not starting this thread to debate with anyone. I am genuinely curious as to how secular sobriety programs work.

In 12-step programs, one of the key elements (as I'm sure you're aware) is the concept of a "Higher Power". This does not mean a "god", though many do choose to think of a "god" as their "Higher Power".

I am a former atheist and I work with many agnostics and atheists coming into 12-step programs, especially reguarding step 2 ("Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity").

What I have always counciled people is that this does not mean they have to accept some supernatural interpretation of a "higher power". Instead, it simply means that one has to accept the idea they are not fully capable of 'fixing' their problems on their own.

If we were able to solve our own problems about our addictions, we would've already done so. Right?

When I first came into SAA, someone told me, "Unless you believe in God, you will not succeed in this program." -- To which I say: Bullsh_it. One does not have to believe in a god to achieve sobriety. Believing in a "god" can make things easier, I think, but it's not absolutely neccessary. One can start the process of stopping the addictive behaviors one has one day at a time by having a desire to do so, working with a sponsor, going to meetings, and sharing with an open heart.

However, I am interested in knowing how secular recovery programs work because I do encounter many agnostics (and a few atheists) who really struggle with the concept of a "higher power", not just in a semantic sense, but in the notion that they are not, personally, in control of their own life.

So my first question is: to those of you who are achieving sobriety in secular recovery programs, what do you use to substitute the concept of a "higher power", or if you don't use this conception at all, how do you deal with encouraging humility in a newcommer to your program?

My second question is: to those of you who have tried traditional 12-step programs, what sort of negative experiences have you had (if any)?

Thank you very much for your time.

--Outvoid--

[Overman]

outvoid,
Instead, it simply means that one has to accept the idea they are not fully capable of 'fixing' their problems on their own.

That is my understanding as well. Not necessarily 'god' or traditional conceptions of an HP...but admitting that one is powerless over the addiction and that external help is required to repair it. The real question is the nature of that "external support".


If we were able to solve our own problems about our addictions, we would've already done so. Right?

Sure, but let's not discount the fact that ppl choose to go to AA meetings, surround themselves with sober ppl, stay busy with healthy activities, eat right, sleep right, etc, etc. Very, very few people are physically coerced into becoming sober (prisoners are the exception).

IMO, the 'choice' to be sober is ultimately up to the individual. The key is acknowledging what can and cannot be changed, and what they 'choose' to do about it. But that requires external help. Hardly anyone can do it on their own - I mean, no one lives on an island, right? They need the support of friends, family, community, church, AA, secular programs, etc.


what do you use to substitute the concept of a "higher power"

Humanity as a whole. The community in which I live. My supportive family.


My second question is: to those of you who have tried traditional 12-step
programs, what sort of negative experiences have you had (if any)?

Well, you can read 'my story' under the 'stories' forum above. This forum has rules about bashing 12-step programs, so I won't get into details. Feel free to PM me.

[Outvoid]

Overman,

Thanks for your reply.

I'm glad to see that there is something that replaces the "higher power" concept and encourages humility.

For me, having humility is one of the key aspects that has helped my recovery. In my addiction, I felt that I 'knew everything' and anybody who tried to altruistically tried to counsel me I disregarded.

--Outvoid--

[Bamboozle]

I'm not sure I should post here...so if this is out of line...sorry. I saw this thread as an invite. I might be wrong.


I don't have an organized program, but it is secular. I do SR, therapy, and a lot of thinking.

I know I cannot fix my problems without help. I do not refer to these sources of help as powers greater than myself.

The notion of a “higher power” implies a hierarchy. I spent too much time beating myself down and viewing myself as a “lesser person” because of who I am. I won’t do that anymore.

In my view it also implies a supernatural being. I'm an atheist so that doesn't help me.

[SelfSeeking]

I do AA. For me, the first part of the process of finding a HP was recognizing that alcohol had become my higher power- that it was running my life, that so many of my "decisions" were in service to my addiction. Long story short I think of my HP as 'mindfulness'. I still identify as atheist. This may or may not make sense to you or anyone else but it makes sense and works for me.
Second question: I consider myself a part of traditional AA. The Lord's Prayer used to really chap my @ss... now I just remain silent and think about the sense of community we are all experiencing as it is being said. The other thing in general is oh... most of "we agnostics"
I enter this thread verrrry cautiously... taking you at your word that you are not trying to start a debate but instead asking for people to share their ES&H.

[Outvoid]

Originally Posted by Bamboozle

I don't have an organized program, but it is secular. I do SR, therapy, and a lot of thinking.

What is SR?

The notion of a “higher power” implies a hierarchy. I spent too much time beating myself down and viewing myself as a “lesser person” because of who I am. I won’t do that anymore.

That's understandable and it's something that a lot of people struggle with.

In my view it also implies a supernatural being. I'm an atheist so that doesn't help me.

Just a quick comment - it doesn't have to be a supernatural being. I know a lot of people who have the wind as their higher power or the ocean. One guy I know has gravity as his higher power. -- Not trying to prosletize here; just trying to explain (in the one post) that a "HP" can be *anything* one can recognize as a "power greater than themself". It doesn't have to be supernatural.

In any case, thanks for replying.

--Outvoid--

[Outvoid]

Originally Posted by SelfSeeking

I do AA. For me, the first part of the process of finding a HP was recognizing that alcohol had become my higher power- that it was running my life, that so many of my "decisions" were in service to my addiction.

I completely understand that! My addiction to sex and alcohol was indeed my HP for most of my life.

Long story short I think of my HP as 'mindfulness'. I still identify as atheist. This may or may not make sense to you or anyone else but it makes sense and works for me.

It makes total sense to me. I was an atheist for 10 years and was one for two years after I entered recovery. When they did the serenity prayer, I used to say, "Self, grant me the serenity to...."

Whatever works for you is what works. I dig that.

Second question: I consider myself a part of traditional AA. The Lord's Prayer used to really chap my @ss... now I just remain silent and think about the sense of community we are all experiencing as it is being said. The other thing in general is oh... most of "we agnostics"

I *completely* hear you there. I am a theist now, but not a Christian and I too find the reciting of the Lord's Prayer irritating (and I daresay, in violation of the spirit of the program). I really wish it wasn't included and I don't say it either. -- Like you, I try to keep in mind the sense of community.

I enter this thread verrrry cautiously... taking you at your word that you are not trying to start a debate but instead asking for people to share their ES&H.

Thank you for doing so. I'm not here to debate with anyone and doing so in this capacity would violate my beliefs about recovery.

I think we're all in this togather, no matter what our theological beliefs are, and we have to work togather. It's courageous people like you who are helping to foster understanding between our programs and I appreciate it.

--Outvoid--

[Zencat]

to SoberRecovery (SR) Outvoid.

Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity
Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous first edition.

I like to think the power of rational thought can bring be back from the deluded reality of my past alcohol fueled addicted behavior. Its it cogent with my particular brand of Zen that I see things as there are...to be mindful. Zen helps me approach reality with logical inquiry. I locate the cause, see where it arises within me and contemplate a remedy. So then another aspect of rationality is seeing the cause and effect of those things that would disturb me.

Originally Posted by Outvoid

If we were able to solve our own problems about our addictions, we would've already done so. Right?

I see this as: when I was in active addiction just about most if not all my solutions to life involved addictive substances. Kinda like the rudderless ship, I had no direction then that didn't involve alcohol. Now without the alcohol and drugs I needed a guiding light. The 12-Steps can provide that light and my Higher Power is the illuminated path. Rationality is not my only HP...I'm a Poly-Higher Powered kind of fellow too. The steps them self can act as a HP, the fellowship and the practice of Zen too, all those help me have a positive direction to go in.

Also I see rationality as a way to my original mind...

"For him who... knows his own mind and sees intuitively his own nature, he is a Hero, a Teacher of gods and men, a Buddha."
~ Sutra of Hui Neng

...My Buddha nature is higher than my lower nature of living in illusion. I must look through the distorted thinking that addiction trained my mind to do in order to see things as they are...not as I would like then to be.

I'll have to get back to this discussion...getting close to greeting the day in an out and about way

[Bamboozle]

Originally Posted by Outvoid

What is SR?

Sober Recovery website.

Originally Posted by Outvoid

Just a quick comment - it doesn't have to be a supernatural being. I know a lot of people who have the wind as their higher power or the ocean. One guy I know has gravity as his higher power. -- Not trying to prosletize here; just trying to explain (in the one post) that a "HP" can be *anything* one can recognize as a "power greater than themself". It doesn't have to be supernatural.

In any case, thanks for replying.

--Outvoid--

You're not the first to say that here and you won't be the last.

I personally think that gravity, wind, etc. has no bearing whatsoever on my descision to drink or not drink. It comes down to me and the work I'm willing to do...or not do.

Edited to add this: I hope people don't see me as bashing this particular way of recovery. I think that whatever works for a person to keep him/her substance free and living a good life is wonderful. There are many paths up the mountain...but all lead to the same place at the top. Well, something like that, anyway...


Edited once more to add: I know I'm in the wrong sub-forum. I'll stay away now.

[Pagekeeper]

Outvoid, your picture is kinda creepy!

Sorry to go off topic!

[Outvoid]

Originally Posted by Zencat

I see this as: when I was in active addiction just about most if not all my solutions to life involved addictive substances. Kinda like the rudderless ship, I had no direction then that didn't involve alcohol. Now without the alcohol and drugs I needed a guiding light. The 12-Steps can provide that light and my Higher Power is the illuminated path. Rationality is not my only HP...I'm a Poly-Higher Powered kind of fellow too. The steps them self can act as a HP, the fellowship and the practice of Zen too, all those help me have a positive direction to go in.

Also I see rationality as a way to my original mind...

Zencat, thank you for a truly excellent and well-considered post. I like your metaphor and the concept of Poly-Higher Power. It's especially interesting because I kinda believe in something like that myself, though I had never considered it exactly in the way you described.

Again, thank you for a excellent post. =)

--Outvoid--

[Outvoid]

Originally Posted by Pagekeeper

Outvoid, your picture is kinda creepy!
Sorry to go off topic!

LOL

--Outvoid--

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by Outvoid

...what do you use to substitute the concept of a "higher power...

"What you really are in essence is a concentration of the one Universal Life-Spirit into conscious Individuality - if you live from the recognition of this truth as your starting point, it makes you free. You cannot do this so long as you imagine that you have one center and the Infinite another."

(Thomas Troward)

[SalParadise1951]

First of all, I'll say that I identify big time with the notion that drugs and alcohol were my higher power when I was in my active addiction. In some ways I feel like this fact makes it easier for me to understand what a higher power might be. At the same time it makes me hesitant to accept the idea of abdicating myself and my will to one.

I'm probably a fairly unique case. I'm an agnostic that leans slightly towards atheism. I'm also a member of the Unitarian Universalist Church. I don't practice a 12-step program but I work in a drug and alcohol rehab that almost exclusively promotes AA and NA. To be honest, the higher power thing has been a major point of contention for me as far as the steps go. However, as of late, its causing me less stress. Since I've been working at the rehab, I've been thinking about my dilemma from some new perspectives and I've also been rethinking some of the ideas expressed in the 12-step literature. I submit them for your consideration.

For all the talk of higher powers and such, I'm not of the opinion that one needs to accept the idea of a higher power to seek recovery, even within a 12-step organization. The third tradition of both AA and NA clearly state that "the only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking/using." I take this very seriously. The long form version of AA's 3rd tradition is even more clear on this point. "Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity." So then all who suffer from alcoholism, even those who recognize no higher power, should never be refused, nor should they be asked to conform to the idea of one. One should also look to the introductory remarks to NA's 12 Traditions. "As long as the ties that bind us together are stronger than those that would tear us apart, all will be well." I think that the innate bond I share with any and all alcoholics and addicts is far stronger than any disagreement about how we seek to recover from our addictions. Furthermore, the author of the 12 steps agrees with these sentiments. In the Twelve and Twelve, Bill Wilson writes "Alcoholics Anonymous does not demand that you believe anything. All of its Twelve Steps are but suggestions." Suggestion noted, duly noted. In the rooms you'll often hear even the most ardent Big Book thumper remark "take what you need and leave the rest." They might not agree with me, but I'm of the opinion that this indeed applies to the steps, after all, they are only suggestions.

I've never been chastised for my lack of belief in a higher power although I am aware that this happens. My proposed strategy for dealing with anyone that does hassle you over this is to politely but firmly remind them that they should worry about themselves and to stop taking your inventory. I just tend to keep my thoughts on higher powers or lack thereof to myself. There's times I simply need to be around other recovering alcoholics and addicts. Do you know what its like to truly miss having a hangover? I do and the average guy or gal on the street, my pastor or even my therapist just are not going to understand what I'm feeling. One of the few places that I can reliably find someone that does is at an AA or NA meeting. I'd love to also seek them out at an Secular Organization for Sobriety meeting. The problem is that I live in the sticks and the only SOS meeting within even a few hours of me takes place while I'm at work. The cool thing about SOS is that they suggest doing just what I suggest. In lieu of SOS meetings attend other recovery groups. Take what you need and leave the rest.

Another thing, and perhaps this is trivial, is that the Big Book doesn't completely rule out recovery without a higher power. It is said therein "that probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism." It would seem that both Bill W and Dr. Bob never encountered such a human power. The fact is that they only postulated that such a discovery was improbable, not impossible. The recovery movement was in its infancy when they formulated this thought. I see them as pioneers. I don't see their ideas as the end all be all of recovery. Its pretty clear to me that quite a few people have and are recovering through purely human power. I appreciate that they left this window open even if it was only a crack.

As you might have guessed, although I don't practice a 12-step program, I do participate in them. My job even requires me to guide folks into practice of the steps. Sometimes I'd like to offer certain objections to them or to promote alternative strategies. The fact is that that's not in my job description. I chose to work at this facility and that's how they do things. I can also attest to the fact that the steps are incredibly effective for many people.

Another thing is that I feel slightly more receptive to the idea of what a higher power could mean. I'll reiterate the "slightly" and "could" parts of that statement. I've hardly undergone a spiritual conversion or anything of the like (not to knock spiritual conversions). As I also mentioned, I'm a Unitarian. As an openly non-believer I'm still in some way "moved" by my interaction with the church. The focus and commitment to my own ideas of morality, humanity and the like that the church has allowed me to foster is one of the biggest components of my recovery. Might this be a higher power? I dunno. I tend to think not. For one, the ideas have come from me or I've at least adopted the ideas of other wise humans. Now although I suppose that I can recognize the church as a power greater than myself, I feel that its my participation in the church that helps my sobriety not the "higher power" itself. I'm not serving its will at any rate. I'm carrying out my will in conjunction with a "higher power" that happens to share my will.

Another idea I kick around sometimes is "knowledge" as a higher power. If can I take the notion that "knowledge is power" as a given, then if I can increase my knowledge I move towards a higher power of sorts. Now I'm a graduate student studying philosophy and I gravitate towards some fairly intricate notions of what exactly knowledge is. You find in philosophers like Plato and Spinoza the idea of a perfect, complete knowledge of the whole. Such a knowledge would not seem to be attainable by a human being. Never the less, the philosopher or, literally, the "lover of wisdom" strives towards such comprehension despite the fact he or she won't achieve the perfection sought. One can progress a great degree, certainly far beyond the everyday comprehension of things. I can't for sure tell you that this knowledge of the whole exists. If I could point to it or articulate its exact nature, it would seem that I would already possess it. Perhaps this is an act of faith on my part or maybe its existence is plausible despite its unproven nature. Anyway, this knowledge of the whole would by nature have to possess the knowledge of how to overcome addiction as well as how to become a good person, what a just society is and other important questions. Again, if knowledge is power, this knowledge of the whole is a power greater than myself. Given that it contains knowledge on how to overcome addiction it could relieve my alcoholic/addict estate. I seek this knowledge. The Big Book tells me that a higher power could and WOULD if it were sought. I'm not so sure about the would part. I will say this. The pursuit of knowledge helps my recovery tremendously. I study philosophy voraciously. I also read a lot of classic literature and books about recovery. I also increase my knowledge through reflection and debate.

I think that another thing that I must always keep in mind is that these things that I might be able to think of as higher powers do much the same for me as that "actual" higher powers do for people that practice the steps. Again, the ties that bind me to those folks are far stronger than that which would separate us. Sorry for rambling but that's how I do. I hope I was of some help to someone. Typing this all out sure helped me.

[Alera]

Sorry for rambling but that's how I do. I hope I was of some help to someone. Typing this all out sure helped me.

And reading it has been helpful to me. Thanks for sharing your ESH!

[Overman]

@ Sal
I'm probably a fairly unique case.

Most people think they are.

[NoelleR]

"...you'll often hear even the most ardent Big Book thumper remark 'take what you need and leave the rest.'..."

Yes, but if you continue to listen to those thumpers they will tell you that the 'you may take what you need and leave the rest' line refers to what you hear from individuals in meetings NOT what you read in the BB (to most of 'them' that is sacrosanct').

(o:

[Ago]

Originally Posted by Boleo

"What you really are in essence is a concentration of the one Universal Life-Spirit into conscious Individuality - if you live from the recognition of this truth as your starting point, it makes you free. You cannot do this so long as you imagine that you have one center and the Infinite another."

(Thomas Troward)

I agree with this, I believe the infinite is secular, I believe in "The Great Reality" and for the purpose of AA I refer to that as "God" although I don't believe in "God" as most people define "God", and as I state in the following post, if you don't believe in The Great Reality, staple your eyeball a few times then get back to me, and if you don't believe in a power greater then yourself, walk down to the nearest ocean and stop the waves, or stick your tongue in an electrical outlet, then give me a call

You don't need to believe in a Christian or any other deity for the steps to work, they can be done in an entirely secular fashion, and you can do so and even leave the word God in.

As far as I am concerned the steps are a mathematical equation that when worked will bring about a personality change sufficient to recover from alcoholism, and the thing about step 3 is I just needed to learn that I wasn't God, that I wasn't the center of the universe, and that frankly, it was my thinking that was killing me.

There is so much antipathy against the word God though that it's difficult to explain to atheists and agnostics frequently, and frankly that antipathy is understandable, seeing how much evil has been perpetrated in the name of God, so I get that, but I do get frustrated when encountering atheists and agnostics as close minded as the most devout and backward Christians.

I have taken dozens upon dozens of atheists and agnostics using the 12 steps with no ill effect except they got sober and now have great lives and careers and no longer suffer from alcoholism.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-three-aa.html (How I worked Step Three in AA)

Originally Posted by NoelleR

"...you'll often hear even the most ardent Big Book thumper remark 'take what you need and leave the rest.'..."

Yes, but if you continue to listen to those thumpers they will tell you that the 'you may take what you need and leave the rest' line refers to what you hear from individuals in meetings NOT what you read in the BB (to most of 'them' that is sacrosanct').

(o:

personally I find it amusing that the BB is so very humble and frequently says to seek outside help, outside doctors, outside practitioners, outside whatever, and it doesn't know all the answers, just something that works for them but then many BB thumpers do in fact know it all and totally lack humility.

I don't mind people thumping the BB I just wish they'd read the damned thing first.

[SalParadise1951]

@ overman - in regards to me being an addict, I'm as stereotypical as they come. On the other hand, the next time I meet an agnostic who practices a religion who also is an addict that doesn't practice the steps yet works in a facility that does, I'll let you know. My point was that given my situation, I might have a unique take on recovery in general and the concept of a higher power in specific.

@ NoelleR - I tend to not continue to listen to them when they go that way. As I mentioned, Bill W in the 12 and 12 says the steps are but suggestions. So if anyone tells you that you can't take or leave the steps, they're simply wrong.

[SalParadise1951]

@ Ago - I think I disagree with a few of the things you're putting out there. I don't think I believe in the "Great Reality." I believe in reality. Calling it Great seems to imply that there is more than one reality and that the Great Reality is somehow superior to reality. I'm guessing that this isn't quite what you have in mind. Nevertheless, you're using GR as a substitute for God so I feel like your conception of reality is somewhat different then mine.

The ocean and electricity are in deed powers greater than myself. The laws of physics are another example of such powers. So are legal codes. Federal, state and local laws, despite being beyond my control, are merely by convention. They are man-made and have next to nothing to do with the natural world or anything I would associate with the concept of God. If I believed in God, I could understand how he could relieve my alcoholic condition. I cannot see how a natural or conventional law could do so.

If I were to work the steps, especially working them with the word(s) God or Higher Power, I would thereby be turning my will over (3rd Step) to his will (11th Step). So I guess my question is what is the Great Reality's will? The only such will I can think of is something along the lines of natural selection. In a funny way, I can kind of see how conducting my life along the lines of natural selection could prevent me from drinking or using. In general, a sober person is more likely to dominate a drunk person. However, if drinking and drugging are really just a symptom of a spiritual disease, living a life of natural selection isn't going to work out so well. That is that it wouldn't allow me to live what I deem to be a moral or fulfilling life. I'm positive that this isn't what you mean by living according to the will of the Great Reality.

In my opinion, if the 3rd step's ultimate lesson is humility, one hardly needs to leave the word God in there. I'm pretty sure that even in my most delusional addictive thinking I never thought of myself as God or as the center of the universe. I was really stubborn and short-sighted. I needed a dose of reality and some direction but I hardly needed a God-like concept to achieve this humility that I have today.

Even though I'm not a practitioner, I find the Agnostic 12 Steps to be very well thought out. I've been using them with my patients that struggle with the idea of a higher power. They seem to be getting a lot out of them. Most importantly, by using them, they're removing an unnecessary obstacle to their recovery. I'm not allowed to post links on here yet so if anyone is curious do a google search for "agnostic aa" Follow the first result and you'll find a link to the steps. Here's the 3rd step since its the topic at hand.

3. Made a decision to entrust our will and our lives to the care of the collective wisdom and resources of those who have searched before us.
[Original: Made a decision to turn our wills and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.]

Please don't read any arrogance or "debate for debates sake" into my post. I'm merely curious. Like you, I'm irritated by anyone that is fundamentalist about anything. Congratulations on the success you've had with your take on recovery and thank you for carrying your ESH to others that it has helped.

[Overman]

I like the way you phrased #3.

[Ago]

FWIW our views aren't ALL that different

I use "The Great Reality" because that is the dictionary definition of "God", not because it's great, sometimes reality can kiss my @ss.

Reality suffices

I surf, I surf large waves, I mean huge waves, and sometimes clean up sets come in, and they are going to take you from point A to point B regardless of what you do, I can either surf the wave or get dragged kicking and screaming, and maybe die, that wave is reality, and the events in my life are that wave, "God's will" as it were is I am going from point A to Point B, I can either do so kicking and screaming, or I can learn to surf, and quite possibly even change the outcome that way sometimes, which I can't do if I am struggling and kicking against the pr1ck as Shakespeare put it.

"God's will" is what is happening that I can't change, because...ummm...there it is, there is simply no arguing about it.

sh1t rolls downhill and if I am below it I am going to get a mouthful pretty much sums it up for me, there are "laws" there is no disputing, such as gravity, some of them happen on a fairly amorphous level, so for lack of a better word I call those "spiritual laws", the thing about using AA is it was written on a spiritual basis, what I did was go through and get the nuts and bolts out, there is no magic and fairies in what I do, although I do have to say sh1t happens that can only be described as miraculous when used properly, in order to pass on what I learned frequently the only language I know to use is "spiritual" because I know of no other way to describe it.

The steps to me are a mathematical equation, and each step has conditions and promises, such as if you do this like this you get this, my experience is they work, when I do this like this I get this, period. I don't even worry about the "prayer" and meditation, as they both have provable medical and psychological benefits, I am longer on meditation then I am on prayer though, and I don't pray to a deity, it's more like an interior dialogue similar to matthew broderick in Ladyhawke

The truth is I don't really think about it or question it any more, I came up with my concept of the G word, worked the steps, and when my insides straightened out, so did my outsides, both as a reaction to my insides straightening out but in strange inexplicable ways as well. Ways I don't even doubt any more, because I have seen it over and over and over and over.

[GotItFirstTime]

WOw, what a wonderful group of ideas and opinions. I can see great points inall. Whatever happen to the book? How can anyone read the first 165 pages of the Big Book , the original 12 step program and not grasp the idea that self-importance and self suffienceny is our very problem. Of course, the next thought is, " A God of your understanding", this is the key. AA would not dictate what God you chose but the need to chose one is not debatable either. NA decided a few years ago(5th Edition) to put an atheist story in their personal story section. I was amazed at the controversy it causes.
It did not offend me but the controversy it caused set 1000s back years in recovery.
Remember we are a group of people who are selfish and self centered. We believe our way is the right way yet it leads only to destruction. When we deviate from the BOOK we depend on our flawed ideas and opinions. NA has suggested taking out all reference to God from their book but has never done it......why? A dear friend once told me " all I have is my experience , strength and hope, everything else is just ego! " My experience is just that mentioned in the Big Book, "any life ran on self-will is hardly worth living' and any life without a God is one of self-will. IMHHO, since we are stating opinions here.

[Pagekeeper]

Originally Posted by GotItFirstTime

Whatever happen to the book? How can anyone read the first 165 pages of the Big Book , the original 12 step program and not grasp the idea that self-importance and self suffienceny is our very problem. Of course, the next thought is, " A God of your understanding", this is the key. AA would not dictate what God you chose but the need to chose one is not debatable either.

Good question.

Can you site specifically where it says one needs to choose a God in order to stay sober?

It does say: God could and would if He were sought.

If He were SOUGHT.

Not found. Not chosen. Not needed.

Sought.

And isn't that what everyone in this thread is doing in their own way?