How I worked Step Three in AA

[Ago]

Hello, My name is Andrew and I am an Alcoholic

I hope this is appropriate, and I am sorry I repeat myself a few times, I am only hoping to show how I was able to work the twelve steps as an atheist/agnostic.

I use the word "God" in this post a number of times, it's not to "convert" anyone, but to tell you I was able to work the twelve steps of AA as an Agnostic/Atheist. I HAVE to use the WORD God a few times, because there is NO other word that will work, please understand I am NOT referring to a deity, but to EVERYTHING, not an "Otherness' or a "Guiding Intelligence" but simply EVERYTHING.

It's my experience the Twelve Steps work to bring about recovery from Alcoholism, and I believe you needn't have a deity for this to work, and it's my experience that I was able to do this without changing one word in The Big Book, I just changed my own definition of a few words. I have brought maybe thirty Agnostic/Atheists men (sponsees) through the steps using what I learned.

First, I believe the twelve steps are a mathematical equation that when worked bring about a personality change sufficient to recover from alcoholism.

There is only one hang up, The word "God" in those steps. This post is how to get around that without needing a deity.

This is going to be a LONG post, if you suffer (like I do from a short attention span, look ahead to the Bolded parts for step by step instructions for what I did to work the steps in AA without a Deity.)

A thread I participated in recently in The AA forum made me feel the need for this post, as what follows literally saved my life. When I got sober I was rabidly anti-Christian, anti-religion and anti-religious.

I see Christians that think there is no "Christian Dogma" in the BB, and the attitudes of some AA's made me realize the need for this Post.

Who the hell cares about Christian dogma when it comes to getting sober. Seems to me this debate should take place in the first week of not drinking between a couple newcomers, or a newcomer and someone who's been around for a while. I understand the question, but depending on a person's viewpoint, there's really no way to satisfy someone who's bent on being anti-christian.

If I went to a doctor and found that I had cancer, was given the Big Book and told that if I read it and followed the plan as it was laid out I could arrest the cancer, do you think I'd give a damn whether it was Christian based or not. People who come up with these types of questions, IMO are looking for a way out, or looking to discredit the AA program for some reason. So, why waste time and energy? Stay away from AA, go back out and have a few more, or just carry on with life as you know it and stop trying to pick the fly poop out of the pepper.

If I would have been presented with this attitude or been told this when I was new I would be a dead man.

Literally, If I was told to get God or get out and go drink like I actually have heard in some meetings, I would be dead today. Me learning how to work the steps and get around the vast Christianity in the Book saved my life, I was, as I mentioned, rabidly anti-Christian and anti-religious when I got sober in 1992. If I hadn't figured how to remove the Christianity from the message I would never had been able to stay long enough to get sober.

Today I am ambivalent, which means I have strong feelings on both sides of the issue, or in other words, I don't care. I can read Buddhism, Taoism, Sufism, Wiccan, Old Druidic Lore, -some- Christianity, and find wisdom anywhere without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Technically, I guess closer to anything I am a Taoist, which is simply "Sh1t Happens", literally translated The "Tao Te Ching" just means The Book of the virtue of how things are. There is no deity in Taoism, basically the premise is sh1t rolls downhill, and if you have a problem with that it's your problem, and if you stand downhill from said sh1t, your gonna get a mouthful. The "Acceptance speech' in the BB is taoism at it's finest.

You could "label" me an Atheist and an Agnostic, because technically I am, but I feel I am "Gnostic" which comes from the Greek word "Gnosis' which means "knowledge" a Gnostic, or my version thereof believes I can "evolve" as it were and that any "bit" of "God" I ever will be found will be in my own heart, When I see the word "God" I use the dictionary definition "The Great Reality"

If you don't believe in Reality get a staple gun, put about fifteen staples in your body, maybe one or two in your eyeball, then get back to me. That's what I mean by "reality". "The Great Reality" to me just means everything and everything in it, so I can "see" the word "God" and not be bothered by it, I don't believe in a deity, I don't believe in an "Otherness". More on this later, sorry to use that word so early.

The First Chapter in The Tao Te Ching says, That which can be explained is not the way things are, and the way things are can't be explained.

I can build a house, paint it, furnish it, and describe it to the best of my ability, I can describe the walls, the windows, the floor etc, but what I can NEVER explain is "the space" inside the house and that is what I actually live in. All I can ever convey to you is what color the walls are and what it looks like, I can never give you the experience of being inside my house unless you do the work and come and visit me.

That is the problem in a nutshell with spirituality and the Big Book, all the words, the mention of the word God, the HE, and FATHER, and GUIDING INTELLIGENCE, is just what color the walls are "painted" by the men who "painted" in the only colors they knew, which was the language of Christianity. I will call this language baby poop green. I had to get past the fact I hated baby poop green and actually read what these men were saying while tossing the Christian language out.

OK, on to business, The Big Book, TO ME is a Christian Based Text written by Christians, for Christians, and in order for me to work those steps, I had to remove all the "Christian Dogma" and figure out how to get past the word "God" and what I viewed as all the Christian Blather and "God talk" I saw and heard in the "rooms" of Alcoholics Anonymous.

AA is a "spiritual" program, so it uses "spiritual" language, for me I had to let go of my previous concepts and definitions and make new ones. The Dictionary actually was helpful for this.

First: I was told don't worry about the word "God" until you are on your third step

This proved to be one of the most important things ever told to me in AA, it literally saved my life, by the time I was working the third step with a sponsor, I no longer had a problem with "The Word" God

As I stated earlier I believe to me the twelve steps are a mathematical equation where if you strip away the "Christian dogma*" and when you see the "integer" "God" you plug in your own "value" for a "power greater then yourself" then work steps one through twelve, arriving at "having HAD a spiritual awakening as THE result of these steps"

where spiritual awakening = personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism (our more religious members call it God consciousness) that means our "non" or "less" religious members call it a "personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism"

Each step has conditions and promises, ie; If you do this like this you get this, which to me have never failed, when I do this like this I get this, the most famous of which are the ninth step promises, "If we are painstaking about this phase of our recovery we will know a new freedom and a new happiness etc. etc."

To me these (the steps) have proven to be as unfailing as a math equation, yes, a lot of people in Calc or algebra don't end up with the same answers as me, is math or the professor to blame or is it the result of people plugging the wrong value into an integer or getting part of the process wrong which results in an incorrect answer?

There are a LOT of ways to write A + B = C, and a LOT of ways to "arrive" at "C" as "The Conclusion", C being abstinence from alcohol, AA is by no means the only way, but, in my experience I have NEVER seen it "fail" anyone who THOROUGHLY followed it's path as is suggested.

Math isn't for everyone, and neither is AA, it's just an answer that worked "for us", but the end result for both is the same, if you do this like this, you get this.

It almost doesn't matter what that "Power" is, as long as it's "not me". Women can use the actual fact of "giving birth" or creating life" as a "higher power" as far as I am concerned, and Men can use their knocker, hell, it's been leading you around for years already, might as well admit it's a power greater then yourself and put it to good use, although you may want to choose a different concept because if you are anything like me the damn thing is nothing but trouble and doesn't always act in my best interests.

If you ask a physicist to explain something in laymans terms they will have a number of 'false starts" then finally explain they use the language they use that we as laymen find incomprehensible because thats the only way to explain it.

Unfortunately or fortunately, the language of recovery in AA is spiritual, which is slippery at best, and arouses instant "brain shut down" at worst. I watch people argue about AA simply because in many cases people don't understand the concept of their OWN concept of God, they see the word God and they lose their F'ing mind because it conjures up someone ELSE'S concept of God.

To me it's simple as hell, see the stars? see everything? see all those galaxies? see birth? see love? the curve of a perfect breast? see a puppy? a kitten? see a mothers love for her child? a sunrise?

Package all that up, call it God, no deity needed, plug it into the steps, work them and you will have a personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism.

Ok, onto Nuts and Bolts.

Here is one method (the one I start with) I have used with sponsees.


I use electricity as a "power greater then yourself" concept, it starts with electricity then "evolves" to include every single thing in The Universe.

First I tell them if you don't believe in a power greater then yourself I'd like you to stick your tongue in that electrical outlet over there, get back to me when you are done to tell me how it went.

Then I use my paramedic training to tell about the heart, how it has electricity in it, how in the absence of electricity the person dies, and how there is also electrical activity in the brain, and if the electrical activity in the Brain stops they either go "brain dead" or will actually die if the damage is sever enough. Without electricity you wouldn't be alive.

Every living thing in the world has electrical activity, there is even electricity in trees and plants (very very small amounts but it's there)

I explain how it fits the greeting "Namaste" which means:

# "I respect divinity within you that is also within me." (Here, "that" refers to divinity, or that which is divine.)
# "The light within me honors the light within you." (in yoga)

and how it fits with all of the interconnectedness and spiritual theories, as in there is divine in all of us, and the "oneness theories" but all animals, trees, everything has electricity in it in some form or fashion but by using a basic principle such as electricity you can use that to build to a Power greater then yourself that is personal to you.

I also bust out with "A new Pair of Glasses" and show many passages that confused me greatly for over a decade about his description of God, and how he states he is not a christian then uses many sayings attributed to Jesus to show many things, but how spirituality can "fit" in with Christianity. (many are pretty anti-christian when they get to me, so by using we agnostics, Glasses, and the electricity analogy by the time they walk away they are open minded and realize they have been displaying the very character defects they claimed not to like in Christianity)

I talk about how it's actually the ego that is trying to kill us, that voice in our head, and we need to learn how to start listening to that voice in our hearts which takes place from working the steps.

I talk about him finding "God" in the last place we ever thought to look, inside our own heart, how we (as a species) go "looking for God" when it's inside of us all the time. I tell the story of the three fish, swimming in the Ocean, and the big fish that swims by and says "Hello boys, nice day, waters great today huh?" one fish looks at another and asks, "what is water" and the three fish spend the rest of their life swimming around the Pacific Ocean, looking for water, in which they live and breathe and have their very existence.

Anyway, yes, I start with Electricity, from there it moves to spiritual principals, I show that reliance on a deity made in a human image need not concern them, but how once they have their own concept of God, they can plug that value into anywhere the word God is written (in the big book) and have it work.

I have found these to be effective building blocks that have led many even claiming to be atheist/agnostics to reach step 12

I am an Atheist/Agnostic.

Please feel free to ask any questions, I don't mean to offend anyone, just tell my experience with getting through the twelve steps.

[Zencat]

At first I was distracted by the word "God' in the BB until I came to an understand that the authors of the BB were using their example of what a HP is to them...one of their understanding. I do now understand that my HP is vastly different from the authors of the BB. And from what I understand of a power greater than myself is a personal reality not necessarily shared by everyone...including the BB authors. They have their understanding...I have mine. As far as I know this dose not conflict with the teaching of the BB.

From my understanding...I relate to a HP and not to a specific God known as an He. Again whose understanding is relational? Mine or others in the AA program? I can only share from my relation to a higher power of my understanding. I can however draw inspiration along with independence from the testimonies that others in the program..including the BB authors...in who/how a God of their understanding has brought themselves into a spiritual realm sufficient to relieve them from bondage of self...the bondage of alcoholism.

Thanks for posting you thoughts and experience Ago. I'll have to get back to this tread latter for its close to my bedtime. Again, thank you for taking the time to wright out this very thoughtful post.

[spittake]

Firstly, I loved your post, Ago. That was a great representation of the non-theist approach I have seen most widely (successfully?) used in AA. And I've asked for a lot of people's advice on how to approach the steps with no concept of "God" as such.

Another way to look at interconnectedness much discussed in spiritual disciplines is from the evolutionary perspective. All life on Earth shares a singular ancestry. As far as I'm aware, all known matter in the universe is comprised of the same particles (dark matter isn't exactly known, I don't think). We've found clouds of alcohol floating around in deep space, for instance. Crap like that.

I've never read any Taoist works, but I came to my own place of enlightenment when I recognized that things just are. The universe, this planet, life, it all just is. That quells me like nothing else.

I have remarked in a few posts that I think atheists are free to modify the program. After reading your post, I wish to clarify this notion. As you said, the BB authors are using their concepts of God as deity as their framework for explaining the program. I believe that they did not see that framework as subjective; they meant to convey a submission to the deity of God, but it is up to you to decide what your own understanding of the attributes of that deity will be.

That said, I also think that were Bill W. alive today, he would applaud such broadening of the original framework if it meant more alcoholics will recover. (But he'd probably credit his God for helping you out, lol.) So in that sense, it is possible for atheists to work the program "unmodified" by loosening up some of the original ideas.

Thanks for welcoming questions. Would you be gracious enough to speak on how you turn your will over to existence? In the day-to-day sense. Like, how do you gain knowledge of "His" will for you and for the power to carry it out? Or, how do you not attribute that to your own will, and view it as you still having the only direct control over your life? (I view events outside of one's control as having influence.)

Shoot, I don't know how to word these questions without them possibly being interpreted as snide, so please interpret them as sincere.

[Ago]

Thanks for welcoming questions. Would you be gracious enough to speak on how you turn your will over to existence? In the day-to-day sense. Like, how do you gain knowledge of "His" will for you and for the power to carry it out? Or, how do you not attribute that to your own will, and view it as you still having the only direct control over your life? (I view events outside of one's control as having influence.)

For the purposes of this discussion, and for the program, I refer to everything that is "not me" as "God", and what I mean by "not me" I mean the little voice in my head, my Ego, like if I cut myself, what heals the cut, the little voice in my head doesn't heal that cut, it's a power greater then myself that I don't wholly understand, so it's "not me", ergo it's "God". For me humility means being "right sized" knowing where I end and "God" begins, that's easy, the little voice in my head has absolutely no power except the power I give it, so all other "power" is "God". (this is just for the sake of this discussion you understand, it all sounds very religious, but it's not, still no deity involved)

So turning my life and will over to everything but the little voice in my head is easy. Keeping it that way is hard. That little voice in my head is just not very powerful, frequently wrong, and it also happens to be where my alcoholism is seated, so I turn my will and my life over to everything that is NOT that voice in my head, which for the purposes of this discussion and AA I call "God".

an example or colloquialism about it would be "I am in charge of flinging sh1t against the wall, but I am not in charge of what sticks" ergo, I am not in charge of adhesion, so what is in "charge of adhesion", would not be the little voice in my head or "not me", so that would be "God".

I am in charge of the effort and the footwork, but not the results.

The little voice in my head talks big but the truth of the matter is it has f*ck-all to do with what actually takes place in the world. I mean it has gotten me laid a few times, but it's also gotten me tossed in the can, it's "decision making" capabilities are spotty at best (If I actually look at the results of my decisions, not the the thinking if that makes sense) but there I am, thinking about me again, an egomaniac with an inferiority complex thinking I am the piece of sh1t that the world revolves around.

That voice is literally actively trying to get me to drink, it will try every trick it knows, it will try and make me so happy I drink, or it will try to put me in so much pain that taking a drink is a good idea, the little voice in my head is not to be trusted and is actively literally trying to kill me.

So turning my will and life over to the care of anything but the little voice in my head that is actively trying to kill me suddenly makes good sense and is practical. It's also learning how to live in "the now" and not that fantasy world we call 'reality'. Anything that takes me away from that part of my mind and thinking that little voice in my head that says it knows best but on a second look is actively trying to kill me is turning my will and my life over.

Taoism, as I understand it, is pretty simple and a good summation is this:

At last, acceptance proved to be the key to my drinking problem. After I had been around A.A. for seven months, tapering off alcohol and pills, not finding the program working very well, I was finally able to say, “Okay, God. It is true that I—of all people, strange as it may seem, and even though I didn’t give my permission — really, really am an alcoholic of sorts. And it’s all right with me. Now, what am I going to do about it?” When I stopped living in the problem and began living in the answer, the problem went away. From that moment on, I have not had a single compulsion to drink.

And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing, or situation—some fact of my life — unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment. Nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in God’s world by mistake. Until I could accept my alcoholism, I could not stay sober; unless I accept life completely on life’s terms, I cannot be happy. I need to concentrate not so much on what needs to be changed in the world as on what needs to be changed in me and in my attitudes.

Shakespeare said, “All the world’s a stage, and all the men and women merely players.” He forgot to mention that I was the chief critic. I was always able to see the flaw in every person, every situation. And I was always glad to point it out, because I knew you wanted perfection, just as I did. A.A. and acceptance have taught me that there is a bit of good in the worst of us and a bit of bad in the best of us; that we are all children of God and we each have a right to be here. When I complain about me or about you, I am complaining about God’s handiwork. I am saying that I know better than God.

For years I was sure the worst thing that could happen to a nice guy like me would be that I would turn out to be an alcoholic. Today I find it’s the best thing that has ever happened to me. This proves I don’t know what’s good for me. And if I don’t know what’s good for me, then I don’t know what’s good or bad for you or for anyone. So I’m better off if I don’t give advice, don’t figure I know what’s best, and just accept life on life’s terms, as it is today—especially my own life, as it actually is. Before A.A. I judged myself by my intentions, while the world was judging me by my actions.

Because it IS a "spiritual program" with a "spiritual solution" I do find myself frequently using the word God, but I just mean everything that is "not me" or not the little voice in my head, to me the word God is an "integer" who's value is "X" if that makes sense.

That said, I also think that were Bill W. alive today, he would applaud such broadening of the original framework if it meant more alcoholics will recover.

I didn't "change" anything or even do any "broadening" of the program, I am quite literally following Bill's instructions when he says "why don't you choose your own concept of God"

[keithj]

Ago,

Thank you. This post is wonderful. It's far more evolved and eloquent than I could hope to produce. I hope that it is widely read by those seeking a solution to alcoholism.

It really brings home the truth that there is no fundamental difference between secular AA and AA.

[digderidoo]

Very interesting thread, thanks ago.

Originally Posted by ago

I can build a house, paint it, furnish it, and describe it to the best of my ability, I can describe the walls, the windows, the floor etc, but what I can NEVER explain is "the space" inside the house and that is what I actually live in. All I can ever convey to you is what color the walls are and what it looks like, I can never give you the experience of being inside my house unless you do the work and come and visit me.

That is the problem in a nutshell with spirituality and the Big Book, all the words, the mention of the word God, the HE, and FATHER, and GUIDING INTELLIGENCE, is just what color the walls are "painted" by the men who "painted" in the only colors they knew, which was the language of Christianity. I will call this language baby poop green. I had to get past the fact I hated baby poop green and actually read what these men were saying while tossing the Christian language out.

I like that illustration.

The word 'God' in the Big Book has made me leave AA when i felt as though my sobriety was good enough to. I went 3 or 4 months without AA, my words to sponsor was that if needed a spiritual program then i would go to church, he was lost for words and put the phone down on me. He has told me in the past that an atheist cannot work the AA program, that it's impossible. At the time i had issues with his concept of the program.

It was only after these few months that i realised i needed the AA and that i better get working the program and make a commitment. I have kept the same sponsor and feel as though i need this type of sponsor, someone who works the program to the letter but at the same time has differences in definitions of God as this has allowed me to find my own understanding. I feel too, that God is in our heart, perhaps i'm to a gnostic, i have read the gnostic gospels and enjoy them. This aligns with the BB concept of the Great Reality within, that is now how i work step 3. I particularly liked your concept of God as being everything, but not me. I now have many higher powers and learning to translate and define the BB language into my own definitions of spirituality.

There is no way now that i will allow the Judeo Christians steal God for themselves. Why should we lose God to those that seek to narrowly define it?

Paul

[Ago]

Originally Posted by keithj

Ago,

Thank you. This post is wonderful. It's far more evolved and eloquent than I could hope to produce. I hope that it is widely read by those seeking a solution to alcoholism.

It really brings home the truth that there is no fundamental difference between secular AA and AA.

Thank You for your kind words

There really is NO difference in my experience, once I put my OWN value on the word "God", and that's what I "hear' when people use that word it all fits and comes together, I just needed to get past my antipathy to the word itself and give it my own "value"

Continue to speak of alcoholism as an illness, a fatal malady. Talk about the conditions of body and mind which accompany it. Keep his attention focused mainly on your personal experience. Explain that many are doomed who never realize their predicament. Doctors are rightly loath to tell alcoholic patients the whole story unless it will serve some good purpose. But you may talk to him about the hopelessness of alcoholism because you offer a solution. You will soon have you friend admitting he has many, if not all, of the traits of the alcoholic. If his own doctor is willing to tell him that he is alcoholic, so much the better. Even though your protege may not have entirely admitted his condition, he has become very curious to know how you got well. Let him ask you that question, if he will. Tell him exactly what happened to you. Stress the spiritual feature freely. If the man be agnostic or atheist, make it emphatic that he does not have to agree with your conception of God. He can choose any conception he likes, provided it makes sense to him. The main thing is that he be willing to believe in a Power greater than himself and that he live by spiritual principles.

When dealing with such a person, you had better use everyday language to describe spiritual principles. There is no use arousing any prejudice he may have against certain theological terms and conceptions about which he may already be confused. Don't raise such issues, no matter what your own convictions are.

Bill was extremely clear and emphatic about everything I explained, I only reword it, I am not re-inventing the wheel here, just putting it in language I understand.

It's just the language used is so ...loaded.....no pun intended

bb 1st ed

[Ago]

Originally Posted by digderidoo

He has told me in the past that an atheist cannot work the AA program, that it's impossible. At the time i had issues with his concept of the program.

That's fine, doesn't make him wrong or you wrong, his concept doesn't work for you, that's OK, finding a sponsor who's concept did work for me was key, for me I shared and asked for help at group level.

Originally Posted by digderidoo

I particularly liked your concept of God as being everything, but not me. I now have many higher powers and learning to translate and define the BB language into my own definitions of spirituality.

Actually everything but the little voice in my head, The "Great Reality' is "found within" remember, it's only the little voice that is out to get me, my ego, which I define as "the feeling of conscious separation from", "everything" includes me, I am as much "God" as anything else is, just the voice is out to get me, the feeling of 'conscious separation from" that drinking made feel better.

To sum up all a spiritual experience is is the ability to be in the present. That's why drinking feels so good, and sex, and a good movie, they make us 'present", when I was sitting on a barstool drinking I wasn't thinking about tomorrow or yesterday, a few drinks and I was living in the moment. That's all we are trying to learn how to do is to be present in the present. Hell, they even call liquor "spirits'

Originally Posted by digderidoo

There is no way now that i will allow the Judeo Christians steal God for themselves. Why should we lose God to those that seek to narrowly define it

I had to learn they are just as entitled to 'their God" as I am to 'mine"

I can actually now discuss spiritual principals in AA with anyone and find out we are actually all on the same page, The Buddha once said 'My teachings are like a raft to cross a stream, once you have crossed the stream there is no reason to carry the raft on your head" or something along those lines.

Basically I just have to understand they have a different raft but we are crossing the same stream, but for me I had to let go of MY intolerance for THEIR raft because the only reason I was intolerant of THEIR raft is because I thought they were intolerant of mine, I was displaying the same character defects I claimed to despise in Judeo-Christianity, which was ignorance, bigotry and narrow-mindedness.

My "raft" is my business and their raft is theirs, spending my time being p1ssed about their raft is a waste of MY time, and learning to stop carrying my raft on MY head was the important thing.

Buddha also said people with strong opinions just run around and bother other people, I don't want to be one of those people any more, just as I don't care about "your raft', my raft is equally unimportant to you.

Once I got past my own intolerance I learned we are all trying to cross the same stream, and that my own intolerance of others was doing nothing but holding me back and a waste of my time.

More math.

To the precise extent that we permit resentment do we squander the hours that might have been worthwhile.

jmho

[FightingIrish]

Great stuff. This is about where I ended up with Step Three (and heck, the whole program) as well.

[Ago]

After some years my math "equation" looks more like this

(Everything + Everything that is + Everything that ever was + Everything that ever will be) - ( The little voice in my head that tells me what to do and lies to me all the time) = X

For the purposes of AA

God = X

Plug the value of X into whenever I see the word God in the Big Book or on the wall or whenever I hear the word in a meeting and I'm golden, if *you need a "God" with a willy, or a beard, or a wrathful God or whatever floats your boat, more power to you, I don't need to make my value of X anthropomorphic personally, nor am I threatened by anyone's use of the word any more quite frankly, I just plug my own value in it when I hear or read it.

It's as simple as "Sh1t Happens" and if you are downhill from it you get a mouthful and if you sit in it you get cranky, because it's almost always your own, and I notice after I had been sober for awhile and started feeling better about myself I didn't have to take anyone else's, nor for the most part did people want to give me nearly as much quite frankly for some strange reason.

*you = people in meetings

[dgillz]

Great thread. I don't know how I missed it earlier.

[OtherHalf7]

My SO can't get to this step cause he has faith in, well, nothing. When he od'd, he asked me to pray. (I am a Judeo-Christian, AND a BCBA therapist, a rarity, lol). He also has requested to have my spiritual friends, most Christians and Jews, to send good karma his way whenever he has a battle to face. If I tell him I will pray, I get "you sound like my mother!" A couple of weeks ago, he asked why I am so freaking positive all the time. I told him cause I have faith, and we all have to believe in SOMETHING, or we end up feeling dead inside, like he does.

Since his relapse, it's been really hard to stay positive...but, I just wanted all of you to know, even if you don't believe like I do, that there are some folks who pray for you daily, and want you to be the best person you can be.

[shockozulu]

When my agnostic and atheist friends need help, I let them know I will send them good thoughts. Although religious, there is no reason to trounce on their beliefs by telling them I'm praying for them. If they don't believe in a god, they may have a valid reason and actually be hurt if I pray for them.

For example, a boy I grew up with was molested by a religious member and telling him that I'm praying to a god brings back many negative thoughts. Another friend is homosexual and was told by his pastor he will go to hell when he was in his teens. I'm not about to drag up those memories by reminding him of my religious beliefs when I can simply tell him I'm sending good thoughts.

Praticing a little tolerance won't hurt any of us.

[OtherHalf7]

Good point. I have found that people in foxhole situations tend to ask for help, be it from God, Jesus, Buddha, or some other higher power. I would never impose my religious beliefs on anyone, but I have yet to meet anyone who recovered and stayed sober without admitting faith in something that is bigger than ourselves.

Since my SO relapsed, he is so down and doesn't believe in ANYTHING, including himself. He quit the steps, all the meetings, and as soon as he did, he hit the bar and never looked back. I wish he could find some sort of fellowship he feels comfortable in, not alienated, like he did before the relapse.

I like the idea of saying "sending good thoughts"...I will definitely use that wording.

Thank you!

[Zencat]

Originally Posted by OtherHalf7

I told him cause I have faith, and we all have to believe in SOMETHING, or we end up feeling dead inside, like he does.

I don't have any faith (as from a Humanist perspective) yet I can have a hope so powerful that it has helped me endure a great adversity. Hope inspires me to develop my inner strengths and helps me expand my self-worth. As I have build my hope from a positive perspective based on my experiences in addiction treatment, I grow more capable to tackle greater challenges I may face in recovery. Hope keeps me feeling very alive on the inside.

[OtherHalf7]

When all else fails, hope survives.

[Overman]

Ago:
Unfortunately or fortunately, the language of recovery in AA is spiritual, which is slippery at best, and arouses instant "brain shut down" at worst. I watch people argue about AA simply because in many cases people don't understand the concept of their OWN concept of God, they see the word God and they lose their F'ing mind because it conjures up someone ELSE'S concept of God.

Great post, must've missed it long AGO. lol

I couldn't agree more. That was my experience as well. Confusing symbol for meaning. Anytime I hear or read 'god' or 'Him' I have to immediately pause and substitute it w/ my own understanding.

I think most non-theistic and atheistic/agnostic folks really struggle with the third step. It is the most controversial...and aversive, IMO.

[NoelleR]

"...I think most non-theistic and atheistic/agnostic folks really struggle with the third step. It is the most controversial...and aversive, IMO..."

I worked the steps as an atheist, and I actually found this step to be one of the easier ones (along with step-2). I find most folks seem to want to make the steps waaaay more complicated than they really are.

.....after all, step-2 does NOT say that I have to define my HP, only that I come to believe that a power greater than myself (especially myself when in my addiction/alcoholism) could restore me to sanity. ---- OK, sure.

.....and step-3 does NOT say that I need to turn my will and my life over to god.....of anyone's understanding; it says that I make a decision to do so. Sooooo, OK, I'll do that (that's my decision).....and I'm off to step-4.

I may laugh about it; may even joke about it, but I'm a firm believer that many folks may make these two steps more difficult than they are because they may be a wee bit put off by the 'infamous' step-4 (eh.......?).

Ah well, just my thoughts on my 'easier/softer' way.....a way that's worked for me for years........... (o:


NoelleR

[Ago]

Originally Posted by NoelleR

"...I think most non-theistic and atheistic/agnostic folks really struggle with the third step. It is the most controversial...and aversive, IMO..."

I worked the steps as an atheist, and I actually found this step to be one of the easier ones (along with step-2). I find most folks seem to want to make the steps waaaay more complicated than they really are.

.....after all, step-2 does NOT say that I have to define my HP, only that I come to believe that a power greater than myself (especially myself when in my addiction/alcoholism) could restore me to sanity. ---- OK, sure.

.....and step-3 does NOT say that I need to turn my will and my life over to god.....of anyone's understanding; it says that I make a decision to do so. Sooooo, OK, I'll do that (that's my decision).....and I'm off to step-4.

I may laugh about it; may even joke about it, but I'm a firm believer that many folks may make these two steps more difficult than they are because they may be a wee bit put off by the 'infamous' step-4 (eh.......?).

Ah well, just my thoughts on my 'easier/softer' way.....a way that's worked for me for years........... (o:


NoelleR

Abso-frickin-lutely

That little voice in your head is trying to murder you

DON'T LISTEN TO IT

it's really not that complicated, but we sure make it complicated

I can get someone through steps 1-3 in a few hours tops if they are truly open minded, and if you pull an all nighter step 4 is done

the funny thing is I WORK THE STEPS BECAUSE IT MAKES ME FEEL BETTER

all these folks who haven't worked the steps talk about all the reasons why they can't do so or how hard it is blah blah blah

Like Jim says I am uninterested in hearing your opinion about something you have no experience with, you know?

Thanks Noelle

[OtherHalf7]

I've tried to tell my SO that he doesn't have to make it all so complicated...he looks back and analyzes everything in the past, "I shouldn't have done (fill-in-the-blank) when I was (18, 25, 30) and my take is we ALL make mistakes, look at them, try to make amends if you can, and move on. He did so well in AA, and then when he got to step 3, he flatlined. He told me once he DOES believe in something, he just doesn't know what. However, when life got too hard, he ran back to the bottle and the pills...as a behaviorist, I believe we have to learn healthy coping skills, spirituality aside. My mother was a heroin addict, and I could have easily gone down that path, but I think, because I was so dead set against her lifestyle, I coped by overachieving, throwing myself into school, work, sports and so on.

One thing I've learned from watching my SO struggle is to sit back and NOT beat myself up for sticking my foot in my mouth, missing a deadline, well, for not being perfect. No one ever said I had to be, nor any of you

I feel the "good thoughts" you guys are obviously sending our way, cause I'm so much more at peace now...and...he is ready to try again, not with me (we are in friend mode now) but at sobriety. I am so proud.

[Found]

to be friends, and share to some extent around a sobriety journey, you call not being with ... ?

[Found]

Ago, please may I offer a slight nuance to an equation that has been mentioned, I don't know whether it may help anyone that is in a similar position to that OH7 describes as her SO's?

At junior school (bottom class) I had the eternal and immense pleasure of using Cuisenaire rods, a little white cube for one, a (possibly red) rod twice the length of the cube for two, three was three times the length of one, and so to ten (which could have been orange). Hence my conception of mathematical concepts will always be not only visual but tactile (I can feel the edges of the cubes and rods in the pads of my fingers this moment - a pleasant flashback indeed).

Then a word often used is 'higher' but if one can understand the idea 'greater' in its place, it may be clearer ('Great Reality' mentioned above). After all what is great (big) tends to be tall - high - unless it is flat (as a mnemonic we could tell ourselves we are 'going "flat out" ' perhaps )

So we are tactilely feeling the reality of 'more than' - 'greater than' - and if someone like OH7's SO is described thinks another power is smaller than him - or her - self (as I myself did often) we can add the little white cube thus:

1 + X = Great Reality

(oneself plus X = Great Reality)

The 'oneself' diluting - or rather enriching - the overall effect of Reality to a degree one will never know in this 'world'

I always hate it when people have spoken disrespectfully about recovering alcoholics' ideas or - even worse - said that their sponsors had done so.

I automatically find myself figuring out most questions mathematically - though sad to say I gave up the lessons at a rather early age ...

Why did Reality put the raft there? because 'It' wanted you this side of the stream as well ... And there will be another raft at the next one ... recognisable to you as a raft, i.e your style of raft ...

So 'It' can serve us - provide for us - better than our own possessiveness, I like Buddha's image of top heavy people toppling about everywhere

hth ...

[Found]

[QUOTE=Zencat;2313942]... from what I understand of a power greater than myself is a personal reality not necessarily shared by everyone...including the BB authors. They have their understanding...I have mine. As far as I know this dose not conflict with the teaching of the BB.

From my understanding...I relate to a HP and not to a specific God known as an He. Again whose understanding is relational? Mine or others in the AA program? I can only share from my relation to a higher power of my understanding. I can however draw inspiration along with independence from the testimonies that others in the program..including the BB authors...in who/how a God of their understanding has brought themselves into a spiritual realm sufficient to relieve them from bondage of self...the bondage of alcoholism. ... UNQUOTE]

"inspiration along with independence" is surely what it has always been about all along

Relational understanding - let's value 'understanding' a most precious faculty - is very nearly the opposite to relativism which is out to reduce things that we have no need to reduce.

Permit me to offer the thought that you have translated rather than removed the Christian dogma - fortunately we can do this every time we grit our teeth because we were in the 'wrong room' of AA or that religious person was speaking again ...

And thank Greatness the dictionary is on our side !!!

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by Ago

Technically, I guess closer to anything I am a Taoist...

The First Chapter in The Tao Te Ching says, That which can be explained is not the way things are, and the way things are can't be explained.

I to once thought AA was pure Christianity. Then saw some Hindu and Buddhist concepts that did not fit the model. If I had to pick one and only one model to describe AA's recovery it would be Taoism:

"The Tao that can be talked about is not the true “Tao”. Tao cannot be represented as a particular entity, thing or image. The Tao can be transmitted but it cannot be received. Tao is not directly translatable to “God”. Any word which we can define is not “the” Tao. The concept of a personified deity is foreign to a Taoist, as is the concept of the creation of the universe. Time is cyclical, not linear as in Western thinking. Tao is unknowable in “essence” but observable in “manifestations”. The Tao belongs neither to knowing or not knowing. It is paradoxically “nothing”, yet it is “in everything”. It is the “NoThing that surrounds everything and gives “Things” form."

[Overman]

Noelle,

I found the 4th step to be liberating and, in a sense, enjoyable.

The first step took me 10+ years to complete. The following two I spent waaay too much time thinking about. Especially the third, which is why I liked Ago's post.

We all have our own experiences with the steps.