Secular and sobriety? Long term?

[vegibean]

I'm sure you all have discussed this to death over here but I am asking not only for myself but also my sponsee. I do not believe in "God", nor does she.

I have heard the statement made many times "if you don't believe in a God or a higher power, you're never going to stay sober." I think that's a bunch of hooey. I've reassured my sponsee the same.

So for all of you non-believers, how much time do you have? I have almost two years now, WOO HOO!!!!!!!

BTW, I don't pray, I meditate and have heart to heart talks with myself. I believe that as long as I'm honest with myself, I know the answers within myself.

Any input? Thanks in advance.

[stone]

I know people in AA with long term sobriety who say their HP is AA itself, the guy with the longest is about 35 years sober.

[digderidoo]

Originally Posted by vegibean

I know the answers within myself.

I now view that something that's within myself as my higher power. I have 14 months.

Paul

[totfit]

Most people that get sober do it without AA. Though AA is the largest sobriety group by far it is statistically no more successful than anything else. God is most certainly not anymore a requirement for getting sober, that God is responsible for getting drunk.

[Pagekeeper]

I've heard the same thing. One night a group of us went out for dinner after the meeting. During the conversation, an "old timer," who is also heavily involved in the church and ministry, said to me, "If you don't find a higher power, you will get drunk again."

I thought about it for a moment and then I said, "Well if that's true, why do I see people who believe picking up white chips?"

If sobriety demands belief, and belief itself is what keeps one sober, then why do believers continue to pick up white chips?

Belief is not enough. I don't think belief itself has anything to do with sobriety. I say that because I watch people profess their faith in the rooms and a week later they get drunk. A friend of mine has done this. He was saved, born again, and he has a strong faith in his God. There's not a doubt in my mind that he "believes." But faith alone can't keep him sober.

My very small opinion, and I may be wrong: it is not belief, but authentically enlarging one's spiritual life which keeps us sober in AA. One improves their conscious contact by practicing steps, prayer and meditation, searching for a spiritual way of life, and any other activity which inspires one to do better, to change, to see the truth about themselves.

One can have a strong belief and strong faith, but it makes no difference if they do not authentically enlarge their spiritual life. What do I mean by authentically? Well, I used to feel real sorry for myself in AA because it seemed everyone believed in the same HP except for me. Yeah, I know, cry me a river! But having spoken to dozens of others about this issue, I have realized that "believers" have their own struggle--they can't seem to let go of their very narrow conceptions of God, and as a result, they have trouble growing spiritually.

In a way, it is easier for us secular folks, if we are open to discovery, as it's those adventures of the heart and spirit which keep me sober.

My sobriety date is July 4th 2008.

[NoelleR]

"...'if you don't believe in a God or a higher power, you're never going to stay sober.'..."

"...'If you don't find a higher power, you will get drunk again.'..."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ah yes, down here in Houston, TX (in what I like to call our li'll corner of the Bible-belt), the folks are not quite so subtle; what I heard mostly was stuff like........: 1) "Get God (and obviously God of their understanding) or get drunk;" and 2) "You don't believe in God (same as above parens)? Well, you're just a relapse waiting to happen." (gotta luv them encouragin' folks---LOLOL).

Funny thing is, I didn't 'get God' and I didn't 'get drunk' and neither did most of my close recovery friends (atheists all). ....and relapse.....? Nope, but many of those past accusers did (relapse)---some, sadly, never making it back to sobriety.

Long term...? Old-timers....? Well, I'll leave that up to you. My best friend in recovery here in Houston and I both have 23 years sobriety (that's 23 years each, not a total of 23 years); my old sponsor has 26 years sobriety (and btw, she'll often, and loudly, tell anyone who wants to know that the only time she ever gets on her knees is to vacuum under the bed.....LOLOL); my CA sponsor (I spent my first 3 months of sobriety/recovery in the SF Bay Area) has 28 years sobriety.....Whenever I go back to CA for the Living Sober Conference, I always make it a point to check out the atheist/agnostic meetings-----and, yes, there's lots of 'long term' sobriety there (and good quality sobriety, as far as I can tell).

As far as I can tell, a belief in 'God' or 'HP' has nothing to do with whether a person can get or stay sober. What I see is a person abstains from picking up and then does whatever makes his/her life happy and content (happy, joyous, and free; clean and serene); whether that's working AA/NA's 12 steps or some other steps (12, or 6, or however many, or none). In other words, if all a person wants (to be sober/clean/recovered) is abstinence, and he/she is happy with his/her life.....then who am I to argue.....after all, all those terms (alcoholic; alcoholism; sober; sobriety; clean; recovery; recovering; recovered) are subjective terms to begin with...... (o:


NoelleR

[MycoolFitz]

You know, I don't know on the deepest level if it matters. If you stay sober and grow and are healthy physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually (I'm not talking religion here) isn't that the point and purpose. Whatever it takes to achieve this healthy sobriety, more power to it. Whatever appears superfluous, like excess bagage, leave it behind. I know that God talk and higher power talk can grate on the nerves of those who don't accept certain deities and dogmas, different strokes for different folks. My practice is what fits and feels right for me, if something isn't working I adjust it. I'm sober, dealing with life on life's terms and feel that I am both truely alive and living life. And for me this is bottom line. I don't personally want to expand the time and energy debating cabbages and kings. My affection and support to recovering people everywhere and my heartfelt thoughts to those who hasve yet to find their path.

“We want Truth badly. We want to hold it tightly in our hand. We want to give it to others in a word or a phrase. We want something we can jot down. Something we can impress upon other—and impress others with.

We act as though Truth were something we could stuff in our pockets, something we could take out every once in awhile to show people, saying, ‘Here, this is it!’ We forget that they will show us their slips of paper, with other ostensible Truths written on them.”—Steve Hagen

[vicarious]

I've always had trouble with those who had such a strong emphasis on god as the one who saved them from themselves from their drinking. Or rather those who pushed their belief of that on me. It's ok with me if that is what someone believes and it brings them comfort and sobriety.

I've been sober nearly 4 years, and I believe there's stuff out there bigger than me that I don't understand, but I don't think it's troubling itself with worrying about my state of being or sobriety. I think those are up to me to work at and keep in balance. When I start thinking about what the universe might "have in mind for me," I start getting worked up in the fairness or unfairness of things in life, like sufferring children. I cannot believe in an actively involved HP and look at bad situations of innocent abuse without getting kind of messed up in an unhealthy way.

That's how it works for me, and I am pretty happy with how I feel about myself and my progress in recovery.

[vegibean]

Love, love, love what you all have said. Thank you so much for sharing on this topic. I'm sure I could have searched through all of these threads for the same or close to answer but I thank you for taking the time.

[vegibean]

Originally Posted by digderidoo

I now view that something that's within myself as my higher power. I have 14 months.

Paul

That's about where I'm at too Paul. TY!!

[Zencat]

Originally Posted by vegibean

I have heard the statement made many times "if you don't believe in a God or a higher power, you're never going to stay sober." I think that's a bunch of hooey. I've reassured my sponsee the same.

Hooey is great description of what you quoted. Yet taken to the widest sense a HP can have pure secular meaningfulness. No need to get bogged down in metaphysical hoopla. Or even mythology, spirituality or any other concept that doesn't jive with yourself. Independent of what all the gurus and high potentates of recovery speak blather...if one can find peace and prosperity in addiction treatment...one is way ahead of the gamesmanship that recovery concepts has woefully become for a few God disciples of recovery politicizes.

[stone]

I do think spirituality can have a place in recovery, it does for me. The main thing, IMO, is CHANGE, if you can stop drinking and go ahead with your life in a happy well-adjusted way then great, but if you stop drinking and find you now have a whole new set of mental and emotional problems that you were not aware of before and you think to yourself "sh!t, so that is why I drank!", then change is needed.

[vegibean]

Originally Posted by stone

I do think spirituality can have a place in recovery, it does for me. The main thing, IMO, is CHANGE, if you can stop drinking and go ahead with your life in a happy well-adjusted way then great, but if you stop drinking and find you now have a whole new set of mental and emotional problems that you were not aware of before and you think to yourself "sh!t, so that is why I drank!", then change is needed.

OMG!!! AMEN TO THAT STONE!!!! I hear that loud and clear.

[kurtrambis]

Great thread! Its given me encouragement

[vegibean]

Originally Posted by kurtrambis

Great thread! Its given me encouragement

Glad to hear that kurt. And by the way, I'm not a God person at all, however I do LOVE that Serenity Prayer!!! Sometimes when needed I say it over and over and over again.

[EbbyThatcher]

Most people in AA meetings are not alcoholics. They are normies who have the power to choose whether they will drink or not. The BB warns us that if you can get sober through a secular method you are not an alcoholic - see BB pg 34.
Anyone can claim to be an alcoholic and go to a meeting and get a 20+ year chip-however the real question is how did they get sober? Through GOD or self will? If the answer is self-will, they are not a real alcoholic- see BB pg 20-21 and 108-109.
A normies secular program of recovery will kill a real alcoholic.

“Not every drunk is an alcoholic.” Clarence Snyder AA 1966

Recovery is conceptual. Recovery is done with a BB , dictionary and a real alcoholic who has had a spiritual awakening as a result of intensive 12 step work. See BB pg 102.
If you are a real alcoholic, you must a psychic regime change of personality to recover; a new personality, rooted in GOD, who is not selfish and self centered. As the BB says- GOD makes that possible-see BB pg 62.
Alcoholism is fatal - apart from Divine Help from GOD Almighty!

[Rob B]

Hey There Ebby, It's important to respect the house we are in. My personal views match yours, I am a student of the book, That being said, these guys are not interested, which is fine by me. how about leaving the good folks here in the secular forum to their own thoughts and come on over to the 12 step forum I'd love to see more of these kind of posts over there. They will be much more appreciated.

[Overman]

Rob,
Thanks for identifying themes that elicit the "ONE WAY" approach to sobriety which tend to toxify certain threads.

Sobriety isn't a competition.

BTW, nice sig.

[Zencat]

to SoberRecovery EbbyThatcher.

Originally Posted by EbbyThatcher

psychic regime change of personality

I am undergoing a systematic psychycal change with the aid of a personal secular HP understanding. Yet another Similarity. And that's some of how I work a secular 12-step program. It can be done.

The "real alcoholic" looks to me to be the same as what I am: a person with alcohol addiction. I find it interesting that there are all kinds of alcoholism. Some kinds are defined as stages or types. I guess it helps each unique recovery system to better define their recovery program. As for me I'm less concerned about the unique classes of alcoholism and just focus on my addiction treatment within the realm of recovery. With all differences aside I manage to fit well within AA by utilizing the similarities and neglecting the differences.

[allport]

I have just been talking to a lovely man who has 30 years of secular sobriety Vegi so it can be done

Certainly gives me hope

[lulamay]

I didn't but now I do.
I struggle with AA meetings though - I get a lot from AA Big Book

[endzoner]

Originally Posted by Pagekeeper

I've heard the same thing. One night a group of us went out for dinner after the meeting. During the conversation, an "old timer," who is also heavily involved in the church and ministry, said to me, "If you don't find a higher power, you will get drunk again."

I thought about it for a moment and then I said, "Well if that's true, why do I see people who believe picking up white chips?"

If sobriety demands belief, and belief itself is what keeps one sober, then why do believers continue to pick up white chips?

Belief is not enough. I don't think belief itself has anything to do with sobriety. I say that because I watch people profess their faith in the rooms and a week later they get drunk. A friend of mine has done this. He was saved, born again, and he has a strong faith in his God. There's not a doubt in my mind that he "believes." But faith alone can't keep him sober.

My very small opinion, and I may be wrong: it is not belief, but authentically enlarging one's spiritual life which keeps us sober in AA. One improves their conscious contact by practicing steps, prayer and meditation, searching for a spiritual way of life, and any other activity which inspires one to do better, to change, to see the truth about themselves.

One can have a strong belief and strong faith, but it makes no difference if they do not authentically enlarge their spiritual life. What do I mean by authentically? Well, I used to feel real sorry for myself in AA because it seemed everyone believed in the same HP except for me. Yeah, I know, cry me a river! But having spoken to dozens of others about this issue, I have realized that "believers" have their own struggle--they can't seem to let go of their very narrow conceptions of God, and as a result, they have trouble growing spiritually.

In a way, it is easier for us secular folks, if we are open to discovery, as it's those adventures of the heart and spirit which keep me sober.

My sobriety date is July 4th 2008.

i like your thinkin( your small opinion)

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by vegibean

I have heard the statement made many times "if you don't believe in a God or a higher power, you're never going to stay sober." I think that's a bunch of hooey. I've reassured my sponsee the same.

I know a guy who has 20+ years clean. He calls himself an atheist but admits that he prays to "whatever runs the universe".

He has what I would call solid-gold recovery. Does he believe in a
higher-power? I would say yes but he makes no attempt to define it. Kind of like the Zen Buddhists.

[eastcoaster]

I really stressed myself out trying to come up with something I could think of as my higher power. My sponsor had to really convince me that it was ok to move onto step three. I figured I was pretty open to the possibility of accepting a higher power, but that I was just plain faithless. I really really wanted to be convinced. And you know, after thinking about and reading about all kinds of different ideas of "god" I'm pretty convinced that I'm an atheist as opposed to being the agnostic I fancied myself.

For me, it was important that I find something outside of myself, because this alcoholism is in me, and I do believe it's greater than my own will, as evidenced by the earnest and unsuccessful attempts I made to quit on my own, before becoming involved with AA. So I think the crux of this whole higher power thing is in being humble enough to recognize that I am not the centre of the universe; and, I guess, that I am a part of something bigger. I don't know what I really believe, there are probably shades of Buddhism, and the collective unconscious, but the closest thing I've had to a spiritual experience was probably watching the last Charlie Kaufman movie. For real. And my vague idea about how things and people are connected and beautiful is ok and I guess it works or the group works or my sponsor works. At least one of those things had done the trick for over 15 months now, and I never stayed sober for longer than a couple of weeks before this.

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by eastcoaster

... the closest thing I've had to a spiritual experience was probably watching the last Charlie Kaufman movie.

If that sort of thing helps you try watching:

"What the Bleep Do We Know" or
"Further Down the Rabbit Hole"