Questions of "We Agnostics"

[ClayTheScribe]

I hate sounding like a broken record. I've read here several accounts of atheists and agnostics getting through AA without a belief in God. Others recommend I read the "We Agnostics" chapter in the Big Book. Someone bought me a copy of the Big Book yesterday at AA. I read the chapter. Now I'm more confused. The chapter seems to be suggesting that sure many of us we're atheists or agnostics, but after immersing ourselves in the steps, we came to find the power of God, or a Creative Intelligence. An example:

When, however, the perfectly logical assumption is suggested that underneath the material world and life as we see it, there is an All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence, right there our perverse streak comes to the surface and we laboriously set out to convince ourselves it isn't so. We read wordy books and indulge in windy arguments, thinking we believe this universe needs no God to explain it. Were our contentions true, it would follow that life originated out of nothing, means nothing, and proceeds nowhere.

That is not a description of me as an atheist. I don't believe the universe came out of nothing, I just don't believe there is an all powerful, guiding, creative intelligence behind it. The universe and nature has always been, simply is and always will be. Nature is an evolving force I find to be be an evolving force obviously greater than I am, but not a creative intelligence. I don't believe there's an intelligence that decides it's going to be partly cloudy in England today, and a typhoon is going to hit the east coast of Japan tomorrow. Here's another passage that has me confused:

When we saw others solve their problems by a simple reliance upon the Spirit of the Universe, we had to stop doubting the power of God. Our ideas did not work. But the God idea did.

Maybe I'm still getting hung up on the G word, but it seems to be suggesting we have to accept the God idea as others believe in it. I don't doubt the power of God because I don't believe He exists. Another troubling passage:

When we became alcoholics, crushed by a self-imposed crisis we could not postpone or evade, we had fearlessly face the proposition that either God is everything or else He is nothing. God either is, or He isn't. What was our choice to be?

Really, it's that black and white? Say my concept of God is electricity or Nature. I don't believe electricity is everything, nor is Nature. There's also free will and the intelligence of human beings.

Then they sum up the chapter with a story of a friend who "thought he was an atheist" and eventually came to believe in God and a creator. Is this what AA ultimately suggests? That you must ultimately come to accept a creator, a maker? I've heard varying accounts, so I honestly don't know what to believe at this point. I don't want to engage in these 12 steps if I'm to find after a few of them that my conception of "God" or a "Power greater than myself" is inadequate unless I embrace the most commonly held belief in God. Or did I ultimately interpret "We Agnostics" completely different than was expected?

A little perspective needed. I welcome any lashings for asking the same questions again.

[digderidoo]

Originally Posted by pg55

We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us.

This paragraph in the 'we agnostics' chapter helped me to come to a God of my own understanding, rather than a Judeo-Christian entity type understanding.

Hope it helps.

Paul

[SelfSeeking]

Heh. We Agnostics.

It took me a looooong time to make my peace with that chapter. There are statements in it that remain obnoxious to me to this day. Basically, I went to a lot of meetings and found the AA community, including an excellent sponsor. She is taking me through the steps. I'm really sorry but it's been a long journey that I can't wrap up into a post, I don't have the gift for that sort of thing that others here do. Suffice it to say that I have taken steps 1 2 & 3 and while I do have a HP, it is not a "creative intelligence".

I have to say, with your belief in souls, you are already starting in a more open place than I was. So my advice based on my experience is to... relax. Start with the basic goal of going to meetings with just the goal of finding support of people who have been where you've been and come through to the other side in one piece. It gives you something to do besides drink; gets you out of the house; it's free; there's coffee; let the god-stuff bounce off. Just don't drink and go to meetings, yes I said it! I would suggest lots of speaker meetings. Those knocked me on my @ss when I was brand-new, I came to realize that absolutely NOTHING had happened to me that had not happened to another alcoholic who was now sober.

Whatever happens next, happens. You might choose to never work a step. This is allowed. You might find that "don't drink and go to meetings" doesn't do it and either stop going to meetings and find another path, or decide to get a sponsor and start step work. China may stop loaning our country money, take us over and we will all be too busy learning Mandarin to think about these issues. That's tomorrow. *shrug* What are your plans for this Sunday night? If there's nothing on your plate, an option is to go to a meeting.

I was 3 or 4 months into going to meetings before I felt ready to buckle down to the steps. It takes a while for the brain fog to clear.

All the best, Clay.

[spittake]

Originally Posted by ClayTheScribe

A little perspective needed. I welcome any lashings for asking the same questions again.

Now there's an interesting little nugget.

I too don't believe in any sort of Creative Intelligence or Spirit of the Universe (though I recall hearing something about a synchronicity of atomic particles, which scared me). But I'm not sure I believe in infinite existence, either. We need a theoretical mathematician to get on this board and help us out!

I keep meaning to read A Brief History of Time...

I share your interpretation of "We Agnostics," but I think you can utilize AA and it's offerings in any way that is advantageous. I bet the slogan, "Take what you like and leave the rest," was devised specifically for people like us.

[FightingIrish]

The Big Book also says we find God within ourselves. This helped me.

[FightingIrish]

Also, Step Two does not say, "came to believe in God."

It says, "came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

E.g., I believe that I can be restored to sanity, and what's going to do it is something that I presently have no conception of or which does not emanate from my own will.

[Zencat]

When ever I read in the BB an attempt to describe God by the BB authors...I take it to mean its their understanding of God. I have so far concluded that that my understanding of a HP is not the same as the BB's authors.

I really don't know what to make out of that "we agnostics" chapter other than its unrelated to how I came to believe in a power greater than myself. And that being my HP is Zen Buddhism.

[stone]

We agnostics......basically says, "open your mind so I can play a con-trick on you...you know all that power greater than yourself stuff? Well that is God, and if you don't come to believe in God then you are narrow minded and prejudiced. Whatever HP you have chosen is just a starting place to get you to believe in God." The whole chapter is sneaky, duplicitous and contradicts the spirit of the Program as I see it.

I am sticking with my HP thanks, and it aint God.

Spiritual experience yes, religious conversion no!

Check out this thread, the first post describes a lot of my feelings about that awful chapter...http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-now-what.html (Higher Powerless And Proud Of It... Now What?) There are some good posts there too.

[stone]

Here is a post by Ago that describes for me how simple it can be to do the steps and get passed the "God thing".

Originally Posted by Ago

See, to me the twelve steps are EXACTLY a mathematical equation where if you strip away the "Christian dogma*" and when you see the "integer" "God" you plug in your own "value" for a "power greater then yourself" then work steps one through twelve, arriving at "having HAD a spiritual awakening as THE result of these steps"

where spiritual awakening = personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism (our more religious members call it God consciousness) that means our "non" or "less" religious members call it a "personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism"

I hope he doesn't mind me using it here.

[least]

Not to be too 'off topic' but this reminds me of a favorite prayer... "oh God, if there is a God, save my soul, if I have a soul..."


that's just how I feel!

[ClayTheScribe]

Spiritual teacher Eckhart Tolle talks in his book The Power Of Now about the Source, another way to think of God, and Being. The Source is the life force from which we all came, but I don't view it as a conscious being, and Tolle says you don't have to. I'm either going to run with that concept of Source and Being, or Nature as they are all HPs.

[keithj]

Clay,

We can go through that chapter 4 and discuss it all day long and it probably doesn't do much good. The 12 steps are not about knowing or understanding. They are about having an experience.

If you can relate to Tolle's idea of Being, you have plenty enough 'god concept' to recover. What is required at this point is not more knowledge, but more willingness and open-mindedness.

You don't know how to stay sober. The people that have had a spiritual awakening as the result of the 12 steps do know how. Others may also, but this is a 12 step forum. Become willing to accept help, and it will materialize.

[chairmanma084]

New to this AA thing, not even there for drinking, but i've been reading that chapter a little bit as well. As a fellow non-believer, I feel that, just like in the bible, there are lessons to be learned through the steps and all that regardless of being a christian.

that said, take what you learn from the people in the groups and forget about God. Don't let getting bogged down on having to accept a creator disrupt your sobriet.

IMO, accepting God has a lot to do with humbling yourself. addiction is a selfish disease. so if you can accept that you're not the center of the universe and that your actions affect so many people/things around you; then you're getting the point.

remember, just as finding God is finding YOUR God, sobriety is YOUR sobriety. Even though you may keep clean for many other folks and reasons, keeping clean is a personal choice.

if you don't buy into God, focus on the lessons.

whatever you do, keep going.

[ClayTheScribe]

Originally Posted by keithj

Clay,

We can go through that chapter 4 and discuss it all day long and it probably doesn't do much good. The 12 steps are not about knowing or understanding. They are about having an experience.

If you can relate to Tolle's idea of Being, you have plenty enough 'god concept' to recover. What is required at this point is not more knowledge, but more willingness and open-mindedness.

You don't know how to stay sober. The people that have had a spiritual awakening as the result of the 12 steps do know how. Others may also, but this is a 12 step forum. Become willing to accept help, and it will materialize.

I suppose this is jumping ahead of myself, but what if you never have a spiritual awakening? Do you just keep having to do the steps until you do? Are there people who complete the 12 steps without ever having a spiritual experience or does that defeat the purpose? I think having a spiritual awakening would mean having to love myself and I'm so far from there.

[stone]

Originally Posted by ClayTheScribe

I suppose this is jumping ahead of myself, but what if you never have a spiritual awakening? Do you just keep having to do the steps until you do? Are there people who complete the 12 steps without ever having a spiritual experience or does that defeat the purpose? I think having a spiritual awakening would mean having to love myself and I'm so far from there.

I think "spiritual awakening" can sound a bit too much like an end point to be achieved like some kind of perfect enlightenment. I don't think we have to be like the Buddha or Eckhart Tolle to recover from alcoholism.
The idea is to have a psychic change, personality change, spiritual awakening, sufficient to recover from alcoholism.

[ClayTheScribe]

Originally Posted by stone

I think "spiritual awakening" can sound a bit too much like an end point to be achieved like some kind of perfect enlightenment. I don't think we have to be like the Buddha or Eckhart Tolle to recover from alcoholism.
The idea is to have a psychic change, personality change, spiritual awakening, sufficient to recover from alcoholism.

That makes sense. I know this has been asked elsewhere on this forum, but is there such a thing as a recovered alcoholic or are you always a recovering alcoholic?

[stone]

WE, OF Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one
hundred men and women who have recovered from
a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. To show
other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the
main purpose of this book.

That is from the forward to the first edition.

Some in AA say recovered and some say recovering.

[Zencat]

Originally Posted by ClayTheScribe

I know this has been asked elsewhere on this forum, but is there such a thing as a recovered alcoholic or are you always a recovering alcoholic?

Recovered for me means that I no longer suffer from the symptoms of addiction. As long as I maintain a regimen of addiction treatments my symptoms are a bay.

[keithj]

Originally Posted by ClayTheScribe

I suppose this is jumping ahead of myself, but what if you never have a spiritual awakening?

It's definitely jumping ahead of yourself. You're already thinking about possible outcomes before it happens. Trying to guess the outcome is in opposition to having the experience.

In my experience of working with many other alcoholics, it is impossible not to have a spiritual awakening as the result of the steps. If they are done honestly and thorougly, a spiritual awakening is the result.

Originally Posted by ClayTheScribe

I think having a spiritual awakening would mean having to love myself and I'm so far from there.

This thinking will kill you. Do the work, have the experience, and you will know what having a spiritual awakening involves.

Ever done the one-hand exercise, Clay? No, not that one. Hell, we've all done that one. I mean the one where you pretend you only have one hand. Now, I'm going to give you something. It's going to be something big and life altering. Do you want it? If you do, what is the first thing you have to do in order to take it? Remember, you only have one hand. What's the first thing?

[chairmanma084]

Originally Posted by ClayTheScribe

That makes sense. I know this has been asked elsewhere on this forum, but is there such a thing as a recovered alcoholic or are you always a recovering alcoholic?

recovered: To restore (oneself) to a normal state

impossible question, clay. what is normal? you obviously do not feel normal. but maybe you can remember a time where you felt at peace. i imagine that finding ways to find that feeling again without using/drinking are at least steps in the right direction. maybe find a way to feel ok with not being normal.

[bugsworth]

Clay, as someone who struggled with aa ideology as you are, albeit for different reasons, I can identify with you. I found the following steps to be a help in my early sobriety...no belief in God is necessary and they have been posted here before by numerous people.

I hope they might help you.

The Humanist 12-Steps

1. We accept the fact that all our efforts to stop drinking have failed.

2. We believe that we must turn elsewhere for help.

3. We turn to our fellow men and women, particularly those who have struggled with the same problem.

4. We have made a list of the situations in which we are most likely to drink.

5. We ask our friends to help us avoid those situations.

6. We are ready to accept the help they give us.

7. We honestly hope they will help.

8. We have made a list of the persons we have harmed and to whom we hope to make amends.

9. We shall do all we can to make amends, in any way that will not cause further harm.

10. We will continue to make such lists and revise them as needed.

11. We appreciate what our friends have done and are doing to help us.

12. We, in turn, are ready to help others who may come to us in the same way

and yes people recover SR is a great place to witness it!

[ClayTheScribe]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

Clay, as someone who struggled with aa ideology as you are, albeit for different reasons, I can identify with you. I found the following steps to be a help in my early sobriety...no belief in God is necessary and they have been posted here before by numerous people.

I hope they might help you.

The Humanist 12-Steps

1. We accept the fact that all our efforts to stop drinking have failed.

2. We believe that we must turn elsewhere for help.

3. We turn to our fellow men and women, particularly those who have struggled with the same problem.

4. We have made a list of the situations in which we are most likely to drink.

5. We ask our friends to help us avoid those situations.

6. We are ready to accept the help they give us.

7. We honestly hope they will help.

8. We have made a list of the persons we have harmed and to whom we hope to make amends.

9. We shall do all we can to make amends, in any way that will not cause further harm.

10. We will continue to make such lists and revise them as needed.

11. We appreciate what our friends have done and are doing to help us.

12. We, in turn, are ready to help others who may come to us in the same way

and yes people recover SR is a great place to witness it!

That's good I like it, even though it's a pretty radical change from the original 12 steps. I can see a roadblock for me with this list in the case of me moving to another state, which is very possible for me now. I won't have my friends around (unless you're talking about your friends in AA and on SR?) and I'm not quick to make friends. I'm somewhat uncomfortable relying on friends, a la Step 5, to keep me sober because that puts too much unnecessary pressure on others for my sobriety. That and I don't consider them a power greater than myself. I'd feel more comfortable calling upon Nature or Being than other people or myself.

Fortunately I'm much more optimistic about recovering from my addictions than recovering from my depression. Though I fear if I don't recover from depression, I'll be drawn back into my addictive cycle.

Thanks though!

[ClayTheScribe]

Originally Posted by chairmanma084

recovered: To restore (oneself) to a normal state

impossible question, clay. what is normal? you obviously do not feel normal. but maybe you can remember a time where you felt at peace. i imagine that finding ways to find that feeling again without using/drinking are at least steps in the right direction. maybe find a way to feel ok with not being normal.

While I have achieved moments of peace with drugs and alcohol, they never lasted. And when I came down I was usually brought into a hell worse than before I took the drug. But I'd keep doing it again and again, that's how I knew I was powerless. I'll never be normal, I don't ever want to be. I like being strange/odd/weird, that's one of the few things I like about me. I just want to feel at peace with myself and the universe. I know I have to do that without alcohol or drugs. I know I can stay off alcohol or drugs if I use the resources (therapist, Life Ring AA) at my feet, I just can't imagine ever feeling at peace again. I don't even remember the last time I truly felt at peace when I wasn't high. Probably when I was a kid, before age 11. I guess it's possible I'm just not optimistic.

[ClayTheScribe]

Originally Posted by keithj

It's definitely jumping ahead of yourself. You're already thinking about possible outcomes before it happens. Trying to guess the outcome is in opposition to having the experience.

In my experience of working with many other alcoholics, it is impossible not to have a spiritual awakening as the result of the steps. If they are done honestly and thorougly, a spiritual awakening is the result.



This thinking will kill you. Do the work, have the experience, and you will know what having a spiritual awakening involves.

Ever done the one-hand exercise, Clay? No, not that one. Hell, we've all done that one. I mean the one where you pretend you only have one hand. Now, I'm going to give you something. It's going to be something big and life altering. Do you want it? If you do, what is the first thing you have to do in order to take it? Remember, you only have one hand. What's the first thing?

I don't understand this metaphor. Do I have to pretend to have one hand in real life? If I wasn't ready to take something big and life-altering, it wouldn't matter if I had one hand or two. I guess the first thing I'd have to do is determine if I can carry this huge thing in one hand??

[bugsworth]

Clay...you have to let go of all that you are holding on to in order to reach out for the new.

I believe that once we start changing how we look at thing the things that we look at change.