Does anyone in "secular 12 steps"...

[paulmh]

actually get offended by the use of the G*d word in this forum? Or get riled up when there's talk about religion?

we've had some posts taken down recently - as far as I understand it because they talked about religion. I don't know about anyone else, but my programme isn't challenged by G*d talk. If I'm with another alcoholic in recovery I'm looking for what unites us not what separates us.

Thoughts anyone? Seems to me that this forum has seen some great ESH recently, for the most part tolerantly given and received. Do we want to ban all talk of religion? Or is it ok for people to describe their experience (and experience, it seems to me, is ALWAYS secular!) using whatever language they want? And isn't that consistent with and much more in the spirit of 12 step recovery than censorship just because certain words are used?

[ananda]

good question Paul, I will think on it...i do know that I am sometimes "offended" if that is the right word by lots of things....thts life for me...i'm just human right?

Like you I beleive we have to get beyond the words to the expereince. I struggle sometimes because i would like to talk with some people who don't believe in "god" and work the steps...but more subdivisions of the forums isn't the answer really....pretty soon we would all have our own thread and no one else would post

I have struggled at times about the "secular" threads because although we have tried to define "secular" the bottom line is there are alot of ways to define that word. Many posts are not secular by the way I think of the word...but as i understand it secular just means no formal reliegion so there isn't a real difference between the 12 step thread and teh secular 12 step thread by that definition...

Anyhow...those are some honest thoughts I have....i dont know how we can really say something is secular or not...I just post if i feel comfortable and stay away when things go in a direction that isn't helpful for me on the path i'm on.

[stone]

Originally Posted by ananda

..but as i understand it secular just means no formal reliegion so there isn't a real difference between the 12 step thread and teh secular 12 step thread by that definition...

This occurs to me too. Secular can mean non-spiritual but I think most people take it to mean non-religious and AA is not religious anyway. So why the need for a secular 12 step forum in the first place?

But, to address the OP..... since people sometimes use the word God (of their understanding...as this is a 12 step forum) and not mean a God of any religion, they are then using the word God in a secular (non-religious) way...IMO.

[Pagekeeper]

I was wondering where a few posts had gone . . .

I can fully understand how certain words and rhetorical devices can be offensive. The word "God" bothered me for many months. I would utterly cringe when I heard it. It no longer bothers me, but it has been a long process--not something that just happened over night. The more I seek a spiritual way of life, and the more I contemplate what the terms mean to ME, the less it all bothers me. But like I said, didn't happen over night.

I'm still a bit sensitive to outright religious evangelism. Mainly because I feel it has no place in AA, as it states in The Preamble--"We are not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, or organization . . ." To me, it diverts us from our primary purpose. My beliefs are my choice, but my primary purpose is to help another recover from alcoholism, not to convert him/her to my belief system.

In my very small opinion, the posts that were deleted on this forum diverted us from our primary purpose by their alliance with a religious sect. Their motive was not to help another suffering alcoholic recover from alcoholism, but to use religious rhetoric as a means to an end. That's just my opinion.

Having said that, I would rather leave posts of that nature up, as I think it can make for interesting discussion of what our primary purpose is.

[miss communicat]

Not much offends me....save closed mindedness. Unity in recovery works for me .

I can also respect that their are many for whom a G*D free 12 step zone is essential. I try, therefore, to refrain from the tag "g*d"" when posting here. It is my practice here, as well as in live AA meetings, to refer to the "g*d" force as Infinite Intelligence, the Creative principle, the Universe, prana, energy......

Now, THAT offends many in AA 12 step. If it offends in Secular 12 step, please let me know.

I look forward to hearing from others.

[SelfSeeking]

Evangelical posts should get taken down. Thread hijacks should be taken down. I think the mods have gotten it right.
I try to just post about my step work on this subforum... because being secular in AA is not a constant debate. It's still about being a recovering alcoholic in AA. In fact the only time I feel conflicted about it these days is when I'm on SR! Hmmm this should tell me something. Less online time maybe?

[MycoolFitz]

I'm 103 daze sober today, that is my focus. I used to be offended by many things, people's political opinions (that differed from mine); people's religious views,especially the G-- word) that differed from mine). etc.,etc. Now as long as I'm not personally attacked or put down I let opinions go. If I am personally attacked or put down, I say thank you and walk away, drives people nuts. There is a Korean school of Zen Buddhism called "Don't Know", or "Don't Know Mind."-- Is there a creator God?, Don't Know. Is there something after death?, Don't Know. Why are we here at all vs not here? Don't Know. Will I maintain my sobriety?, Don't know. What will happen in the next minute? Don't know. Is this post helpful?, Don't know. Yours in peace and serenity--Mycool

[NoelleR]

Before I begin, I want to apologize for the use of the word ‘God/god’ in this post, to any and all who may find its use offensive (which would include me, in this particular Forum).

Per the dictionaries I checked, ‘secular’ is defined as........:

1) of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred; temporal: secular interests;
2) not pertaining to or connected with religion (opposed to sacred ): secular music;
3) (of education, a school, etc.) concerned with nonreligious subjects.

The word ‘God/god’ is defined as.......:

1) the supreme or ultimate reality: as a: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe;
2) a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship ; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality;
3) (lowercase) one of several deities, esp. a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs;
4) (often lowercase) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy;
5) the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, Love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle;
6) (lowercase) an image of a deity; an idol;
7) any deified person or object.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If I want to read threads peppered with the word ‘God/god’ or the term ‘God/god of my understanding’ I go to the Alcoholism- 12-Step Support Forum (which I consider to be aligned with AA---full of ’God/god’ ---- and although AA states it is ’spiritual’ and not ’religious’ it only takes one reading of the chapter ’We Agnostics’ to realize just how religious AA really is.

This particular forum--Secular 12 Step Recovery-- for me, is a chance for folks to discuss how they work AA’s 12 steps without ant concept of God/god, and therefore I always hope that the word ’God/god’ will be used sparingly, and that the term ‘God/god of my understanding’ will not be used atall.

Am I offended by the word ‘God/god’ in this forum.....? Not for the most part, but there have been times when it seemed a certain post/poster was trying to proselytize; a post which would seem more in the order of AA’s 12-Step forum, where it could be preaching to the choir.

Of course the word ‘God/god’ will be seen in this forum, but I would hope only in/by those posts/posters questioning how they might work the AA Program if they do not believe.....and of course if the BB is quoted.....(lots of God/god; All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence throughout it).

I guess one could say that I expect to see the word ‘God/god’ in posts in this forum when the BB is being quoted or questioned, but not when it comes to individual’s ES&H in working the steps......simple....? ......hah


NoelleR

P.S. Just as an aside.....do the folks who insist on spelling God/god by using an ‘*’ in place of the letter ‘o’ realize that in so doing they are aligning themselves with a sect/denomination......? ....just a tidbit for further research......lol

[MycoolFitz]

"Believe nothing on the faith of traditions,
even though they have been held in honor
for many generations and in diverse places.
Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it.
Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past.
Do not believe what you yourself have imagined,
persuading yourself that a God inspires you.
Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests.
After examination, believe what you yourself have tested
and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto."—Buddha (Just a man like you and me, but awake)

PS--If I use this symbol G*D I am not alligning myself with any sect/denomination. There is nothing to realize, there is nothing to research and there exists no ultimate self to allign or research in any case..just a tidbit...lol

[stone]

Originally Posted by NoelleR

although AA states it is ’spiritual’ and not ’religious’ it only takes one reading of the chapter ’We Agnostics’ to realize just how religious AA really is.

I dislike that chapter intensely, but you can't say AA is religious because of it. You could use the same logic and say, "just read were it says to choose your own concept of God, that proves AA isn't religious".

Originally Posted by NoelleR

This particular forum--Secular 12 Step Recovery-- for me, is a chance for folks to discuss how they work AA’s 12 steps without ant concept of God/god, and therefore I always hope that the word ’God/god’ will be used sparingly, and that the term ‘God/god of my understanding’ will not be used atall.

I would expect the word God to be used sparingly here too. What about Higher Power, does the HP have to be a tree to be used here, or can people use a more spiritual HP that is not God and still talk about it here?


I just don't see the need to censor so much, if people in the AA forum say their HP is Group Of Drunks, I don't see that being censored.

[Zencat]

As I have tried to become more tolerant towards the beliefs of others. G*d or religion discussions can still be difficult for me. I chalk that up to immaturity on my part regarding spiritual principles. I do better when the discussion is void of proselytizing or when the discussion void of directly intolerant (even hostile) to the personal spirituality of others.

I'm making an effort to keep my responses on topic and not go off into a side discussion that detracts from the OP's topic and the consequent discussion that follows. Otherwise personal ES&H of others, be it religious or deists or something along those lines is tolerable for me. As long my spirituality is tolerated under the spirit of mutual respect and growth along spiritual lines, I'm happy to give in return .

[Morning Glory]

Paul, I explained why we moderate the forum the way we do to you in a PM when you asked for an explanation. So why the thread? You went around Alera and went to me. Now you are going to go around me and try to go to members to get what you want? That kind of manipulation isn't going to work.

I opened this Secular 12 step forum because of the debate you had going on Secular Connections. You were upset that the the secular members didn't receive you well because you used the AA program. I gave you a solution by opening this forum for you and you stopped posting here after that for quite some time. Wasn't that the solution you wanted?

Now you are starting a thread wanting a secular 12 step forum open to "God" topics.
That doesn't make much sense for a secular forum. We already have that on the regular AA forum, the Spirituality forum, and the Christian forum.

It's not going to happen. When you have threads talking about God it is open to anyone who wants to share their experience about God. Then we get into the debate that this is the secular forum and we don't talk about God here.

Thank you all for your contribution to this thread. We do care about your opinions. That's why we open new forums when we see the need. I think there are many forums open that solve any problem anyone has with this issue.

We can't be all things to all people. I hope you find something you like better if you are not happy here.