Atheists and AA

[digderidoo]

Originally Posted by clay

I'm definitely trying to figure it all out before I go in. I have a tendency of doing that. I think that comes from being a journalist; we want the whole picture and now.

I think we all may have tried to figure it out before we go in. When i say all i mean all of us in the secular forums. As for want the whole picture now, all alcoholics/addicts i have met are like that, including myself. The program are called steps for a reason.

Originally Posted by clay

But for now I'll just try to work on Step 1, which I'm still wondering how I work it out. Is it simply admitting you're powerless over alcohol and your life is unmanageable or do you have to do more?

Again it takes time and only experience will teach you the steps. I work the steps slowly, in no rush, and get the wisdom of the steps through experience. I can't tell you how to work it, you have to figure it out for yourself, all i can say is what worked for me. It's kind of like trying to describe the effect of marijuana to someone who hasn't experienced it, you can tell them what it's like but they're not going to know until they have tried it.

Originally Posted by "step1

We admitted we were powerless over alcohol -- that our lives had become unmanageable.

When i first came to AA i knew and had admitted to myself that i was an alcoholic that i was powerless over alcohol, but did this mean i had got step 1? If i had got step 1 and knew that i was powerless then surely the desire i had to just take one drink, to just drink normal, to think one night will not hurt will go away?? So why did i at times think i could possibly have one night, that maybe one day i could drink normal, that maybe one day i could have a glass of wine with a meal? The reason...because i obviously hadn't got step 1 and still thought that potentially i might have still held a little bit of power over alcohol.

I knew i was powerless through experiencing trying to drink normal. Now i am not suggesting that you do this, this is what happened to me. On my birthday in April last year i thought i could go one night out with friends having a drink, two weeks later on FA cup final day....thats football (er sorry soccer to you lol), my son phones me up telling me he has spent his bus fare home so i picked him up after drinking a bottle and a half of wine. On the way home i truly realised that i was powerless, that i couldn't pick up one drink. I wished i could say that was the end of it, but i drank for three more weeks, finally going out on my friends birthday 30th May 2008, with the intentions of only drinking budweisers like my friends and keeping at their pace. What happened was i did drink budweisers, but two or three times more than my friends. All of this was six weeks after i went out for my birthday for 'one night of drinking'. During those six weeks, i had experienced drunkeness, black outs, cravings after the first drink, had some days off, drank when i was happy, when i was sad, when i was angry and when i wanted to party.

I finally realised that alcohol had beaten me, that i cannot take just one drink, from that day and each day since i have lost my desire to ever drink again. I have since heard that when many fully get this powerlessness, that the desire goes, it did for me. The following day i was happy that i knew i couldn't drink anymore, it was like a new way of life was in front of me and i was ready for it. I felt such a release, like a weight had lifted from my shoulders, i can only describe it as a 'road to Damascus' experience, but without Jesus. I was driving home in the morning from a friends i had stopped at, i knew i may have been over the limit still, i was picking my kids up yet again with alcohol still inside me, i knew that i couldn't drink anymore and looking forward to whatever that may bring.

But did that mean i got step 1??

Well step 1 goes futher than that....'that our lives had become unmanageable'

We all know how unmanageable are lives are when we drink, but the step doesn't say 'when we drink', it just says 'our lives had become unmanageable'. For me this unmanageability is the 'ism' in alcoholism, it's the things that make me want to drink. I learnt this through experience again. I tried to do it on my own, i tried to stay away from AA, for all the reasons you have mentioned, God, etc. What i found though is if i do stay away from other recovering alcoholics that i start getting stressed and anxious at the days sh*t. I came to realise after trying to stay sober on my own that my life was unmanageable, that i do not think like so called 'normal' people, that all my 'isms' of the alcoholism comes to the fore and this has the potential to make me want to drink.

But all of that is just me, you however have to figure this out by your own experience and your own path. IMO the only way you're going to figure out whether AA will work for you is to experience it, rather than let me and everyone else here try to explain to you how it works.

I wish you well in whatever path your sobriety takes.

Paul

[sfgirl]

Originally Posted by NoelleR

3) "...As far as my spiritual beliefs go, I believe I have a higher self, or my spirit or essence, that inhabits my soul..."

That's the ticket!!!! I know AA, and AAer's say we can choose anything for our higher power/god/whatever, as long as it not ourselves.....Well, that's exactly what I did, and it's worked for 23+ years.....Of course, I didn't use myself as I was upon entering the doors of AA; I used the person I would be tomorrow as long as I did not pick up today.....etc., etc., etc., yadda, yadda, yadda.... (o:

I just wanted to highlight this. I think this is a really good way to think about it. I don't think you need to conform your ideas to the rules but you can use the steps as a framework to help you think about things. To get too bogged down in the actual words isn't that helpful. Honestly I don't understand the "higher power" concept at all. I take it more in Noelle's way and that works fine for me. I don't understand it needing to be outside and away from my self especially if ultimately in a lot of theology we aren't necessarily separated from the divine. It probably is more about separating from one some people call the "smaller self" or the part of you that is full of desire, the ego part. But the spiritual part whether that is god-related or not in your mind also exists within you.


To appeal to your journalistic mind I thought that you might like this:

A Brain Scientist With A 'Stroke Of Insight' : NPR

A brain scientist has a stroke, loses function of her cognitive function and has an experience of the divine but is able to describe it in a very scientific, matter of fact way. The other thing is that sometimes trying to understand all of the steps completely rationally and cognitively is coming at them in the wrong way, IMO. A lot of it is a more right-brain exercise— at least for me.

[littlefish]

It's a power I draw off of, not one that hovers over me and decides how the universe is to be ordered. It's the hum behind the evolving universe.

I think along similar lines. The lack of a definition of a higher power in AA has given me free reign to eliminate ideas such as a conscious deity. Yet, because of this lack of definition, someone else may choose exactly that same idea as the basis of their faith....

I went into AA as a person who vigorously rejects organized religion due to having negative experiences with it. That experience meant that I rejected a great deal about religion and spirituality at a young age and essentially have lived most of my life without spirituality.

The interesting thing about working on the steps and particularly 2 and 3 is that I approached spirituality on my own terms and began a process of seeking. That process took me to places I never would have visited before, such as learning about Buddhism, meditation and looking at sacred scriptures far outside of my own "faith". I am intrigued by the whole process because, unlike the religious teaching of my own background, I've given myself the freedom and permission so to speak, to find my own faith. And, none of this would have ever started without step 2, or AA.

I can't say what my belief is, I certainly haven't finished seeking.

My sponsor reminds me that I don't have to define it all for myself all at once, either. That I can return to step two and deepen my understanding in the coming years.

[fashion33]

Thanks Clay for this post. I am agnostic and new to recovery, questioning how the 12 steps can help. I know that the definition of God can be different for everyone, but I still worry that many people in AA will define God in a way that I don't (a religious way), and there will be too much emphasis on this. I also worry that I would be judged because my drinking problem is not as severe as others; I fear being laughed at like you were! Its nice to know there are people in a similar situations trying to find ways to stop drinking, and that there are other options than AA.

[ClayTheScribe]

Originally Posted by fashion33

Thanks Clay for this post. I am agnostic and new to recovery, questioning how the 12 steps can help. I know that the definition of God can be different for everyone, but I still worry that many people in AA will define God in a way that I don't (a religious way), and there will be too much emphasis on this. I also worry that I would be judged because my drinking problem is not as severe as others; I fear being laughed at like you were! Its nice to know there are people in a similar situations trying to find ways to stop drinking, and that there are other options than AA.

Well it's good to know too that I'm not alone. Just be careful where in this forum you question the 12 steps. The people on the Secular boards are pretty cool and easy-going, but some people on the Alcoholism and 12-step boards can get pretty defensive if you question their "way."

Most people in the AA meeting I went seemed to define God along religious lines, except for at least one. I'm still skeptical about being converted but others here have assured me that shouldn't be a main concern and they're probably right. There is a prayer to God at the end of most AA meetings, or at least the one I went to and you may decide to just sit it out as I did.

Unlike my dual diagnosis meeting, I never got the sense that I would be laughed at for how non-severe my alcohol problem was in AA. People laughed, but it was with the person because they could relate to what the person was saying and it was healthy. My dual diagnosis meeting was with people who have addiction and mental health problems, more severe than mine, and that was just one guy who was having a bad day.

I think AA actually might come easier to you since you're an agnostic since you're still somewhat open to the possibility of a God, but I might be wrong. If you're apprehensive about AA, then I would first recommend checking out LifeRing, SMARTRecovery and Rational Response, and also find yourself a therapist who specializes in addiction counseling, no matter how severe or not severe your problem. I have nothing against a spiritual approach like AA, but I think one needs to have a scientific, medical approach to addiction as well.

Welcome to SR. Keep posting. There's a lot of great and helpful people around here.

Thanks,
Clay

[shockozulu]

Just a quick reminder that this forum is for those who are taking a secular approach to the twelve steps. Thanks to all of you for the great posts.