Atheists and AA

[spittake]

Originally Posted by digderidoo

once i replaced the word GOD with Group of Drunks into step 3, it then became simple.

Am I the only one who was completely unwilling to turn my will and my life over to the care of the people in the rooms?

I love the part in Bill's Story where he says, "I was not an atheist. Few people really are, for that means blind faith in the strange proposition that this universe originated in a cipher and aimlessly rushes nowhere." (p.13, 4th Edition)

That so perfectly describes my beliefs. Whew, what a stumbling block!

[ClayTheScribe]

Thanks guys,

I appreciate your advice/lectures ;-P I'm just not ready for something like AA and I may never be. I'm just not comfortable finding a "God of my understanding" now because I can't come up with a tangible concept of what I consider a God simply because that word has a lot of meaning and connontations to me that don't align with my personal spiritual beliefs. Again, I didn't mean to attack 12-step as I know it works great for many, but I can see I stepped on some toes, for which I apologize. And no, I honestly don't think going to another meeting would change my mind at this point. Maybe after I exhaust all other options, I'll try AA. But for now, no thanks.

Thanks,

Clay

[ClayTheScribe]

Originally Posted by spittake

Am I the only one who was completely unwilling to turn my will and my life over to the care of the people in the rooms?

I love the part in Bill's Story where he says, "I was not an atheist. Few people really are, for that means blind faith in the strange proposition that this universe originated in a cipher and aimlessly rushes nowhere." (p.13, 4th Edition)

That so perfectly describes my beliefs. Whew, what a stumbling block!

To answer that, I don't think the universe was ever "created," it just is. The universe expands, then retracts into a singularity, and when the pressure is too great, it explodes again into a whole new universe and does that until infinity. But it's certainly easier to say there's am omnipotent being that created it all out from nothing. They're both fantastical ways of explaining something that is too great for our minds to comprehend.

But that's just what I think (not follow in blind faith, as I'll wait for science to unravel that mystery).

[digderidoo]

Originally Posted by clay

Maybe after I exhaust all other options, I'll try AA

Can i ask you Clay, have you been to a meeting? Just wondering whether you're trying to work it all out before you've been to one.

It may also be of benefit to see if there are any agnostic/atheist groups in your area.

Paul

[ClayTheScribe]

Originally Posted by digderidoo

Can i ask you Clay, have you been to a meeting? Just wondering whether you're trying to work it all out before you've been to one.

It may also be of benefit to see if there are any agnostic/atheist groups in your area.

Paul

I went to an AA meeting on Friday. I just don't think it's for me. I'm not interested in trying to find my concept of "God" to fit with a program. I'm not putting down AA or anything, I just didn't feel comfortable there. I just want to focus on my recovery without getting into all that right now. I'm going to LifeRing, which are secular recovery meetings. And I didn't find anything online about atheist AA groups in my area (though I did find this interesting article: Alcoholics Anonymous Not As Helpful as Secular Alternatives | Friendly Atheist by Hemant Mehta) Maybe when I exhaust all efforts I'll approach AA again. Right now I'm just gonna go to the LifeRing meetings and meet with my therapist.

Thanks,

Clay

[digderidoo]

Originally Posted by clay

Maybe when I exhaust all efforts I'll approach AA again. Right now I'm just gonna go to the LifeRing meetings and meet with my therapist.

AA does not have a monopoly on getting sober IMO. You have to find what works for you. The two secular forums here certainly helped me and have become a great tool in my recovery. I do now use AA as i find it now works for me, but i have certainly gone through months where AA didn't help, and it was mainly down to the God concept that i was put off from it.

Paul

[FightingIrish]

I wish you well in your recovery. Whatever gets you sober, right?

Originally Posted by ClayTheScribe

I went to an AA meeting on Friday. I just don't think it's for me. I'm not interested in trying to find my concept of "God" to fit with a program. I'm not putting down AA or anything, I just didn't feel comfortable there. I just want to focus on my recovery without getting into all that right now. I'm going to LifeRing, which are secular recovery meetings. And I didn't find anything online about atheist AA groups in my area (though I did find this interesting article: Alcoholics Anonymous Not As Helpful as Secular Alternatives | Friendly Atheist by Hemant Mehta) Maybe when I exhaust all efforts I'll approach AA again. Right now I'm just gonna go to the LifeRing meetings and meet with my therapist.

Thanks,

Clay

[littlefish]

As always, there are lots of pro and con discussions about AA here.
It's true that acceptance of a higher power is incorporated into the steps, but AA makes it clear that you and only you define what that higher power is.

People very frequently reject the steps in AA because they assume that firstly, God is defined in AA. That is not the case. Secondly, people often assume that all of the traditional attributes used to describe God in organized religions is how AA defines God. But, if you go back to the first point I've made, that is not the case either, because God is not defined in AA.

The big book goes further and distances itself from God as a deity, and uses the term: higher power.

I'm just not comfortable finding a "God of my understanding" now because I can't come up with a tangible concept of what I consider a God simply because that word has a lot of meaning and connontations to me that don't align with my personal spiritual beliefs.

This sounds very similar to my experience: I reject the meanings and connotations attached to God that I was taught in a religious elementary school.
Your statement is intriguing though, because you mention having your own personal spiritual beliefs.
I am active in AA and have a very personal spiritual belief that is of my own formulation.
It is drawn from a variety of sources including Buddhist thought, and doesn't clash with the 12 step program. That said, there are many athiests in AA because I frequently hear them announce this in meetings, and this is accepted, at least in the meetings I attend.

Of course AA is not for everyone and it sounds like you already have a program that works for you. As others have said: whatever keeps you sober!

[McGowdog]

I agree that God is NOT defined in the A.A. program. In fact, the book says something to the effect that this "God" cannot be fully defined nor comprehended.

Whether you're an atheist or a believer, it's very important to get the place of God is NOT first. God isn't. God t'aint. That's the 1st Step in recovery. The 1st Step is me... my life without God. How am I doing now running my life on my own power? How am I at playing God? Look on page 52 (64 of 1st) in you need.

Then at some point in my 2nd Step, I draw my attention to "Is this all there is?" At this point, I don't need to define or comprehend the "Infinite", but need only ponder it. If this is all there is, God is limited... for me. Thus NOT God.

I need only ponder those things. Or not even that. I need only sit with those thoughts.

This program (12 Step) is not about analysis (although that's at times useful) or pontification. It's about experience.

[ananda]

My expereince was that when i came to the god is everything or god is nothing....my expereince showed that god was nothing...and from their i went on to practice the 12 steps within that framework...

[ClayTheScribe]

I thank you for all your posts, but frankly I'm still confused. I understand God or higher power could be anything, like electricity, but giving your life over to electricity can't keep you sober. And why must you feel/admit you're powerless? I understand that's what addiction is, but it seems the 12 steps are predicated on that. Can I not feel empowered to stop drinking?

As far as my spiritual beliefs go, I believe I have a higher self, or my spirit or essence, that inhabits my soul and that once I die I review my life and reincarnate. I believe my spirit is part of a mass consciousness, or life force, but it is not a creator nor an omniscient being with remote power over living beings. Living beings must realize who they really are and use that life force to create, destroy, heal, save, etc. I do not believe this life force or mass consciousness has power over me like a God but that I have the power to draw from it.

How can I incorporate those beliefs into the 12 steps?

[SelfSeeking]

Hi Clay, I try to avoid these discussions, to be honest, because when I was where you are they always felt like everything everyone said was paradoxical. None of it made any sense.

I do not believe in an omniscient creator god. My sense of my higher power came to me while I was sitting doing deep breathing/trying to meditate. There was a sense that the barrier between myself and the rest of the universe was only my misperception, that whether willing or not, whatever "I" am is part of everything else. There is a greater good and a power greater than myself. I am not able to control the world/other people's actions/my body's reaction to alcohol. The greater good involves me, sober. I can absolutely fight it, but much like getting tossed from a raft into whitewater, I'll sink. The only way to keep breathing is to flip over on my back, float, and go with the flow. For me, with drinking, admitting that I am powerless over alcohol means that I am powerless after I take the first drink. That last bit will get you into a lot of "how many angels on the head of a pin" type discussions, btw, so beware.

I identify as atheist. My sponsor is a minister in training and sees no problem with how I work my program.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by ClayTheScribe

Can I not feel empowered to stop drinking?

...How can I incorporate those beliefs into the 12 steps?

Those are good valid questions, especially for this subforum. I don't know how to do the later without the former. But some in here can and do.

You said something about electricity being a Higher Power. I'd think that would be fine, but I wouldn't select Line AC that comes from Excel Engergy. That burning of coal to produce steam to turn a turbine to produce energy is somewhat man-made. The transmission of it is what really makes it man-made. I would be looking into a producer of electricity like Static. Static electricity is caused by tribocharge, or contact and separation of dissimilar materials which causes a chemical bond, then resultant presence of energy on both materials when separated. A person can produce static electricity, but so can a cat, a snail, or a leaf blowing in the wind. Wind, Water and Fire are above human power.

Something that you can connect with and access would get you on your way, if you want to go the route of the steps.

If you can stay sober on any kind of thought process, then why the steps at all? If you cannot make that happen, then I can only suggest having an open-mind when trying the steps.

[SelfSeeking]

I never got the electricity-as-higher-power concept either... I mean, a tidal wave is more powerful than me, an elephant is more powerful than me, my professors are more powerful than me. None of those things have the power to get me or keep me sober. I just don't get it. *shrug*

[Rob B]

Clay,
Do you know if you are alcoholic? There are all types of drinkers, not all of them are alcoholic. Do yourself a favor and find out what you are. At any rate it seems like you are still questioning your relationship with alcohol.
It appears you are Setting parameters around what you will and won't do, time constraints, etc...I get it. Sobriety might be nice, but it will sure be an inconvenience to your regular schedule of doing things your way.That's the vibe I get from your posts, maybe I'm misunderstanding, wouldn't be the first time, however, I did identify with some of your stuff because That's pretty much how I felt until it was done for good.

I hope you are not alcoholic for your sake, if you are there are many solutions available at SR that may be beneficial to you. However, early recovery is not a hobby to be pursued against the backdrop of managing your life status quo. If I can help you find your truth feel free to pm me.

[NoelleR]

Hey There Bubba ---

I just thought it was time for me to add a wee bit more of my ES&H to this thread, as I have worked the 12 steps of AA/NA as an atheist.....


1) "...I'm still confused. I understand God or higher power could be anything, like electricity, but giving your life over to electricity can't keep you sober..."

An absolutely valid and timely point....just a brief reminder....: never worry about a step till you're there (LOL).....I agree; I always thought the idea electricity or a doorknob (jeesh!) to be condescending and ignorant statements made by folks who don't understand atheism atall....just remember, Step 2 only says to come to believe that there is a power greater than my self (and when I walked thru the doors of AA, that was just about everything and everyone); it does NOT say we have to define what/who that HP is....and, although many AAer's say a prayer where they 'turn their will and life over to the god of their understanding, Step 3 does NOT say we have to do that NOW; it only requires that we make a decision to do so.......which is all I did, and then I immediately moved on to Step 4.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

2) "... powerless?...it seems the 12 steps are predicated on that. Can I not feel empowered to stop drinking?..."

Absolutely, you can be...and are empowered...to stop; if folks were not empowered to stop, then nobody would get sober or find recovery---it's that pesky 'staying stopped' that's usually the problem. For me, the 'powerlessness' was when I put alcohol, or any other drugs, in my system; I was truly powerless to stop till.....whoops, here comes my alergic reaction to said substances.............handcuffs!!!!.....LOLOL

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

3) "...As far as my spiritual beliefs go, I believe I have a higher self, or my spirit or essence, that inhabits my soul..."

That's the ticket!!!! I know AA, and AAer's say we can choose anything for our higher power/god/whatever, as long as it not ourselves.....Well, that's exactly what I did, and it's worked for 23+ years.....Of course, I didn't use myself as I was upon entering the doors of AA; I used the person I would be tomorrow as long as I did not pick up today.....etc., etc., etc., yadda, yadda, yadda.... (o:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

4) "...How can I incorporate those beliefs into the 12 steps?..."

I can't tell you how to incorporate your specific beliefs into AA's 12 steps; all I can do is show you how I incorporated mine.....as an ardent atheist who has managed to work the 12 steps in my own way, regardless of what some others may have thought or even said.....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, Clay, rather than worrying about future steps, start on that first step and see if you can't see any powerlessness in your drinking/drugging and any unmanageableness in your life, probably stemming from said drinking/using.....I know that if I had had any power over my drinking/drugging while I was in my addiction---if my life had been manageable.....well, heck....!....I wouldn't have needed any of those steps at all.....but then, that's just moi............. (o:

I'm keeping positive thoughts put there for you, Clay.


NoelleR

[SelfSeeking]

You can be an atheist, an alcoholic (a REAL one, lol), and recover through AA. (Rob.) This subforum is for people who are following that path. We do exist and it is ok to feel drawn to AA, but conflicted because of the G word. It is fine to think things through "out loud" here.

[ClayTheScribe]

[QUOTE=Rob B;2293360]Clay,
Do you know if you are alcoholic? There are all types of drinkers, not all of them are alcoholic. Do yourself a favor and find out what you are.[QUOTE]

I've just been going by the medical definition of an alcoholic which is someone who can't stop drinking despite alcohol's negative consequences in his or her life. In that regard my drinking was cutting the efficacy of my psych meds, making me depressed most times after drinking, not to mention making me late. I also grew a strong tolerance to alcohol. I drank 3-4 times a week with the intent to get drunk. Have I ever got to a point where I woke up and started drinking and stayed drunk throughout the day? No. But my habit was presenting enough negatives into my life that I had to stop. I don't need to question what alcohol can do to me, I'm simply questioning the steps as an atheist.

At any rate it seems like you are still questioning your relationship with alcohol.
It appears you are Setting parameters around what you will and won't do, time constraints, etc...I get it. Sobriety might be nice, but it will sure be an inconvenience to your regular schedule of doing things your way.

Alcohol was an inconvenience to my regular schedule of doing things my way, especially when I had to hide it. I think sobriety is the better choice. I don't know where I'll be in 10 or 5 days with my sobriety, but today I didn't drink.

That's the vibe I get from your posts, maybe I'm misunderstanding, wouldn't be the first time, however, I did identify with some of your stuff because That's pretty much how I felt until it was done for good.

Misunderstandings are bound to happen when all you can cull about a person is from a few posts. Now you have more of the facts and you can PM me to know more.

I hope you are not alcoholic for your sake, if you are there are many solutions available at SR that may be beneficial to you. However, early recovery is not a hobby to be pursued against the backdrop of managing your life status quo. If I can help you find your truth feel free to pm me.

I don't know that labels matter so much as knowing I have a problem with alcohol and therefore I have to stay clean. Recovery is not a hobby for me, it's been hard but necessary because I am graduating from college next month, I'm doing an internship Monday-Friday, working on the weekends and taking two classes. I can no longer afford to have alcohol continue to disrupt my life. Will that mean I drink in 30 days? I hope not. I know it's a cliche but I'm really trying to take it a day at a time because if I overwhelm myself, I'll want to drink. Can you explain what you meant further by "However, early recovery is not a hobby to be pursued against the backdrop of managing your life status quo." I'm sorry if I gave the impression it was a hobby, it hasn't been that way to me. I'm just questioning AA and 12-step with atheists, but of course expect defensive comments. I'll just sift through to the helpful ones.

Thanks,

Clayton

[littlefish]

I thank you for all your posts, but frankly I'm still confused. I understand God or higher power could be anything, like electricity, but giving your life over to electricity can't keep you sober. And why must you feel/admit you're powerless? I understand that's what addiction is, but it seems the 12 steps are predicated on that. Can I not feel empowered to stop drinking?

The way I have understood it, and I may be wrong, is that in AA the word powerless is used specifically in relation to alcohol. I don't think the idea is that we are simply powerless as human beings. The stress is on "We are powerfless in the face of alcohol".

I understand completely your reservations in relation to the connection of God to the 12 steps.
My approach has been to understand that AA and the 12 steps were borne out of a religious movement, but I can apply it any way I wish in my own recovery. (AA later disassociated itself from this movement and concentrated specifically on alcohol addiction, yet continued to use religiously-inspired ideas in the AA program). Another key element in the AA philosophy comes from Jungian psychology and the concept that a spiritual awakening is important to the process of recovery. Again, this spiritual awakening is not defined.
I realize the religious connection turns a lot of people off, but the methodology of the 12 steps can be very effective, and it is no surprise that for example the secular Minnesota method is based on the 12 steps.
In my area, there are no secular alternatives to AA. So, AA is all I have, but I am content to use it because I find that it includes a lot of activities I find useful: speakers, conventions, workshops, etc.
I also use an addiction treatment center where I have a therapist, so I don't restrict myself solely to the AA program.

[paulmh]

With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves.

We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us.

These quotes are from the Big Book. They don't seem that different from what you've said yourself. Also I would question whether or not someone who believes in reincarnation is an atheist. I seem to remember that reincarnation is a metaphysical rather than a physical belief.

Ultimately all these things are pretty dry and academic. It's our experience of recovery which is living. I find it hard to describe what "Higher Power" means to me. You seem much more specific in your beliefs. I would've thought that would've made it easier rather than harder?

[Rob B]

Originally Posted by SelfSeeking

You can be an atheist, an alcoholic (a REAL one, lol), and recover through AA. (Rob.) This subforum is for people who are following that path. We do exist and it is ok to feel drawn to AA, but conflicted because of the G word. It is fine to think things through "out loud" here.

Check yourself, your comment seems to be based on past experience with me, and has little to do with what I actually posted. I would like to see Clay happy, content and sober, I was offering to help. I could care less if he uses AA, God, or secular methods.

I am mindful of what forum this is and respect the belief systems here.

[McGowdog]

Welcome back, Rob.

In any case, you probably won't see us much over here in this subforum. There's not much reason for me to be over here, except in the fact that we have a couple of simiarities. We both seek some form of a 12 step solution of recovery, and we both are unable to "define" or "comprehend" some form of a Higher Power, even if we wanted to.

I'm learning that we all have to at times face and acknowlege our current agnosticism or perhaps our current atheistic beliefs. It's a wonderful tool to use and starting point when faced with our 1st Step. The 12 Step Recovery subforum over in the Alcoholism section is full of people who were going down a road that was anything but godly... so we're not necessarily a bunch of experts with regards to oganized religion in the first place. But if any of us were, I think we'd have to be truthful to admit that it wasn't getting us too far in the "sober" department. No... we had to start over on a new foundation... one withOUT God.

[digderidoo]

Originally Posted by clay

As far as my spiritual beliefs go, I believe I have a higher self, or my spirit or essence, that inhabits my soul and that once I die I review my life and reincarnate. I believe my spirit is part of a mass consciousness, or life force, but it is not a creator nor an omniscient being with remote power over living beings. Living beings must realize who they really are and use that life force to create, destroy, heal, save, etc. I do not believe this life force or mass consciousness has power over me like a God but that I have the power to draw from it.

How can I incorporate those beliefs into the 12 steps?

I have a similar sort of belief system to this.

For me incorporating this belief into step 3 means making a commitment to a spiritual path, i can either step onto that path or step off. Stepping on means i am making a commitment to step 3.

The AA program, helps to heal the physical, the mental and the spiritual...whatever that spiritual belief system is.

But as i have said before you seem to be trying to work it all out at once before jumping into AA. Beyond step 3, i have not got to the point that where i wonder how to put that belief system into the rest of the steps. But i don't worry about it because the AA keeps me sober. If the AA is not for you, then find something that works for you, i do wonder however whether you want AA to work for you as you keep asking these questions.

Paul

[ClayTheScribe]

Originally Posted by paulmh

These quotes are from the Big Book. They don't seem that different from what you've said yourself.

"With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves."

OK, that sounds like it could fit with my spiritual beliefs in that I think the life force that flows through everything is greater than me, but its power is expressed through living beings. It's a power I draw off of, not one that hovers over me and decides how the universe is to be ordered. It's the hum behind the evolving universe.

"We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us."

I don't expect to find a He or a God or an omniscient being inside of me except maybe my higher self.

Also I would question whether or not someone who believes in reincarnation is an atheist. I seem to remember that reincarnation is a metaphysical rather than a physical belief.

Reincarnation is a belief seen throughout many faiths and philosophies, including among non-theistic Buddhists. Reincarnation simply says you as a spirit live more than one physical life. God has nothing to do with it in that I don't believe an omniscient being allows reincarnation to happen and chooses my life path for me. Atheism simply means you don't believe in a God, though some have turned it into a religion with strict beliefs only in what's rational, scientific and what they can see in front of them, therefore no beliefs in reincarnation or an after life and I'm friends with some of these people. And I'm not an agnostic because I have no doubt in my beliefs that there is no creator. I have a different understanding/beliefs about the universe and existence. Mine just doesn't include a creator. I hope that makes sense. If my beliefs don't make me a true atheist according to zealous atheists' beliefs, then fine, call me whatever you want. Those are my beliefs as of this moment.

Ultimately all these things are pretty dry and academic. It's our experience of recovery which is living. I find it hard to describe what "Higher Power" means to me. You seem much more specific in your beliefs. I would've thought that would've made it easier rather than harder?

You would think so right? haha I suppose I can be overly analytical sometimes.

I had an illuminating conversation today with a co-worker who's in NA and AA and he's been clean 15 months. He shot some scenarios at me and asked how I would cope with them, just on my own. I had to think. Basically he was suggesting that I would need a higher power to cope. I said I would go see my therapist and he said the therapist could be a power greater than me, and that I should just start getting used to looking at what could be powers greater than me, but not to consider another person as God. I agreed that would put too much pressure on said person. Then I suggested I could use truth as my higher power, but he said the problem with that is it's negotiable. There's many different truths, half truths and partial truths. I suggested that journalism is a power greater than myself I believe in, at which point he just said that he can't understand it for me, it has to be a God of my understanding. I think I've just been getting too hung up on the G word and not focusing on the "power greater than yourself" part. I'm kind of split on what I should choose as my higher power: the universe, the life force/mass consciousness, journalism, my higher self, etc. He also told me the higher self becomes a problem as a higher power because it's still relying on yourself and I believe my higher self lives through me.

Nonetheless, I can accept Step 1, that in the face of alcohol, I am powerless, either because I always have to get drunk when I drink--and deal with a hangover and depression the next day--or if I drink a few, I feel depressed right when I stop drinking, or simply that I'm powerless over the chemical reaction alcohol has with my meds, which is it makes them less effective and makes me more depressed and anxious. I understand that I was powerless over my drinking and what it did to me and that because I was having to sneak alcohol in the house and was late to work and the internship and its effect on my mood was making my life less manageable. I can't say that my life was in enough of a tail spin that my whole life was unmanageable due to my drinking, but my drinking had become unmanageable to where I couldn't even manage to have a few drinks with friends and it not create a problem. I'm sure with what I just said people will want to say I'm in denial, which is fine, but I felt I already went through the denial phase last month when I was trying to manage my drinking, come up with excuses for why I needed to drink, tell myself I could just have a few drinks around people because I don't drink as much around others, and it just didn't work. I feel that I'm there and I understand Step 1. When should/can one start Step 2 or do I need to process it further?

I appreciate your continued feedback everyone. This forum has been such a source of support, inspiration, challenging questions, challenging answers and kinship.

Thanks,

Clayton

[ClayTheScribe]

Originally Posted by digderidoo

I have a similar sort of belief system to this.

For me incorporating this belief into step 3 means making a commitment to a spiritual path, i can either step onto that path or step off. Stepping on means i am making a commitment to step 3.

The AA program, helps to heal the physical, the mental and the spiritual...whatever that spiritual belief system is.

But as i have said before you seem to be trying to work it all out at once before jumping into AA. Beyond step 3, i have not got to the point that where i wonder how to put that belief system into the rest of the steps. But i don't worry about it because the AA keeps me sober. If the AA is not for you, then find something that works for you, i do wonder however whether you want AA to work for you as you keep asking these questions.

Paul

I'm definitely trying to figure it all out before I go in. I have a tendency of doing that. I think that comes from being a journalist; we want the whole picture and now. I know now that I should just focus on Step 1. I just want to give AA a chance because I know it has helped many people and people here and elsewhere have stressed that I give it a try. I suppose what I'm battling with is whether a "rational," scientific approach ie, CBT therapy, LifeRing would be better or if my alcohol abuse stemmed from a spiritual problem, or whether a spiritual path/answer will keep me sober. I'm willing to try it just to see if it works, it's just my stubborn brain's getting caught up on the God part. But for now I'll just try to work on Step 1, which I'm still wondering how I work it out. Is it simply admitting you're powerless over alcohol and your life is unmanageable or do you have to do more?