Is using AA creating another dependency?

[digderidoo]

I started this thread in the secular section, as it has been locked i feel it's better to post it here.

Hi my secular friends,

This is something that i have been thinking about since reading a link posted on a recent thread, which mentions this.

My main worry with using AA is that i am becoming dependant on it. I see some of the old timers and wonder whether this is what i want.

I wondered what others thought here. If it is creating another dependency is this healthy or unhealthy?

Thanks, Paul

[mistycshore]

What do you mean by dependent? Like emotional dependence, which means seeing your emotional well-being as linked with someone(s) else, generally isn't considered a good thing.

Or do you mean "I'm afraid I'll get drunk if I don't go to a meeting today," kind of dependence?

I hear you about old-timers. I've sometimes just wanted to scream at them "GET A LIFE ALREADY!" But the reason AA is so large and long-lasting is because it promotes dependence on AA. Whether or not that's a good thing (obviously, some people flourish) would be a person's own call to make, I think. Are you most disturbed by the idea of sounding/becoming like the old-timer stereotype or is it something else?

[keithj]

Originally Posted by mistycshore

But the reason AA is so large and long-lasting is because it promotes dependence on AA.

Your experience differs from my own, mistycshore. I attend meetings for a couple of reasons. One is because I absolutely love a hard core solution based meeting. It feeds my spiritual growth, I have a bond with the people, and I have a responsibility. I also go to some sicker meetings to carry a solution. A message of recovery. In those meetings, I do see a lot of dependence on meetings by people with all different lengths of sobriety.

But that's not recovery. Not by a long shot. The steps of AA promote dependence on a higher power. It flat out states that reliance on things human is bound to fail.

[digderidoo]

Originally Posted by KeithJ

The steps of AA promote dependence on a higher power. It flat out states that reliance on things human is bound to fail.

Where does it state that KeithJ ?

One understanding of a higher power is G O D (Group Of Drunks). There are many in the AA who use the group as a higher power. In my initial stages my higher power certainly was other alcoholics, or in other words other humans. It's only recently that i feel a sense of spirituality, but i can certainly identify with someone who uses the group of recovering alcoholics as their higher power. I believe there are atheists here who do the same.

Paul

[Pagekeeper]

I was dependent upon AA my first time around. I say that because I went to meetings, did service work, but the entire time I was holding on by a thread. I wanted to drink even though I was sober and in AA. My commitments to AA were the only thing keeping me sober. Once I let go of those commitments, I drank. It was inevitable.

Today I go to meeting because I want to go. Not because I'm obligated or feel my sobriety is threatened if I don't go. Today I seek a spiritual way of life because I want to, not because I'm afraid I'll drink. AA today for me feels effortless. That doesn't mean I don't put effort into it, but it feels effortless because it is not a burden, it is not an obligation, it is not something I do out of fear. It is a joy.

[digderidoo]

Originally Posted by mistycshore

What do you mean by dependent? Like emotional dependence, which means seeing your emotional well-being as linked with someone(s) else, generally isn't considered a good thing.

Or do you mean "I'm afraid I'll get drunk if I don't go to a meeting today," kind of dependence?

I guess i mean your first suggestion, becoming emotionally dependant.

Originally Posted by "mistycshore

I hear you about old-timers. I've sometimes just wanted to scream at them "GET A LIFE ALREADY!" But the reason AA is so large and long-lasting is because it promotes dependence on AA. Whether or not that's a good thing (obviously, some people flourish) would be a person's own call to make, I think. Are you most disturbed by the idea of sounding/becoming like the old-timer stereotype or is it something else?

I'm not disturbed about becoming an old timer, but i do see many of them who still rely on going to many meetings, even with many years sobriety.

I guess at the moment i'm looking at the steps to help me recover, and at the moment have created another dependency with the AA, but i do worry i'm going to need alot of meetings once i've done the steps. That said my work in getting the steps done will take years, i'm not like some who do them in a matter of months.

Paul

[keithj]

Originally Posted by digderidoo

Where does it state that KeithJ ?

"we simply do not stop drinking so long as we place dependence upon other people ahead of dependence on God", BB pg98, 1st ed.

Take God to mean anything you want, especially on the secular 12 step forum. I know what you mean about the group being the higher power. But isn't there some magic imparted to the group that is greater than the sum of its human members?

[digderidoo]

Originally Posted by keithj

"we simply do not stop drinking so long as we place dependence upon other people ahead of dependence on God", BB pg98, 1st ed.

Take God to mean anything you want, especially on the secular 12 step forum. I know what you mean about the group being the higher power. But isn't there some magic imparted to the group that is greater than the sum of its human members?

Thanks Keith, i've not noticed that before. As regards your question about magic imparted to the group, i'm unsure at the moment i guess, sorry that's not really an answer, but that magic to me is the wisdom within the group.

Paul

[mistycshore]

Originally Posted by keithj

"we simply do not stop drinking so long as we place dependence upon other people ahead of dependence on God", BB pg98, 1st ed.

Take God to mean anything you want, especially on the secular 12 step forum.

Gosh, thanks.

I know what you mean about the group being the higher power. But isn't there some magic imparted to the group that is greater than the sum of its human members?

Magic? It would better to rephrase that, perhaps beginning with the words "I believe." Also, "imparted" means that someone or something did the imparting - again, you are talking perhaps about your own beliefs and not universal truth.

[mistycshore]

Originally Posted by keithj

Your experience differs from my own, mistycshore.

Interesting. I've been to several hundred meetings and served in various capacities, and I'd definitely have to say that much of the strength in AA is due to the promotion of dependence on AA. Face it, if sobriety is granted only temporarily and under the condition that AA members continually teach AA newcomers about AA, that's promoting dependence on AA. Can't you see how that is?

I attend meetings for a couple of reasons. One is because I absolutely love a hard core solution based meeting.

Why am I not surprised?

It feeds my spiritual growth, I have a bond with the people, and I have a responsibility. I also go to some sicker meetings to carry a solution. A message of recovery. In those meetings, I do see a lot of dependence on meetings by people with all different lengths of sobriety.

So there are sicker meetings and hard core meetings? And the people in the sicker meetings are sicker than the people in the hard core meetings . . . in your opinion, of course?

But that's not recovery. Not by a long shot.

I guess I don't worry overly much about what might or might not be recovery in other people. I'm really a big fan of letting people decide and define such things for themselves.

[/U]The steps of AA promote dependence on a higher power. It flat out states that reliance on things human is bound to fail.

Then "higher power" in your mind, based on your beliefs, can be nothing but supernatural, and if someone is "imparting" magic - you are insisting that higher power equals a deity - at least the gist I'm getting here. Which is all fine and good, but a secular board seems an odd place to be insisting on your own, obviously non secular, beliefs. Don't you think?

[mistycshore]

Originally Posted by digderidoo

I guess i mean your first suggestion, becoming emotionally dependant.

I'm not disturbed about becoming an old timer, but i do see many of them who still rely on going to many meetings, even with many years sobriety.

l

I think loneliness plays into that, and I'm glad lonely old timers have a place to be. I guess making emotional connections and sharing interests outside recovery settings is important to me for the reasons you bring up.

[keithj]

Wow. I have little desire to start going item by item here. There's too much misunderstanding and assumption to begin. As it regards the original post, people that are recovered as the result of the 12 steps, myself included, don't usually feel dependence on AA meetings to stay recovered.

I apply the spiritual principles of AA in my life and I stay recovered. Does that imply dependence on AA? Dunno. It's all semantics to me.

[mistycshore]

I'm thinking I could have reworded things to make them less confrontational. You have my apologies, Keith. There is no doubt in my mind that AA promotes reliance on AA (and, as I said, step 12 pretty much proves it). But whether or not that dependence is good or bad, I cannot say. Friends?

[ananda]

mm..well to the first question

i do think dependancy on AA is often better than dependancy on alchohol..however i don't see it as the goal.

I found it very helpful to attend many meetings during the first year and a half of sobriety as it helped me to have others support in a very daily and strong way. I am attending less meetings now.

I attend meetings because it helps me to remember to stay focused on a continuing process the steps involve in my life, and also as a reminder to me of where i came from and also so that if others come in who don't do god they will have someone they can talk to

I expect i will go to a meeting a week the rest of my life and more if times are dificult. Well actually, i expect there will be periods of time where I may not attend at all due to cercumstances....When i got sober the first time i was many old timers who attended only once a week and many who attended only 3 or 4 times a year (and often still sponsored a number of people) and also some who had periods of many months where meetings just didn't fit their lives.

Those people utilized all the other tools available in AA and the steps to stay sober. I am a big believer this is a we program...won't go into that today, but it isn't dependancy that i see as the reason for this.

I don't attend many "hardcore" meetings as they simply don't support my recovery the way that the non-hard core meetings do, i accept that they work well for many. I also don't think of things as majic...magic or miricle for me just means that we don't know enough to see the cause effect relationship...it is still there wether i can see it or not

I guess at the moment i'm looking at the steps to help me recover, and at the moment have created another dependency with the AA, but i do worry i'm going to need alot of meetings once i've done the steps. That said my work in getting the steps done will take years, i'm not like some who do them in a matter of months.

related to alot of that dig...and i too work the steps slowly...my current sponsor is a little more hurry hurry and we "did the steps" in about 6 mos. However having done the steps before i am aware that we missed huge chunks of spiritual growth that can come for a more thoughtful and deep working of the steps...so i am approaching them from that standpoint now.

As i've said before, i am questioning the whole sponsorship thing as it exists today in my area....


thanks for posting

[mistycshore]

Originally Posted by ananda

I don't attend many "hardcore" meetings as they simply don't support my recovery the way that the non-hard core meetings do, i accept that they work well for many. I also don't think of things as majic...magic or miricle for me just means that we don't know enough to see the cause effect relationship...it is still there wether i can see it or not

I just wanted to say thanks especially for this paragraph. I think amazing things can happen when people pull together. I just don't attribute it to magic.

Also, I love your avatar. Every time I see it, my heart warms and I crack up at the same time.

[keithj]

Thanks Misty. No harm done at all. I'm tempted to explain my use of the word 'magic', but I'm doubtful that it would further the discussion.

I'm guessing that one of the big difficulties with working the 12 steps from a secular standpoint is the higher power issue. It might be the only difficulty. I didn't use the group as a higher power, so I'm just guessing how others have made that work. I just became to willing to believe because I had no other choice. The BB said all that was required was that willingness to believe. I took that at face value and had a spiritual awakening as the result of the 12 steps. YMMV.

[paulmh]

It's not dependence to participate fully in something. Do it today. See where it takes you.

[freya]

In my experience, it's possible to use/do anything in an unhealthy manner -- even things that are meant to be healing and healthy. For me, some questions that I find it helpful to consider when trying to determine which is which are:

Am I using it in a re-creational manner or an escapist manner? (If I'm using it in a re-creational manner, I can enjoy it and afterwards go back to other activites re-invogorated, refreshed and renewed. If I'm using it in an escapist manner, I get stuck in the excessive more-more-more place and resent having to "pull myself away" in order to take care of other important things in my life.)

Is it distracting from or limiting my abilitly to be present in and enjoy other important aspects of my life?

Is it compromising my desiire and/or my ability to fulfill my other responsibilities or to meet other commitments?

Is my involvement in/with helping to heal old/core wounds or is it aiding in ignoring, exacerbating, acting out of old/core wounds?

Also, personally, I find it helpful to answer these questions with the help of trusted, healthy friends.....becase, obviously, if I'm doing stuff in an unhealthy way, then I am probably going to have some difficulty seeing things as they are and being totally honest with myself.

freya

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by digderidoo

Where does it state that KeithJ

Keith gave a good answer. Another place where it states that... that comes to mind is

A. That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
B. That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
C. That God could and would if He were sought.

But let's look at the ABCs from the old Original Manuscript:

A. That you are alcoholic and cannot manage your own life.
B. That probably no human power can relieve your alcoholism.
C. That God can and will.

If I was going to be Secular about the 12 Steps, I'd key in on that word "probably".

Is using A.A. creating another dependency? Not for me. I go to my homegroup once per week on Monday night and to lunch on Friday.

That's not a dependency, but a "commitment". I am responsible for me! I have decided in. I have decided for myself that I will live. I will do each and every one of these steps. I do this from the place of betting God will show up, whether He/She/It does or not. I am merely willing to believe that this Power or this Force will do for me, what I cannot... remove the obsession from my mind, while I do the other steps.

But prior to this decision, I came from a place of No God. An athiest would have an easier time to start these 12 Steps than the believer... from what I hear.

Frank McKibbon, God rest his soul, came from the place of athiest, and said it was easier for him to choose... God tis, or God taint... than the believer who first has to conclude that God taint... to start over.

Step 1 always starts with me... and God Taint.

Does that make any sense?

[SugarScars]

I'm having major issues with NA now. I'm trying to get from it what I need, but I'm finding more and more that that is not possible. In fact, I feel censored and stifled in meetings. I feel like my spirituality has grown in leaps and bounds, but when I try to discuss my happiness and spirituality with other members, particularly old-timers, they tell me that I must be lying, to be so happy. They tell me that it is not possible, particularly because I am on Suboxone and am such a new-comer. When I point out that I am enjoying my career and am proud of my accomplishments, I get even more flack. They try to make me feel guilty for having these things, but instead I just feel very angry at their attempts. I've worked incredibly hard for what I have and I have endured hardship to get everything that I've gotten.

I am beginning to see why others have used the word "cult" in association with NA/AA. If I'm not allowed to be independently happy, without first seeking approval from others, then I would rather be dead.

Or just quit NA???

I've discussed my feelings with my therapist, and even she is shocked by them. It's like NA is this sacred thing that is not allowed to be criticized. In my opinion, it is good to think independently and to form informed opinions. I have attended hundreds, even thousands, of NA meetings and I am beginning to feel "turned off" by them for the reasons that I mentioned.

If it were about my Higher Power, I would not be upset. But sometimes I feel like it is more about getting approval from old-timers who enjoy having power over me. I'm anti- "abuse of power". (Yes, I do realize what I am saying here and it is intentional.)

This is not to say that ALL old-timers hold this intent. However, enough of them give me crap over being happy that I've got to wonder. I've even been criticized DURING A MEETING by an old-timer for sharing about my happiness. He called it "sharing silly sh*t" and said that I need to "shut up".

*WOW*

Apparently, everything is fine to share during meetings except for sincere positivity and happiness. God forbid that I be happier than some of the more miserable people in the rooms!!!

***Please keep in mind that all chapters of Narcotics Anonymous vary according to membership and the practice of principles.***

[mistycshore]

Sugar, I am glad you are happy! Hang on to that.

Maybe you could try a couple AA meetings to see if there is more open-mindedness in one of those groups (although some pitch fits about the difference between addiction or alcohol and addiction to any other substance)? Or SMART or one of the others? It so IRKS me when some blowhard in a meeting tries to censor what others share or tries to humiliate them for sharing it. The whole admonition against taking another man's inventory seems to go right over their heads!

It's interesting how the 12-step stuff has become a golden calf in the outside world. I was listening to a lecture in an abnormal psychology class. I like the professor a great deal; very intelligent man with an abundance of compassion. He went over all the different recovery options (good for him!), stated that the rate of success was identical for each (double good!), and then went on to glorify 12-step stuff. He flat out stated that perceptions that such groups are religious or cultish was misconceived. It was obvious he'd never attended a meeting, never read the literature, had no clue what *really* goes on and was lecturing from a place of ignorance - very out of character for him.

Anyway, I hope you don't let loudmouth know-it-all's keep you from getting what you need.

[McGowdog]

Hey SS. Glad you're getting some good results and glad that you've recognized that you've put something into it and received some good stuff from it.

I'm having this grace vs works discussion right now in another thread. On the one hand, some people really identify with this "grace... unearned gift" aspect of recovery, and I and the one who showed me his lineage pointed out to me the greatest statement of hope in the whole Big Book, "So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making."

So what does that tell me? If my troubles are of MY own making, I don't have to stay under yours or anybody elses thumb to get this deal!

I am free! Go out there and drink it up! (Recovery, that is! ) Tell that crusty old fart, "Who died and made you boss?" That or find a better meeting.

Realize that some people are just "entitled" to their pain and suffering. Some people don't want to be awakened from their sleep. Let em' sleep. It's uncomfortable for them to wake up. But realize it's also about what you can bring to the place. NA is a great place because you're in it. You're staying clean and sober no matter what those lumps do.

I think, personally, that's an attitude you can take. Hold onto what you've got... till you find someone who willingly accepts what you offer.

[meditation]

I think that step meetings are for people thinking about quitting or needing support to quit. After a point you either quit or go back out. If you remain clean and sober then at some point you don't need dependence on a meeting to remain in recovery. To me it is like needing surgery at the hospital and being admitted. Once I am healed I finally stop going to the doctor. I may revisit the doctor again if needed but I don't need to keep seeing him if I am well. I figure I will attend step meetings down the road just to remind myself of the pain and misery but my attendance probably will be sporadic. I have not attained sobriety by meetings so I doubt I will have to have them to stay clean. I go because it's mandated I go. I may feel different once I no longer have to "go" maybe my attitude will change then. But I feel wholly clean and recovered on my own merits. Nothing magic about it.. I just quit. It was about to destroy me so quitting was a good idea.

[digderidoo]

SS, it's a shame that your experience of meetings is negative. To be fair that's not my experience, many share positive stories of happiness. Now there are meetings in my locality that are negative, but they are in the minority and those i tend to stay away from.

Paul

[SugarScars]

Thanks, guys. I think I've just OD'ed on NA. I'm not going to relapse and I'm still quitting Suboxone within the next 6 months. I'll probably attend a bunch of meetings once I'm finished with treatment and I'll still attend my home group so that I can see my sponsor and help a newcomer. I believe in helping others. I do it for a living. It's just that I've overdone my meeting attendance and it's affecting me negatively. I'll be just fine once I get some music-making and art-making time back into my life. Thanks, again and I apologize for carrying such a negative message.