Can it be this simple? God, as I understand him.

[soontobehomeles]

The "GOD" aspect of AA is what scared me away from AA for many years and that has almost killed me. I attended my first meeting on Sunday, May 17th, 2009. Three days ago as I write this. (It's 5:00 AM and my insomnia is because I am going through my Last withdrawl. There will not be another.)

For more than forty years I have been unequivocly Athiestic. Man has created GOD or god to meet his own needs. Our world exists because of a series of changes that have occured slowly over billions of years.

Still I believe the concept of a god has been helpful to both Man and Mankind; I had even become jealous of those who could yield thier future to such a concept, especially if the result was sobreity. Still I had to find some "As I understand him" that would work for me.

"Group Of Drunks" was suggested to me and it will work just fine for step Two; Not so much for steps Three, Six, Seven or Eleven. Even if it did, I'm not sure I want to turn my future over to this "Group". Replacing a devotion to Vodka with a devotion to AA doesn't strike me as such a good idea.

"Higher Power" in step two is easy. Two people can do more than one and enough can elect a president or stop a war; Clearly there is a higher power than just me (or you). Besides, In step one we admitted that we've got a problem we can't solve. Step two seems to me, is agreeing that it can be solved, with help.

There is life on earth because changes occuring over lots of time made it happen; Why won't that work?

God = Change over time = creation?
Possibly simply: god = future

Works for me.

[Pagekeeper]

Yes, it can be that simple.

For me, this conception has changed over time. As I grow, so does my conception. The important thing is that you are open to having a conception. For example, I became willing to research different spiritual approaches. I read Zen, Taoism, and other spiritual teachers. I highly reccommend Jiddu Krishnamurti. His book, The First and Last Freedom, has opened my eyes in so many ways. He is not affiliated with any organized religion, either.

For me, at this moment, God is not a word but God is an experience. God is not a noun, but God is a verb.

[Zencat]

I currently have a fluid understanding of God as I understand God. I consider God to be many things like a "Group Of Drunks" or "Good Orderly Direction" (The Dharma) or Zen or the totality of the known universe or a collective of people seeking positive change. I view turning my over will to God of my understanding as aligning my will with my conceptions of God. I have even found a way to pray that has meaning to me. That being a Tibetan prayer wheel.

Originally Posted by Pagekeeper

For me, at this moment, God is not a word but God is an experience. God is not a noun, but God is a verb. For me, at this moment, God is not a word but God is an experience. God is not a noun, but God is a verb.

I like that.

[paulmh]

I view turning my over will to God of my understanding as aligning my will with my conceptions of God.

That's it right there. Recovery in a nutshell. My ""will" has fairly consistently worked against my best interests by "fighting" the universe. The purpose of recovery is to bring my "will" back into alignment. A feeling of peace and serenity is the result, which has lots of beneficial effects - not least of which is a reduced, or completely absent desire to use.

I'm glad you've found a concept of G*d with which you can work, soontobe.. - the sort of change we seek in recovery is not the same sort of change we seek in active addiction , the change of a switch going on and off. It's the change of a process which occurs in its own time, not in ours. Wish you well.

[keithj]

Originally Posted by soontobehomeles

For more than forty years I have been unequivocly Athiestic. Man has created GOD or god to meet his own needs.

This was almost exactly my feelings coming into AA. I found that my previous beliefs did not hinder me in any way as long as I was willing and open-minded. I followed the directions in We Agnostics very closely, and they've never let me down.

My concept of a higher power has evolved and continues to evolve. I hope it never gets static and I have the delusion that I know what this thing is. I have no idea what it is; I just can't deny it in my life. I've had a spiritual awakening as the result of taking the 12 steps. It sounds like we started from the roughly the same place.

[Zencat]

And a big welcome to the Sober Recovery forums soontobehomeles.

[Gypsy Feet]

hmmmm, I am a little jealous! I am still in the "I can do all this on my own, I surrender nothing" frame of mind=)

Although in my heart I have always known there were currents felt but unseen. The leap for me isn't believing that something IS more powerful than me, the leap for me is admitting I need that something to fix me besides me

[Pagekeeper]

the leap for me is admitting I need that something to fix me besides me

I felt the same way. But after some reflection, I came to the conclusion that I could always make that leap when it came to alcohol. I always needed a drink to "fix me" --fix my broken heart, social phobia, fix my boredom, insecurities, fix my attitude, inhibitions, depression, tension--hell, I'd been using booze to "fix me" since I was 13 years old.

Not to mention that I thought marriage could "fix" my drinking problem, or moving could "fix" my drinking problem, or switching brands or not going to bars or only drinking in bars or on special occasions or waiting until after dinner or only mixing vodka with Diet Coke. For crying out loud, all I did was look outside of myself for something to fix me, fix my drinking problem, and fix everything else wrong with my life.

Needless to say, one of my favorite sentences in the Big Book is:

We found the Great Reality deep down within us.

For the first time in my life, I don't have to look outside myself.

What a relief.




All Big Book quotes are from first edition

[Gypsy Feet]

Originally Posted by Pagekeeper

For the first time in my life, I don't have to look outside myself.

What a relief.

Well see!! I'm not looking outside myself=) Thanks for the smile, I know all of those fixes well!:ghug2

[ananda]

mmmm...just in a meeting where this came up.....people talked about "choosing there concept" and i don't believe that is possible.

It's "god, as we understand him" i believe that god has a specific meaning....so as long as i understand the word god to mean all loving, all powerful, all seeing, and all knowing....i cannot believe in god.

That said, for now i simply replace the word god with HP and do just fine.

I was struck by how the literature is full of the belief that those wanderers from faith will soon be back on board, silly little children...

But i understand that that is simply the place that the fist 100 were at at the time the literature was written....

What i know today is i am firm on step 1 and step 2...actually i'm firm on most of the steps today...my problems seem to be on the self dicipline envolved in steps 10 and 11....so that will need to be a focus

off to do my review of yesterday and start my today

[keithj]

Ananda,

I'm glad that you have something that works for you. That's all any of us really want, I think, something that works in our lives.

Originally Posted by ananda

...my problems seem to be on the self dicipline envolved in steps 10 and 11....

I agree that the discipline of 10 and 11 is tough. Especially 10 for me. A guy in my home group has shared so much about step 10, how he does it, what it does for him, that I really took it to heart and put in more effort. The result of that has been wonderful.

[meditation]

I believe in God but I also don't believe I am powerless either. Thus I don't really fit into step thinking nor a non religious thinking. I guess I am just happy that I don't use substances for whatever reason and it really doesn't matter the important thing is that I am clean and I am happy and at peace. I gave up trying to cram myself into a mold of recovery and give it a formal name.

[barb dwyer]

It can be exceedingly simple.

This is a nice thread.
I like when there's no bashing of beliefs or concepts.

It's a very intimate topic.
And I'm happy for you to have come to such a pleasant and gracious understanding.

Great job on sdtaying in the positive.

[Eroica]

Even with your own personal conception of God, you still have to turn your will over to it. So really it doesn't matter what "God" is, its still functioning in the same way as the Judeo-Christian entity. You have to depend on it and conceptualize it the same way as the rest of the people in the AA room to get rid of your drinking problem.

I don't surrender to anything. Surrendering is what makes the program non-secular.

[ananda]

I work the steps without a god.... i turn my will and my life over to the spiritual/principled path that i walk...

it works fine today

[Pagekeeper]

Originally Posted by Eroica

Even with your own personal conception of God, you still have to turn your will over to it. So really it doesn't matter what "God" is, its still functioning in the same way as the Judeo-Christian entity. You have to depend on it and conceptualize it the same way as the rest of the people in the AA room to get rid of your drinking problem.

I don't surrender to anything. Surrendering is what makes the program non-secular.

The act of surrender is human before it is anything else. Who hasn't surrendered to something before? Surrendered to laziness, to chocolate, to an authority figure, to a parent, friend, the television, an argument, etc.

People surrender to gut feelings or their 6th sense--I don't believe either arose out of any religion. Surrender, it is just a human behavior. Religion didn't invent it.

Surrender does not always mean failure. Surrender can be a positive thing. I'm not even sure one can love another without surrending to the experience of love. And what about forgiveness? Isn't forgiveness a form of surrender?

[Eroica]

Sorry for the late response but I didn't clarify myself. Surrendering to something unknown because I'm apparently insane is not the same thing as surrendering because I naturally do. In other words, in the examples you bring up-love, forgiveness, I automatically surrender (or know that its right to). I don't need to take a leap of faith or make a judgment about my self like I need to for AA.

I stand by my point that surrendering to an unknown entity because I'm broken in character is not secular. Secularism is to believe in the innate power of the human in spite of "divine intervention." The 12 steps are inherantly anti-secular because you rely on a HP. Its just MO. I think a secular person can follow the 12 steps loosely, but there's no way to make the 12 steps secular.

btw, surrendering to something doesnt necessarily bring peace. I've surrendered to the law, even though I don't believe in many of the laws, but because I don't want to go to jail I "follow them" when I can lol

[ananda]

well...regardless...this section is entitled "secular 12 step recovery"

That means differnt things to different people and i think there is room for all of use here

I like the conclusion of the original poster...change over time would definately work for me !

The "GOD" aspect of AA is what scared me away from AA for many years and that has almost killed me. I attended my first meeting on Sunday, May 17th, 2009. Three days ago as I write this. (It's 5:00 AM and my insomnia is because I am going through my Last withdrawl. There will not be another.)

For more than forty years I have been unequivocly Athiestic. Man has created GOD or god to meet his own needs. Our world exists because of a series of changes that have occured slowly over billions of years.

Still I believe the concept of a god has been helpful to both Man and Mankind; I had even become jealous of those who could yield thier future to such a concept, especially if the result was sobreity. Still I had to find some "As I understand him" that would work for me.

"Group Of Drunks" was suggested to me and it will work just fine for step Two; Not so much for steps Three, Six, Seven or Eleven. Even if it did, I'm not sure I want to turn my future over to this "Group". Replacing a devotion to Vodka with a devotion to AA doesn't strike me as such a good idea.

"Higher Power" in step two is easy. Two people can do more than one and enough can elect a president or stop a war; Clearly there is a higher power than just me (or you). Besides, In step one we admitted that we've got a problem we can't solve. Step two seems to me, is agreeing that it can be solved, with help.

There is life on earth because changes occuring over lots of time made it happen; Why won't that work?

God = Change over time = creation?
Possibly simply: god = future

Works for me.

[Pagekeeper]

Maybe you are right and the 12 steps are not "secular." But within the context of how the term is being used for this forum, I think most of us define it as using a 12 step program without an ecclesiastical HP.

Surrendering to a HP is not limited to the Judeo-Christian tradition. Some spiritual disciplines and philosophies surrender to "The Way," or "The Now," or reality or nature.

[OldManJudo]

Could it be surrendering to "that which is the natural order?"

Actually, that sounds a little stuffy; but hopefully the idea is there.

I get in trouble when I start thinking: "HEY! Our caveman ancestors probably found pools of fermented water and went nuts sipping the stuff up."
That's the natural order isn't it?
There's certain species of bees that go sip the nectar of Sacred Datura and end up gleefully flying around the forest.

Of course, the down side is: the drunken caveman is more likely to get eaten by the Sabertooth than his sober buddy, and the intoxicated bee ends up meeting a windshield by the end of the day.

[digderidoo]

Originally Posted by pagekeeper

For me, at this moment, God is not a word but God is an experience. God is not a noun, but God is a verb.

That sort of sums it up for me, God for me is an unknown spiritual journey, rather than an entity.

Paul

[FightingIrish]

This is me.

Originally Posted by Pagekeeper

I felt the same way. But after some reflection, I came to the conclusion that I could always make that leap when it came to alcohol. I always needed a drink to "fix me" --fix my broken heart, social phobia, fix my boredom, insecurities, fix my attitude, inhibitions, depression, tension--hell, I'd been using booze to "fix me" since I was 13 years old.

Not to mention that I thought marriage could "fix" my drinking problem, or moving could "fix" my drinking problem, or switching brands or not going to bars or only drinking in bars or on special occasions or waiting until after dinner or only mixing vodka with Diet Coke. For crying out loud, all I did was look outside of myself for something to fix me, fix my drinking problem, and fix everything else wrong with my life.

Needless to say, one of my favorite sentences in the Big Book is:



For the first time in my life, I don't have to look outside myself.

What a relief.




All Big Book quotes are from first edition

[FightingIrish]

I highly recommend Sandy B. and Bob B.'s 4-part recording entitled "There is a Solution" (2004) I think it's available on XA. Amazing stuff on this topic.

[lucid]

I'm not sure if AA is going to be the right path for me (I've only been to one meeting), but I'm keeping an open mind. For now, I'm thinking of my HP as being my frontal lobes -- the part of the brain used for judgement, impulse control, planning, etc.

[Zencat]

First off OldManJudo and soontobehomeles to Sober Recovery.

Originally Posted by soontobe

Still I believe the concept of a god has been helpful to both Man and Mankind; I had even become jealous of those who could yield thier future to such a concept, especially if the result was sobreity. Still I had to find some "As I understand him" that would work for me.

I'm actual perplexed about that concept...of all the concepts there are...and there are many can bring different meaning regarding ones relation to such a concept..any kind of conclusion especially regarding sobriety. Puzzling