What do the Steps do for me...secular perspective

[ananda]

mmmm...well i'll give it a go....


I came to AA in 85...lost my belief in god in 87 or 88....so i was already doing steps...

but i drank for 8 years and returned in 2007. So this will be sorta a mishmash...

i've always seen steps one as a step that almost everyone takes prior to coming to aa and that people often fully understand step 1 and never go on to anything more.

I'm not sure, but i suspect that i could never have gotten sober if i had not recoginzed that I was an alchoholic and my life was going crazy..on the inside more importantly than the outside. Wouldn't have to use the word alchoholic or crazy..just the expereicne that i'm talking about regardless of the label....(i'm on lunch for 15 so won't do details at the momnet)

the steps are ONE way of getting sober...i went to meetings drunk for a year and drank for 8 years after i had step one....step 2 was absolutely necessary for me to get sober...believing that I could be sober that it was possible for me. And I was solid on one and shakely getting there on step 2 when i put down the alchohl.

I guess the steps aren't the "cure" for me, they are a way to find an answer to not drinking that will work for me. And it isn't so much about getting sober after step one and two, but about how to stay sober...i mean staying sober was the problem after I quit.

Lots of people at SR who don't do steps or AA go through the same process that I did by doing the steps...or at least that is how it appears on the outside watching.

anyhow...working the steps didn't keep me sober always, but it gave me a fighting chance and still helps me today. It taught me what i do and don't believe and helped me learn to live by that. Actually it was only by very dedicatedly working the steps and living by my beliefs that i found out i didn't believe in god anymore. Was a toughy, but i have worked through that.

In answer to a quetion posed in the secular area...you know i don't know that it's posible to find a non=christian AA group really that is what i have come to know AA to be...cause for me an aa group can't say who can and can't come to a meeting...so all sorts are gonna show up....actually that is one way it helps me learn to STAY sober...i mean it's life...i have to learn to deal.

In my town buddhist are practically satan to many lol and the schools and everything are set up based on christian beliefs even if the people don't think they are christian....I learn how to deal with it...it is simply the culture to which I have been born. It isn't like i lie down like a doormat..I don't at all...but close the world out cause it isn't how I want it and believe it should be.

I'm not a doormat in AA either and for the most part my particular expereinces are accepted and respected. Wednesday the reading was "to the agnostic" ... i shared it was the most offensive (for me) chapter in the book... I shared how I deal with it, I shared how the program works for agnostics and the book reflects one groups expereince and the whole point of the program is to allow everyones expereince to benifit others...we got a lot more experince these days.

Some in the group have completely different expereinces with me..pretty much we don't argue it or do the one upmanship on it...we just share and move on and i learn and i work on changing me on the inside or maybe accepting me not sure which just know thet steps are a form that can get me there quite nicely and h*ll right now i am again reminded if i don't do something proactive about change....I'll end up drunk cause sober isn't worth it if you are miserable even 90 % of the time..well it is cause it gives you a chance, but i don't think i could do it.

anyways just some geneiric sharing....

Is there anyone else out there that actually is agnostic atheist and works the steps in some form? Sure would be nice to hear from others.

[Fubarcdn]

Thanks for the answer Ananda.
I totally get that if I have 1 drink then I am headed for trouble and I am totally convinced I can refrain fro drinking again if I choose to.
I am more interested in how the other steps can help lead a better life sober, especially the steps that require action as opposed to the steps which involve giving things up to the HP. Any thoughts from anyone that has done any kind of 12 step program?
Maybe for some it is just as simple as Windy says.

[ananda]

well fubar,

most peoples lives around here seem to change when they take a look at the past and how their behaviors have been effected by others and lead to behaviors on our part..the tangled mess if looked at closely can help me to detach from some of the actions that are not leading me in a positivedirecteion and hurt those around us (step 4) steps 7/8 seem to deal with getting my head in a space to start making those changes in my behavior and steps 8/9 help me to begin to correct those things I can about the past, to show some appreciation for past relationships and start some healing. Then 10/11/12 are really about learning to track myself daily and in tense moments...check my actions and where they come from are they appropriete...what can i / should i do different...

Helps me to see my relationshp tothe world around me and how to have more meaningful and haromonious relationships..

again brief as i am working


I don't know it justseems like it has hugely helped me...as poorly as i still deal with life and things...you should have seen the mess i was 20 years ago

windy seems from the outside to have changed over time....but i don't know him well (grin)...don't drink no matter what seems to put enough presure on me to force me to change

[ananda]

bump

[Fubarcdn]

I am working a modified version of the 12 steps on my own.
I combined 1 and 2 and called that Phase 1. I pretty much had that the day I started to quit.
Step 3 I just eliminated as I have no belief that anyone can do this except myself. I have a strong will and when I set out to do something I do it as long as I want to continue doing it.
For example my financial plan stretches out for another 35 years and it was developed 30 years ago. It changes but the end result is still in tack.
Phase 2 was getting into physical shape again to improve my self confidence and is ongoing. I am making great progress with this.
Phase 3 is acknowledging the damage and making amends. This is also a work in progress. The one I hurt most is my wife and to a lesser extent my kids. My kids have forgiven anything I might have done to hurt them and said they don't even remember anything specific.
I was a stay at home dad since my youngest was 2. I may have yelled at them and at their mother in front of them and hurt their self esteem slightly but I doubt if it was any more than any other parent. What I did to my wife is a little worse but I never hurt any of them physically. I am too big a softie.
I have just started phase 4 which has to do with removing the things that may compromise my happiness. I am working on tolerance, patience, and empathy so far.
I work on empathy here by answering every newcomers thread with a focus on understanding and encouragement. I try to write something that will encourage that person to carry on and find something that will make their life better or maybe just help ease the pain a bit.
I feel I am probably as compassionate as the next person and more than most so this is the easiest of the three things I am working on.
The other 2 are harder and since I just started this phase I will see how it goes and if anybody is interested report in later.
That is as far as I have gotten. I will figure out the rest after I get farther along in phase 4.
It may not be a perfect plan or even a good plan but it is better for me thab anything else I have read about so what it is is what it is.
Thank you to anybody that has read this and if you have comments they are appreciated.
If nobody read this that is cool too. At least I have reconfirmed this for myself.
Having been a MR. Mom for a lot of my adult life (20 years now) I am used to being a loner so the group thing does not appeal to me.
Thanks again for listening.

[Pagekeeper]

I've come to realize that my understanding of the steps and how they improve my life is as much of a mysterious process as my recovery--and what a wonderful thing that is because if I kept the same interpretation of the steps, how would I grow spiritually?

Yes, I just said spiritually. A month ago I would've never said that, I would've never included the word "spiritual" because my definition of spiritual was someone who belonged to a religious organization or someone who worshipped deities or believed in supernatural entities.

Obviously, my definition has changed. And I won't bother anyone with my pet theories, all I will say is that the BB says it is "broad, roomy, all inclusive, never exclusive or forbidding [ . . . ]" AA allows me to define my spirituality however I want.

There's a person in my community, who when sharing, likes to add that The Bible was the first book the original founders used, and not the Big Book. Boy, it made me searing mad every time this person said that. I'd leave the meeting feeling so bitter. In my mind, this person was saying: AA can work wonders for you, but only if you are religious or ready to get saved. I had to do an inventory on it, find out why it bothered me so much. What I found out was that I was being a bit of a hypocrite. I want to preach that the realm of the spirit is "broad, roomy, all inclusive, never exclusive or forbidding [ . . . ]" but only when it benefits me--I am not practicing that principle if I'm acting intolerant when someone else expresses a different view from mine.

The steps have helped teach me how to really get to know myself--how I think, why I think that way, and to investigate and test every conviction I hold. It may sound self-centered, but if I don't know how my own mind works, then how can I have any kind of peace or serenity?

[ananda]

thanks page.....hit that nail on the head for me (hug)

I have to accept others path as their path just as clearly as mine is mine....encourage them to explore thier path just as they encourage me to follow mine...

i like that with my AA and 12 step friends, we can use a common format to reach a solution and the format is roomy and all inclusive if i choose to see it that way I guess.

[SelfSeeking]

My atheist 3rd step "prayer" goes as follows... I say God because 'universe' or 'forces of nature' or 'all that is' has too many syllables!

God, relieve me of the bondage of self, so that I can know the peace, love, and strength that surrounds me always. Help me to surrender and grow.

I say it silently and everything just... calms down. It's something I say to myself at the ends of meetings, too, when the group is reciting the Lord's Prayer.

I felt like sharing it somewhere on SR. Here ya go,thread! *splat*

[paulmh]

I always loved the line "...relieve me of the bondage of self".

It's kind of amazing to look back and think - Gawd, for so long I was the problem. And yet, when I realised that the problem was "me", and not other people or the rest of the world - bugger me, it's so much easier to begin to recover when I'm no longer at the mercy of what everyone else says and does. Just at the mercy of how my own mind and self work against my best interests - and I can actually do domething about that!

Thanks SS.

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by SelfSeeking

My atheist 3rd step "prayer" goes as follows... I say God because 'universe' or 'forces of nature' or 'all that is' has too many syllables!

God, relieve me of the bondage of self, so that I can know the peace, love, and strength that surrounds me always. Help me to surrender and grow.

I say it silently and everything just... calms down. It's something I say to myself at the ends of meetings, too, when the group is reciting the Lord's Prayer.

I felt like sharing it somewhere on SR. Here ya go,thread! *splat*

I am a "God" person, but the steps do the same thing for me as for the secular person. Like the title of the thread says, it is just a matter of perspective.

The longer I am on this path and the more I grow, the conception of God is something that I cannot wrap my mind around. In fact, it has become so big that it doesn't matter to me if it is or isn't. I like what Joseph Campbell said, "God neither is nor is not." Maybe this what is meant by the more I know the less I know.

But anymore when I use the word God, it is just because it is short, easy to say, and most people kind of have an idea of what I am trying to say.

Really what I'm saying here is that I don't see my experience as being much different from the secular member's.
Jim

[ananda]

I like that particular line a lot and find it very useful...relieve me of the bondage of self....what a trap the self is! steping out of this little image of have of who/what i am...to connect with the world around me! To be a part of instead of seperate from!

Guess that is the freedom, maybe the core freedom I was trying to find in a bottle...don't know..thats how it strikes me at the moment

[KOOKS]

I'm confused......I don't understand how you can go through the steps without a belief in God. The programme is a religious conversion. If you do not believe in God who or what are you turning your will and your life over to having declared powerlessness?

[Pagekeeper]

Originally Posted by KOOKS

I'm confused......I don't understand how you can go through the steps without a belief in God. The programme is a religious conversion. If you do not believe in God who or what are you turning your will and your life over to having declared powerlessness?

Maybe you are right.

And I suppose, if I really wanted to, I could get nit-picky about semantics and the like, and you could come back with clever rebuttals and we could spend the next week bickering over the denotations and connotations of words, but what does it really matter? I've found a way to live that gives me some peace of mind. I no longer feel the need to justify the path I've chosen. It is what it is, and lately it is wonderful. I hope the path you've chosen is equally wonderful for you.

[ananda]

Not to word picker

I turn my will and my life over to the spiritual path I am on .... the way of life that i have found....

I have found a way of living within principles that I believe in that I try to follow every day.

[KOOKS]

Originally Posted by Pagekeeper

Maybe you are right.

And I suppose, if I really wanted to, I could get nit-picky about semantics and the like, and you could come back with clever rebuttals and we could spend the next week bickering over the denotations and connotations of words, but what does it really matter? I've found a way to live that gives me some peace of mind. I no longer feel the need to justify the path I've chosen. It is what it is, and lately it is wonderful. I hope the path you've chosen is equally wonderful for you.

I wasn't trying to be clever and I wouldn't want to argue or nit pick. I attended AA and worked the steps but couldn't carry on because I just knew that it wasn't God that was working in my life. It was me, the effort I was putting in to change and the support from people in AA. I do miss it sometimes. The community spirit, the one to one support, being able to talk about feelings etc., where else can you do this so freely with such understanding from the people around you.

I just couldn't understand how the steps could be done without belief in God. I wasn't trying to be smart....truthfully!
I'm glad you don't feel the need to justify your chosen path and I am glad you feel wonderful today....long may it continue.

[paulmh]

Hey KOOKS, welcome.

If you miss AA, why not go back?

A part of the process of recovery for me was giving up the need to understand everything, this idea that somehow I had to know the truth before I could act upon it. Recovery happens for this alcoholic when I do things without having a prejudice about what should happen first. Another part of recovery was about personal honesty - and that means that I don't have to agree with everyone in AA about everything, and I don't have to feel threatened when they have a lot to say about "G*d", or anything else. I just need to learn how to be true to myself. (My personal feeling though is that I just need to agree that the first 164 pages provide a shared framework for our experiences and actions - but perhaps that's another thread.. )

How can I discover what I already know? The process of discovery by definition means finding out things I don't know. Why give up going to AA when you've realised - rightly - that it's all about the work you put in yourself? Why stop going to AA when you've realised - rightly - that there is real power in fellowship which we can tap into, and which gives us the chance to help someone who's still suffering? Why let the things that you diagree about keep you away from the things that benefit you? On face value you have of course a point - much of the programme is about "bringing us closer to G*d" - but we can view that as a metaphor if it bothers us too much, and to simply mean that we behave and think with greater integrity (closer to G*d) rather than with selfishness, fear, self-centredness, resentment (further away from G*d).

[KOOKS]

Hi Paul...The reason I don't go back is that I feel like a hypocrite if I endorse AA, the BB and the steps. At the meetings down my way the emphasise is heavily on God or HP. I found though that HP is tolerated only until you have done the steps and then you will realise it is God and not HP. If you don't you are practically ostracised. It is heavily chritianised which I think makes it very exclusive. I was brought up as a Christian and believed in God until I started working the steps. I think it is wrong to say The Lords Prayer at meetings. I hated this especially as it was not the version I was brought up with (C of S) but the Catholic version. I resented this and so it did not do me any good at all.

I think of all the people from different religions and none who feel they don't fit in. It shouldn't be this way.

I'm very confused about all this busines of doing the steps without God. I can see your point of view and others of how you work a programme which suits you. But I just can't see how this can be incorporated into an AA programme.

I shall stick around though, read some more posts and join in the discussions on the subject and try to gain a better understanding of the whole thing.

It's good that we can discuss this....in AA in my experience the subject was not up for debate........end of story!!

[Pagekeeper]

Kooks,

Sorry to hear you're struggling within your AA community. In my opinion, and from what I've read of AA's history, the program was never intended to exclude ANY alcoholic who wanted to stop drinking--thus, the 3rd tradition--The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

For a very long time, I believed AA would never work for me because I was not religious, and also for the reason you have stated--how can I work the steps without a belief in God? But the Big Book makes it very clear that I may find my own conception:

When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you (BB, pg 47).

To me, this passage is simply saying: Don't let words discourage you from giving this a shot. Then it encourages you to think for yourself by contemplating what these words mean to you--not what they mean to other members of the group or to your parents or the local guru or the pope--what these terms mean to you.

[paulmh]

Having been raised in the West of Scotland I'm amazed that any group up there would end with the Lords Prayer (I've never encountered it here in England - not to say that it doesn't happen of course) - and whether it was the Catholic version or the Protestant one, not think that it might be damaging to their Unity.

[KOOKS]

Originally Posted by paulmh

Having been raised in the West of Scotland I'm amazed that any group up there would end with the Lords Prayer (I've never encountered it here in England - not to say that it doesn't happen of course) - and whether it was the Catholic version or the Protestant one, not think that it might be damaging to their Unity.

Why would that amaze you Paul?.....and yes I agree it is very damaging no matter what version is used.

[paulmh]

Without trying to second guess a group conscience (he said, second guessing it), I would've thought that saying the Lord's Prayer at the end of an AA meeting in Scotland would just by definition exclude a sizeable proportion of the audience - and would be courting controversy, and would work against our primary purpose rather than for it.

As I say, I've NEVER been in an AA meeting where the Lords Prayer has been said. I'm a great believer in group autonomy, but at the same time saying the Lord's Prayer at the end of meetings has always felt like it goes against the "not allied with any sect, denomination....etc" part of the preamble. I know that lots of meetings in the US do it, but - in my experience only - it's not so popular here. And like I said, I would've thought in Scotland it would've been seen as working against our unity rather than for it.

[KOOKS]

Originally Posted by paulmh

Without trying to second guess a group conscience (he said, second guessing it), I would've thought that saying the Lord's Prayer at the end of an AA meeting in Scotland would just by definition exclude a sizeable proportion of the audience - and would be courting controversy, and would work against our primary purpose rather than for it.

As I say, I've NEVER been in an AA meeting where the Lords Prayer has been said. I'm a great believer in group autonomy, but at the same time saying the Lord's Prayer at the end of meetings has always felt like it goes against the "not allied with any sect, denomination....etc" part of the preamble. I know that lots of meetings in the US do it, but - in my experience only - it's not so popular here. And like I said, I would've thought in Scotland it would've been seen as working against our unity rather than for it.

I see what you mean and I agree. It's also said at conventions. It was said at the last convention I was at. Someone had put a question in the askit basket as to why the need to say TLP at meetings. A long winded excuse was given I was so wound up at the time though I can't remember exactly what was said.

[jamdls]

Originally Posted by Fubarcdn

I am working a modified version of the 12 steps on my own.
I combined 1 and 2 and called that Phase 1. I pretty much had that the day I started to quit.
Step 3 I just eliminated as I have no belief that anyone can do this except myself. I have a strong will and when I set out to do something I do it as long as I want to continue doing it.
For example my financial plan stretches out for another 35 years and it was developed 30 years ago. It changes but the end result is still in tack.
Phase 2 was getting into physical shape again to improve my self confidence and is ongoing. I am making great progress with this.
Phase 3 is acknowledging the damage and making amends. This is also a work in progress. The one I hurt most is my wife and to a lesser extent my kids. My kids have forgiven anything I might have done to hurt them and said they don't even remember anything specific.
I was a stay at home dad since my youngest was 2. I may have yelled at them and at their mother in front of them and hurt their self esteem slightly but I doubt if it was any more than any other parent. What I did to my wife is a little worse but I never hurt any of them physically. I am too big a softie.
I have just started phase 4 which has to do with removing the things that may compromise my happiness. I am working on tolerance, patience, and empathy so far.
I work on empathy here by answering every newcomers thread with a focus on understanding and encouragement. I try to write something that will encourage that person to carry on and find something that will make their life better or maybe just help ease the pain a bit.
I feel I am probably as compassionate as the next person and more than most so this is the easiest of the three things I am working on.
The other 2 are harder and since I just started this phase I will see how it goes and if anybody is interested report in later.
That is as far as I have gotten. I will figure out the rest after I get farther along in phase 4.
It may not be a perfect plan or even a good plan but it is better for me thab anything else I have read about so what it is is what it is.
Thank you to anybody that has read this and if you have comments they are appreciated.
If nobody read this that is cool too. At least I have reconfirmed this for myself.
Having been a MR. Mom for a lot of my adult life (20 years now) I am used to being a loner so the group thing does not appeal to me.
Thanks again for listening.

My own version of the 12 steps is similar to Fubarcn. Step 1 was easy and necessary,
step 2 I disagree because only I could put my life back together.
Step 3 I ignore I am responsible for me
Step 4 and 5 Is where I spent nearly the whole first year of sobriety and it was painful, but necessary and ongoing
6 & 7 that's just silly to me
8 & 9 was very theraputic and will continue to be as the occassion arise
10 ongoing
11 is not really for me
12 I've not had a spiritual awakening it's just that I no longer live in the fog of alcohol and yes I try to encourage others who struggle with addiction whenever I can

[Zencat]

Originally Posted by ananda

I turn my will and my life over to the spiritual path I am on .... the way of life that i have found....

As I open myself to the possibility of returning to AA in a active role. My take from what already has been said on this tread is: as I go deeper into my own path I am finding ways to convert (maybe translate?) what is said by AA into an understanding that enriches my convictions as a Buddhist. As I can turn my life and will over to mindfulness or original mind. At least something along those lines for sure.

I beginning to think that because I was on shaky footing regarding my own convictions, the beliefs of others would topple me. I would then react from hurt and lash out at others from my fall. Not to say this is the case for anyone on this tread...just trying to explore my own stuff.

[ananda]

yes Z-cat....I joke that i had to translate buddhism to be understandable to my modern american christian view of the world that i was born to, and now i have to translate AA into my buddhism....

When i am doing well in my practice, that transaltion is very rarely hard..seems to happen easily and with little effort...however, when i am off kilter I am easily flustered and confused and get resentful due to my own stuff.

I've been thinking for about a week now that i have really let my practice slide and haven't been working steps since my sponsor and i did a formal working which we wrapped up months and months ago....

So here I am sorta flaky and struggling, not with drinking but with life...and i wonder why

time to get back to practice....