Existentialism and AA

[paulmh]

I came across this -

Group Psychotherapy with Addicted ... - Google Book Search

and it's fascinating. There's a large part of a book entitled "Group Psychotherapy with Addicted Populations". This link takes you to a page which starts the chapter "Existential View of AA".

I can't copy and paste from it, but there's so much that's fascinating here.

[paulmh]

..

To grow up, alcoholics must relinquish the paradise of limitless abundance and arrogance. They must learn to renounce, to work, to suffer, to postpone gratification, to be responsible and, above all, to take an active, responsible part in mastering their fate.

p.280

[paulmh]

..

In many respects, AA invokes a spiritual or religious vocabulary in the absence of a perhaps more accurate but inaccessible philosophical-ontological terminology

p. 283

In other words, AA is inclusive!

[paulmh]

..

The insight of AA and the philsophy of existential thinkers are identical in that both see denial and self-deception as the root of all human evil and the source of all alienation. The reversal of this trend requires alcoholics to face their need for others with uncompromising honesty.

p. 289

[Pagekeeper]

Thanks! Looks like a cool book and interesting read. I ordered the book--wow, the hardback was over $100.00 but I picked up a paperback for $8.00 on amazon.

[ananda]

In many respects, AA invokes a spiritual or religious vocabulary in the absence of a perhaps more accurate but inaccessible philosophical-ontological terminology

Gee thats what i kept trying to say the other day and i got pretty well beat up for it......glad to know there are otheres as stupid as me

[doorknob]

Originally Posted by ananda

Gee thats what i kept trying to say the other day and i got pretty well beat up for it......

Where and by whom?

[ananda]

LOL you are so cute DK...it was here on secular of course.....no biggy....ok so i had to mention it .... naughty of me... i shall work to remove that resentment pronto

[findingout]

Thanks for sharing this find Paul. I read a few pages online and had to order a copy (used, $145 new??? yikes! ) to own. At first meeting, it seems to explain a lot of things about my experience in 12 step recovery that I've only glimpsed out of the corner of my eye.

[paulmh]

I must've touched lucky Tony, the secondhand copy I found was only $3.50, plus the same again to post to the UK.

I'm looking forward to it. I read something in it, went something like the purpose of recovery is to replace "neurotic misery with ordinary human suffering". At first reading it sounded kinda bleak, but I think, for those of us who have really suffered from that kinda self-inflicted wounding, being able to just live life as it is, without spicing every event with our "self", is pretty freeing.

[ananda]

You are so zen paul

[findingout]

Originally Posted by paulmh

I read something in it, went something like the purpose of recovery is to replace "neurotic misery with ordinary human suffering". At first reading it sounded kinda bleak, but I think, for those of us who have really suffered from that kinda self-inflicted wounding, being able to just live life as it is, without spicing every event with our "self", is pretty freeing.

Buttercup: You mock my pain.
Westley: Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.
"The Princess Bride"

I don't know where I got the idea that my life should be free of the kind of ordinary ups and downs other humans had to deal with but I do know constant consumption of alcohol and other drugs kept me chasing that illusion at a great cost.

(I got my copy for $18 plus $4 shipping, so that's not so bad.)

[paulmh]

You are so zen paul

That's such a cute comment Ananda thank you. I don't quite know how I missed it the other day!

I'm grateful today for my direction of travel.

[sfgirl]

I really thank you for posting this. It gave language to something that I have been trying to figure out for a while in my head. It is funny before I got sober I started reading existentialist literature and philosophy texts because I seriously thought I was having a crisis of faith (although I didn't actually have a faith...). One book I really loved was Paul Tillich's Courage to Be. I just kept fighting against this emptiness that I could not seem to get rid off in any way.

Lately in sobriety, I have really been thinking about the idea or more the act of "surrender." I feel that it was/is key to my recovery. I don't understand how I came to do it nor how it really is affecting me or exactly to what or to whom I surrendered, but I think that was the paradigm shift that is making this go at sobriety and recovery the real deal (hopefully). I actually have the first two books that the passage quotes and am reading them currently: Ernest Kurtz's Not-God and The Spirituality of Imperfection. I highly recommend so far Not-God which is an intellectual history of AA. It is really, really interesting. Unfortunately, I don't think the other book is well written enough especially for its subject matter.

My favorite passage from paulmh's book was probably:

Existentialists generally believe that happiness can only be achieved once the individual gives up the illusion of unlimited happiness. Ernest Becker describers this situation perfectly when he states, 'I am talking to the cheerful robots. I think the world is full of too many cheerful robots who talk only about joy and the good things. I have considered it my task to talk about the terror and suffering in the world'. The terror that Becker talks about is our refusal to deal with suffering and death. We must view these aspects realistically and not try to avoid them by only dwelling on the beautiful things in life. Becker defines this position nicely when he writes, 'joy and hope and trust are things one achieves after one has been through the forlornness'. Otto Rank agreed when he wrote, 'The dynamic evil is the attempt to make the world other than it is to make it what it cannot be, a place free from impurity, a place free from death and suffering.'(p279-280)

That made me understand a bit more perhaps to what I surrendered. I surrendered to this idea of perfection. That nothing can be perfect. I can't be perfect. I am who I am and I have to take myself as that. The world is as it is and I have to take it as that.

I also like the saying about the "cheerful robots." I think it is especially apt on a bulletin board like here. I will probably get in trouble for saying something like this but sometimes I do feel that people in recovery try to push only the sunny side of things. I actually think this is dangerous since recovery really is about opening up the whole range of emotions. If I was always happy since I was sober, well sh*t then sobriety would be a breeze, right? I value sincerity and I do think that to be able to truly talk about all feelings, good and bad is valuable. And for me, I am now learning not to avoid my bad feelings like I did before, but to feel them— that is a significant part of my recovery.

I think I surrendered to that struggle to make the world different than it was or perhaps I am still surrendering, changing my patterns, who knows? All I know is that I am a hell of a lot more relaxed and I am sober, yay.

[paulmh]

I think I surrendered to that struggle to make the world different than it was or perhaps I am still surrendering, changing my patterns, who knows? All I know is that I am a hell of a lot more relaxed and I am sober, yay.

I think it's dynamic and it goes on, as it should. Do you think we surrender to something only though? Looking back I surrendered some parts of myself too. The parts that were holding me back. "I'm too anxious / depressed / worthless / alcoholic to change". That was something worth getting rid of. These were my weapons of self-harm, the things I used in the war against myself. Weapons worth laying down.

When I studied existentialism years ago I can to realise that the conclusion that the existentialists arrived at - that "humans had to have a moment of honesty to achieve an authentic understanding of how pointless the universe was, and to move on from there" - and they treated that as a destination, was actually simply the jumping off point, the beginning. What's important is not that I have full awareness of the emptiness, the bleakness, the shortness of life. No, what's important is -

what is the first joke I tell after I realise that?

[ananda]

welll....i'm gonna give this a try..hope i'm not too off base...

So to me understanding the emptyness is the begining...frightening as hell too at ttimes...but something was said about expereinceing not just the sunny but the storms as well....

see for me i see the emptieness, and then i place form on it...can't help but to do that as i'm human....but the dicotomy (sorry is that the right word)...I can't expereince joy with out sorrow yada yada yada...you know the drill...

not sure i would use the word pointless...empty makes more sense..pointless doesn't quite capture it for me.

I like that about what is the first joke you tell... sorta captures how i feel about it....

[sfgirl]

Originally Posted by paulmh

I think it's dynamic and it goes on, as it should. Do you think we surrender to something only though? Looking back I surrendered some parts of myself too. The parts that were holding me back. "I'm too anxious / depressed / worthless / alcoholic to change". That was something worth getting rid of. These were my weapons of self-harm, the things I used in the war against myself. Weapons worth laying down.

Definitely— I think most of the what I surrendered are ideas of who I thought I should be. I used to function although it was very subtle yet still very strong by a lot of "should" statements. Like I "should" be doing this to be a ______ person. The funny thing is, that in so many ways I am a rebel, not in a typical sense at all, just I had already rationalized away the way a lot of the world worked and did not buy into it. Therefore, I was not trying to fit into any common mold, in fact a lot of me longed to want to fit into a common mold because that would have been easy. I just thought I had to take care of people, be there for them, things like that, I don't even know, there must have been much more. I was also a little social butterfly— no longer, at least not under the cover of night. I no longer am the "entertainer" and I don't give a sh•t where before this would have given me a lot of anxiety. I had whole stories in my head with "should" and now I am done. Those are over (well getting there). Who I am is finally coming out— and the funny thing is at one point I was like what? who am I? I have been so concentrated on others in such an underground sort of way that I have completed neglected to even notice my own desires and wants. Sometimes I feel like a shadow of a person now because I am like what do I want out of life? Whoa, rambling....

Yeah, so I guess I surrendered to myself. Now the issue is who that self is.

[desertdonna]

Originally Posted by paulmh

What's important is not that I have full awareness of the emptiness, the bleakness, the shortness of life. No, what's important is -

what is the first joke I tell after I realise that?

The joke is that there is no "I" to realize.

[paulmh]

lol.

That's a buddhist joke.

[ananda]

so even if i am not familar with exest...whatever...i can still post here????

[desertdonna]

Originally Posted by paulmh

lol.

That's a buddhist joke.

Why, yes it is. Sorry, Paul, but you set yourself up so nicely for it.

Actually I found this article very interesting. As a member of AA in good standing (much to the chagrin of my fellow doorknobbers, as I like to call them) I seem to be able to draw parallels from the most arcane sources and ideologies as well.

And we do like to have fun in our recovery as we're not a glum lot, no?

Nands, you can post anywhere you want because we love you so much.

[ananda]

crp...i'm gonna have to break down and read the book now

[ananda]

it shipped today

[paulmh]

Mine arrived this week. Second hand and signed by the author no less.

I dipped into it for a bit but I've now set to to read it. It's an old book - twenty years or more. I dunno the first thing about group therapy, it feels like something that was fashionable once, but maybe isn't so much now - or maybe that's just a UK persepective since I never really got a feeling that gruop therapy really took off here - butu what would I know?

His premise seems clear form the off - how can therapists trained in group therapy learn from 12 step methods to be more effective at what they do?

From my experience of AA, this is the sort of stuff that gets AAers goats! Professionals trying to "muscle in" on the culture of AA, usually with a view to sharing their expertise with us to "make" us better! But this guy doesn't seem to take that view.

More will be revealed.....

[stone]

Interesting.