Step 2 for the Non Religious

[Roadhunter]

I don't believe in giving up personal responsibility and handing my problems over to an omnipotent being. If one exists, he/she/it is too busy to be troubled with my petty problems.
I firmly believe that organized religion is responsible for most of the suffering and evil in this world. I have read a bit just in the last two days about agnostics/atheists/non-spiritual types who say they've had no conflict with their lack of beliefs, and those prescribed by AA, but I'm having a hard time seeing this.
I do think that being in Oklahoma (Oral Roberts had his homecoming here yesterday) I'm getting to see probably some of the most religious AA groups, which is part of why I'm looking around online for alternatives/supplements to in-person meetings. My pre-AA meeting research said that I shouldn't feel obligated to join hands for the Lord's Prayer at the end of the meeting, but I can assure you, that was NOT an option.

[sugErspun]

Why was that NOT an option?

[Roadhunter]

Perhaps "not an option" was a bit strong. I'd say it "was not a comfortable option". It was my first meeting, with only 6 others in attendance, and when they all got up and headed towards the door, so did I. Next think I know, they've stopped in a circle with a spot left for me, and to have stepped back and not accepted them at that point would have been rude.
You have to take into account I'm in Oklahoma, and not only is most everyone Christian, they do not have exposure to many people who are not. Just as important, people here are polite to a fault, and I include myself among them.

[Tommyh]

roadrunner,I would much rather stand quietly in a circle for a minute than die of alcoholism.
It can be seen as a sign of unity if nothing else.
The Serenity Prayer has more Christian Connections than the Lords Prayer I believe.The Serenity prayer came strictly from a Christian man.Have you ever read the long form?
The Lords Prayer came from way before Jesus,but most associate it with Jesus because it is in the Bible.I believe Jesus just used a group of principles as a guide to prayer for those who wanted it.Those principles can be traced back thousands of years before Christ.

[Pinkcuda]

One of the hardest things to do for me is to define "The Spiritual Awakening" as opposed to God and Organized Religion. I had a difficult time myself.
Dr Bob had some words that impacted me 55 years after his death. I read them in the book and I am still affected by them to this day. Humility, honesty and an open mind are the essentials to realize that we are not the pinnacle. There is the distinct possibility that there is something that we can refer to as a Higher Power. No, he/ she/ it is not too busy.
Dr. Bob
" If you think you are an Atheist, an Agnostic, a skeptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from accepting what's in this book, I feel sorry for you".
The "Pride" part got to me the most. Pride leads the list of the Seven Deadly Sins. Pride is the opposite of Humility.
I went to Pg 56. and read
"Who are you to say there is no God"
It really got me thinking. Who the hell do I think I am to make a statement like that. Am I so great that I have the right to say that there are 6 billion people on this planet that might be wrong. Am I so great that there is nothing in this Universe that is more powerful than I am.
I wasn't! I was thoroughly beaten and I admited it in Step 1. Alcohol couldn't be the only thing more powerful than I was.
We're looking for a Spiritual Experience to keep us from drinking. That's all!
God, Moses, The Ten Commandments, Burning Bushes, don't apply. They are meaningless in AA.
That is God as someone else sees it. Feeding your concept to others is Religion.
All we need to recover is something to believe in.
Just my thoughts. I don't know if I was any help or not!
All quotes from AA Big Book first Edition.

[doorknob]

Originally Posted by Roadhunter

Perhaps "not an option" was a bit strong. I'd say it "was not a comfortable option". It was my first meeting, with only 6 others in attendance, and when they all got up and headed towards the door, so did I. Next think I know, they've stopped in a circle with a spot left for me, and to have stepped back and not accepted them at that point would have been rude.
You have to take into account I'm in Oklahoma, and not only is most everyone Christian, they do not have exposure to many people who are not. Just as important, people here are polite to a fault, and I include myself among them.

Roadhunter, I totally relate to your experience. For me, neither option is comfortable. IMO, it's not a conform or die scenario, and having a secular outlook has nothing to do with pride. I can't help you resolve that conflict, but maybe it will help a bit to know that you're not the only one who feels that way. Welcome to SR!

DK

[jimhere]

Maybe this discussion belongs on another forum.

[doorknob]

Originally Posted by jimhere

Maybe this discussion belongs on another forum.

Perhaps...

Secular Connections - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

[CarolD]

Roadhunter....
Welcome to SR!

I agree with Jim and DK...so I moved your thread to our
Secular Step Forum.

Hope others will share with you on how they do a
Secular Step 2.

[windysan]

Something good is going to happen to you !!

LOL@"Oral" Roberts

[Pagekeeper]

Roadhunter,

Welcome to the forum!

I live in the Bible Belt and can very much relate. People in my group say "it's not a religious program" yet I get dirty looks when I mention that I'm not a Christian. I had a woman try to "witness" me once after a meeting. :wtf2

My conception of a HP is the "process" of change. Everything changes all the time. Things are constantly in the process of changing and nothing remains unchanged. That to me is a power greater than myself. I use the steps as a catalyst to change my character and rid myself of those behaviors which no longer serve me in recovery. My belief makes sense to me and that is what's important.

So when I do my step 2, I am putting faith in the process of the 12 steps, that if I practice them on a daily basis, I will be restored to sanity. I have no issues admitting I was insane. Drinking 1/5 of vodka every day for 3 years is not sane behavior, and along the way I picked up some other bad habits that were related to the drinking and everything that goes with it: denial, lying, manipulating, acting selfishly, using people as a means to an end, hoarding resentment, grandiose and arrogant attitudes, impulsiveness, etc. Once I put down the bottle, those behaviors were so ingrained that I continued to do them despite the fact that I was sober. Today I work the steps not so much because I don't want to pick up a drink but because I want to be a better person. I find that as I work on becoming a better person, my desire to pick up a drink has subsided and I can honestly say today that I enjoy my sober mind. It's no longer a terrifying place to be all the time. The obsession to drink rarely strikes me these days and when it does I take a hard look at my behavior and start dialing numbers. Even though many people in the program have a different view on God than I do, I've never been rejected by any of them when I called to say I was thinking about drinking.

For more info on my conception of a Higher Power, look down to the post titled "A Darwinian Approach to the 12 Steps."

Hope this helps!

[Roadhunter]

Thank you so much for the kind words. I am in the buckle of the bible belt here in Tulsa. No mention of Christ at AA meetings so far, but it's clear the higher power they speak of is a Christian god.
Getting too tired to respond properly to your message. I did a 9pm AA meeting tonight, when I'm usually in bed by 10pm. Here it is nearly 2am and I'm still up. Damn them for replacing one addiction (alcohol) with another (caffeine). Will re-read your post tomorrow. Thanks again.

[ananda]

hey Road...I'm so glad you are here, and I really wish that you and page (page your post was so good for me to see this morning) would post here frequently.

I am in Kanas and Oklahoma is wher the old family farm was.....my grandparents were quakers and my father an athiest....interesting family back ground.

My group has mostly christian based gods as higher powers even if they don't consider themselves christians.

I want to share so badly, but I have to get packed and out of my hotel room by 7:15...so I can't right now....

Just focus on the actions people are taking, and the basics of the steps ... getting beyond the words people use to the expereince they are having...I get there a little differently then they do but it all helps me.

I hold hands during the lords prayer but don't say it....that works for me. If they are like most people, they will be bowing thier heads and never even notice..plus it isn't rude and like you to me to not hold hands and join the circle would be like saying I'm not like you, not a part of and I am more like others than not...anyways see what you think.

Hope we will get to know each other better and Page!!!! please share more about your expereinces with the 12 steps as a non god person...It really helps me (hug)

[chuck55]

Originally Posted by Roadhunter

Thank you so much for the kind words. I am in the buckle of the bible belt here in Tulsa. No mention of Christ at AA meetings so far, but it's clear the higher power they speak of is a Christian god.

When we get to AA, the ONLY must belive is one thing. You must belive from the bottom of your heart that what you are doing is not working.
I struggled with "God" things quite a bit. My sponsor told me (quite often) the only thing I needed to know about God right now was that I was not him.
One thing that I have discoverd about myself is that in the years since my last drink, I lost the ability of my ESP. I can no longer just look at someone and determine if they are happy on the inside, in a loving relationship like "they are" nor can I tell if some person's personal understanding of their God, is the one I am rebelling against.

Anytime I go to a meeting and look for how I am different I am, how this group or that group is not "sensitive enough" to all my special probems, I need to do is go to a mirrow and see the real problem.
I belive it was a Pogo comic strip that said it the best. "I have met the enemy, and it is ME!"

If I always look how we are different, I am most likey looking for a way "out" of having to do someting.

Look for how we are alike, you can find it. You are worth to much not to...

[ananda]

I guess what step 2 means to me right now is that i need to "come to believe that a power greater than myself can restore me to sanity"

so, that meant that I had to believe that it was possible that I could be sober. that was the deepest meaning for me.

then also, for me this is the insanity that precedes the first drink...and a power greater than my "self"...for me that is my ego my since of who i am.

My since of who i am cannot keep me from the insanity of the firsst drink.... my obsession with clinging to what i think i am and clinging to my "place" in the world...doesn't lead me to sanity..toward drinking or anything else...it becomes the general in my head that reitnerpretes all the data i collect in my head to reinforce my already set view that i am unwilling to change regardless of any information I am givin.

I'm currently nt particulary living step 3 well, so just getting to see this post was a good thing for me today.

Thanks for posting chuck and welcome to SR

[ananda]

oh yeah...the power that is greater than my self...isn't a god

[colinphw]

dude this is how i look at it, the higher power doesnt have to be god, or budda, or vishnue, it just has to be bigger than yourself. for instance a mountain or ocean, just something that is a lot bigger than yourself. For me, for a long time it was the golden gate bridge. you just got to think that if your problems were so miniscule then you wouldnt be in aa, youd be dead. you know how that say at meetings ,for the person that picked up their first drink, and for the person that put down thier last we pray for them. if you dont believe in god, or a higher power than thats okay but as i understand it , peoples prayers is what got you into the rooms.
just remember, that anything that gets you through the day do it. addicts and alcoholics surely did not walk into the rooms faithful, spiritual, people. the twelve steps leads to that, the twelth step is when our eyes are fully opened. the first four are the foundations of recovery that make us start to believe there is something much bigger, and greater than ourselves out there. so yes even if you dont pray or say the lords prayer, still say something to your higher power for every day clean, because every addict or alcoholic is a miracle. its a miracle that we are here alive today, and its a miracle that we didnt pick up today.

[Zencat]

Welcome to SoberRecovery (SR) colinphw. SR has lots of forums and features...so have a look around...and join us in the spirit of recover.

[UniversesChild]

Originally Posted by colinphw

you just got to think that if your problems were so miniscule then you wouldnt be in aa, youd be dead. addicts and alcoholics surely did not walk into the rooms faithful, spiritual, people. so yes even if you dont pray or say the lords prayer, still say something to your higher power for every day clean, because every addict or alcoholic is a miracle. its a miracle that we are here alive today, and its a miracle that we didnt pick up today.

Wow, that was the most helpful thing I've read in a long time. Thank you Colin.

[murrill]

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." - Soren Kierkegaard

sugErspun: I thought Benjamin Buttons said that!

[Ceres]

^
I likey that. When I start thinking about time in general, it bends my mind. As we can't be completely aware in the present? As in, I am now sitting here. I'm either thinking about what I am going to type next, down to moving my finger. Or contemplating what I just wrote. Trying to pinpoint the absolute present is tricky. Once you think you have it, you don't because it's now in the past.

I guess meditation is the key to this. But I have yet to give it an honest go.

[ananda]

time is a human construct to organize data.....sorry...gotta say it everytime (snirkle)

Time is definately tricky for me....mindfulness practice is important to me and i'm doing only a smidgin of what i need in this area...

However, this present moment..it incaptulates all moments present and future....the differentiations are self created....

....just thinking outloud...

[ElegantlyWasted]

Lords prayer at end of meetings? Not here in the land of Goldwater styled libertarianism. Your geographic situation seems to bleed institutionalized religion into aa meetings a little too much for my tastes as well. All I can say is that you are the consumer of which tools you use for problemed drinking. Try shopping around different meetings to find people that are more simpatico. Also, google SMART, post here and self educate on the actual science of addiction (HBO and the NIAA sites are great and mostly unbiased.
"I don't believe in giving up personal responsibility and handing my problems over to an omnipotent being.". Me too, I actually found the serenity prayer works for this, just take the god thing out, sub in higher purpose (for me it's my ability to have a positive impact on the world, I know I can't save it, but little things add up and do make a difference). For an excellent secular take on spirituality, purpose and meaning... Maybe try "Man's search for meaning.". Welcome, keep posting and best of luck!!

[murrill]

Originally Posted by ElegantlyWasted

Lords prayer at end of meetings? Not here in the land of Goldwater styled libertarianism. Your geographic situation seems to bleed institutionalized religion into aa meetings a little too much for my tastes as well.
"I don't believe in giving up personal responsibility and handing my problems over to an omnipotent being.".

Although I live in what is considered the Bible Belt, I was fortunate enough to get sober in a more liberal, academic community. Rarely did I hear mention of religion or its inflexible dogma. That said, many meetings did close with the Lord's Prayer. Go figure. I always thought it was more symbolic than anything, and after I learned I could make choices I found myself remaining silent.
I don't believe in an interventionist deity, either. My version of "letting go" has meant releasing myself to a universal energy & taking my ego out of the mix. (I am better a relinguishing ego on some days more than others.) It's really quite simple.
I was recently searching for an on-line support (before I found this one) and I stumbled upon an AA-oriented site. Bear in mind that I have defended against AA detractors who call it a religous organization. Anyway, I was pretty shocked at how many of the people there attributed everything good in their lives to HP. If HP got you sober, why did s/he keep you drinking for so long? And if the answer has something to do with HP waiting to be asked...well, that's just a little too arbitrary for my tastes.
Gee....what a relief to find myself among like-minded people.

[keithj]

Step 2 for the non-religious is exactly the same as it is for the religious. The essential requirement is found on pg. 47 of AA's Big Book.

Originally Posted by AA BB, 1st Ed.

Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?
It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built.

Another very useful condition to be met is open-mindedness about what spiritual concepts mean to the individual.

But really, all that is required is a willingness to believe in something. What that something is, is nobody else's business and not very useful in the first place. Like the book says, it has been repeatedly proven that the willingness to believe is all that's required.

If you can't meet that requirement, it is suggested that you look back at the preceeding 46 pages and Dr.'s Opinion. Else go back and see if drinking some more can provide the desperation to become willing.

That's the one thing that the 12 Steps can't give you; the desperation to become willing.