Agnostics, Atheists, and AA

[Pagekeeper]

I found this study on atheists and agnostics and thought some of you might be interested: Atheists, Agnostics, and AA. You must pay for the article in order to read the entire thing, but the conclusions are free and available on several sites, including this one: Results of Study.

In a nutshell, it appears that a belief in God has little or no effect on length of sobriety, but attending 12 step meetings seems to help. The most glaring problem seems to be that those who are atheist/agnostic are less likely to continue attending meetings, for obvious reasons (obvious to me anyway). The group in the most trouble is those who are "undecided"--meaning they don't know if they're agnostic, atheist, spiritual or what. They had the highest rates of relapse and drank the most. I guess there's some merit when they say, "God is everything or nothing." Nothing is okay, but "I don't know" may get you into trouble. For myself, I attend meetings for the support of others who share my problem. It’s been important for me to set boundaries. I used to just let others go on and on about their religious convictions, but now I politely stop them and let them know I’d rather discuss something else.

[ananda]

for me the sentance in the big book "god is everything or god is nothing" is the foundation of my recovery program....where it all begins....my answer is nothing and my path divereged from many.

I have found that as long as i am clear about my beliefs without harping on them constantly i am fairly well accepted and even appreciated in aa.

course as you stated AA is different everywhere.

[Pagekeeper]

I don't even discuss my beliefs, really, unless it plays a role in my recovery--at that point, why shouldn't I discuss it? No one in the meeting has stopped talking about God just because I'm there. Once in a while I'll joke around with people and tell them that I'll "pray to Darwin" for them.

[GlennMatthew]

Originally Posted by Pagekeeper

In a nutshell, it appears that a belief in God has little or no effect on length of sobriety, but attending 12 step meetings seems to help. The most glaring problem seems to be that those who are atheist/agnostic are less likely to continue attending meetings, for obvious reasons (obvious to me anyway). The group in the most trouble is those who are "undecided"--meaning they don't know if they're agnostic, atheist, spiritual or what. They had the highest rates of relapse and drank the most. I guess there's some merit when they say, "God is everything or nothing." Nothing is okay, but "I don't know" may get you into trouble. For myself, I attend meetings for the support of others who share my problem. It’s been important for me to set boundaries. I used to just let others go on and on about their religious convictions, but now I politely stop them and let them know I’d rather discuss something else.

yeah, i agree... as someone who came from a very very anti religious/christian life... it hard to talk about religion. my sponsor just said that he'd rather have me use the list of spiritual terms that he had me do in step two as my concept... and that really helped. i dont like to talk about what i believe in.. because i dont even KNOW what i believe anymore. the second step did NOTHING in the way of philisopical comfort... it made me question everything i believed in... but i was told that was okay. What I believe is an old idea...
anyway, im looking forward to having my 15 posts out of the way, so i can start my own threads... got lots to talk about.

[doorknob]

May you find Him now...

[Pagekeeper]

Originally Posted by GlennMatthew

yeah, i agree... as someone who came from a very very anti religious/christian life... it hard to talk about religion. my sponsor just said that he'd rather have me use the list of spiritual terms that he had me do in step two as my concept... and that really helped. i dont like to talk about what i believe in.. because i dont even KNOW what i believe anymore. the second step did NOTHING in the way of philisopical comfort... it made me question everything i believed in... but i was told that was okay. What I believe is an old idea...
anyway, im looking forward to having my 15 posts out of the way, so i can start my own threads... got lots to talk about.

I'll pray to Darwin for you, Glenn.

[endlesspatience]

I am glad you raised this topic. Let me repeat the fundamental problem with the most basic premise of religion. God does not always respond to human calls for help and support.

I can illustrate this dilemma using the sermon I head in church on Sunday. The reading was from Luke chapter 18 in which Jesus tells his disciples about the need to pray and not to lose heart. The preacher decided to use the story of the Chilean miners to illustrate the point. They prayed to God, they did not lose heart and they were rescued in a miraculous way.

The congregation gave thanks to God for rescuing the men. Several of them also shared how God had answered their prayers. But what about the Chile mining disaster of 1945 which killed more than 300 miners? Didn't those men pray to God to save them when they felt fire ripping through the mine?

Perhaps the most extreme example is the Black Death, which killed about half the population of Europe. At the time, the early 1600s, the continent was extremely religious. Many people sought God's mercy. They gave up all their worldly goods, repented from their sins, threw themselves at the mercy of Christ and STILL watched their families die.

I wanted to interrupt the sermon and make the contrary point but of course I didn't. In fact, I was on my knees saying the Lord's Prayer a few moments later! I suppose I cherish the idea of prayer and that was why I went to church as I do most Sundays.

I will consider it more but first I want to hear how other people feel on the issue. Thoughtful responses, please.

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by Pagekeeper

... Once in a while I'll joke around with people and tell them that I'll "pray to Darwin" for them.

LOL! Once in a while I will say "Who want's to tell God how to run the universe?" when we all join hands at the end of a meeting. It's not that I am an atheist or agnostic. It is just that after saying about a million prayers, I have come to realize that they are mostly selfish wish-lists or arrogant proclamations.

"God is nameless, for no man can either say or understand aught about Him. If I say, God is good, it is not true; nay more; I am good, God is not good. I may even say, I am better than God; for whatever is good, may become better, and whatever may become better, may become best. Now God is not good, for He cannot become better. And if He cannot become better, He cannot become best, for these three things, good, better, and best, are far from God, since He is above all. If I also say, God is wise, it is not true; I am wiser than He. If I also say, God is a Being, it is not true; He is transcendent Being and superessential Nothingness. Concerning this St Augustine says: the best thing that man can say about God is to be able to be silent about Him, from the wisdom of his inner judgement. Therefore be silent and prate not about God, for whenever thou dost prate about God, thou liest, and committest sin. If thou wilt be without sin, prate not about God. Thou canst understand nought about God, for He is above all understanding. A master saith: If I had a God whom I could understand, I would never hold Him to be God."

(MEISTER ECKHART)

[ananda]

I've been thinking quite a bit lately on a basic premise of the step programs...

God is everything or God is nothing.

I tend to agree...this seems very key to me.

The big book then goes on to discuss what we do if god is everything...but...the part after we get sober is filled with directions about how we try to manage our lives to make them better, try to fix the past through amends, and to manage the lives of those coming to AA so they can get sober...a whole lot of manipulation with a good intent seems to go on with this...the very thing it tells us is unsucessful in step 3.

I absolutely believe god is everything or god is nothing...but i don't see that i'm ever gonna know the answer to the implied question in this statement.

I find that buddism's answer seems to fit better...my interpretation of that is...yep god is everything or nothing..we have no way to know the answer..now lets move on...

anyhow my meandering mind this morning.

[johnclavin]

Originally Posted by ananda

I've been thinking quite a bit lately on a basic premise of the step programs...

God is everything or God is nothing.

I tend to agree...this seems very key to me.

Are we talking about god as a supreme diety that removes our difficulties, or are we talking about the word god that can be a variable placeholder for any kind of power greater than ourselves, like gravity, the natural order of the universe and how it changes over time, or the process of getting past our ego?

I just find that statement very ambiguous.

[ananda]

well john...

i mostly rely on using god as a "placemarker" for any sorta HP thingy....

But in this case, I am acepting the bb statement as refering to what I believe is the true meaning of the word "god"


from webster's (first definition listed)
capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe

personally..the God refered to in christianity and refered to in the quote (in my opinion) is

all powerful
all knowing
all loving

That god either IS or he is ISN"T...there is no half way between or it would just be another human being with maybe some special "spidy powers" lol


so god either is everything (since he has the power to do ANYTHING IF he so chooses)

or he is nothing (not actually capable of doing anything...not really in existance)

thus...the statement to me appears a true one...god is everything or nothing, he is or he isn't....there isn't a middle ground in the definition of "god"

Now many use god as a placemarker nothin wrong with that..but in that case...the statement god is everything or nothing actually wouldn't make sense to me...

that probably made things clear as mud LOL

sorry hard stuff to talk about correctly without a PHD in english grammer, definitions and debate

[ananda]

feeling a bit lost...It's sad these threads are so rarely visited...

I'm doing good as far as sobriety goes...not a huge amount of time sober..but there in the deal.

just sorta directionless...trying to find some balance between going to meetings and working the steps with a sponsor...and being true to who I am...

Play acting in the program isn't real recovery and I'm not doing that..just keeping my mouth shut and acknowledging the love of those around me.

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by ananda

or he is nothing...

Perhaps God is "NoThing"?

[Isaiah]

Uh oh, I was browsing through the new posts and your thread is being invaded by a devout Christian!

Kidding, not about the Christian thing but about being invaded.

Though I've been religious longer than I've been in AA I actually share a lot of your opinions of AA. Particularly about what Pagekeeper had to say about withholding beliefs when it has nothing to do with recovery.

I don't go to AA to gain spiritual development; I went to church earlier today for that. By and large people I go to AA with don't bring in God except for the occasional thanksgiving. Yet there are some I know who press that finding God is the final goal of AA (not sobriety?) and who count atheists/agnostics who use other HPs as being "half-formed" or simply "theists waiting to happen."

Even when people invoke "God" half the time I have no idea what they mean. A very good friend in AA, who sponsored me temporarily is one of those AAers I just mentioned. His frequent claim is that he "talks to God" and God tells him what to do. If that ever became my experience I'd probably ask for anti-psychotic drugs.

Whether or not and how to use "god" in your recovery speak is something I can understand (I was an atheist for a long, long time.) Yet even those of us who use the term theistically don't do so on common ground. More reason I think for the whole program to be more inclusive.

[Zencat]

Originally Posted by Nans

thus...the statement to me appears a true one...god is everything or nothing, he is or he isn't....there isn't a middle ground in the definition of "god"

As it is now with me, I'm using the Pantheism understanding that "God is everything and everything is God". I don't find it necessary to define this understanding other that it makes sense and is helpful. I wont defend my understanding of God, as it is clear to me that there will be others that understand and some others won't. I'm equally pleased either way. Because I'm not going to try to convert others over to my beliefs. I'll leave that up to the proselytizers of religion.

"When the Ten Thousand things are viewed in their oneness, we return to the Origin and remain where we have always been." -Sen T'sen

[houdini56]

I'm in the sorting out process and as such I really enjoy these threads.

For almost 20 years I stayed clean and sober in AA with a Higher Power which I really believed I saw evidence of in my life. A number of years ago I realized I was specifically not a Christian, but that wasn't a big problem in our meetings.

In the last few years I have undergone another major "psychic change" and today I consider myself a non-theist.

About the same time I was sorting that out I was also starting to feel that the A.A. fellowship didn't fit me well anymore on a few other levels (or I didn't fit with them?). Between those two realizations I got pretty darn uncomfortable. I've dropped way back on my meetings and that doesn't seem to be an issue in my life right now. I live in a small rural town and there's no Smart or RR or anything else here...well, that's not true, there's church group recovery available, but other than that it's AA or you're on your own.

I see people here talking about going to agnostic AA meetings and I really wish I had that available. For the time being I'm exploring what's available online - hence my being here!

I read the Humanist version of the 12-steps and for the most part I thought that was right on. I feel like I really need to find a way to re-direct because when I look at the second and third step now its like, okay, cross those off...now what? When I sit in meetings today I spend more time squirming in my chair with some of the dogma than I do getting anything out of it.

I don't know how much sense I'm making here, like I said I'm in transition and still sorting things out. But that's life, isn't it? Never a dull moment. Thanks for listening.

[houdini56]

Well, leave it to an alkie to need to leave a p.s...but if course I really need to say this, lol!

I credit the 12-step program with my 22 years clean and sober. I credit the local A.A. fellowship for helping me to understand those steps to the best of my ability each day, and my sponsor(s) for motivating me with a foot in my bum when necessary. I feel like I owe A.A. credit for most of what is good in my life today, and its a damn good life.

I still believe that most people who are ready to do the work--whatever that work might turn out to be for them--can find recovery in A.A., and I would recommend A.A. to anyone struggling with booze.

Having said that....my relationship with the steps and the Fellowship is not the same today as it was in the first 5 or 10 years...my perspective is not the same, and maybe my needs aren't the same.

But I re-read my post and I felt like I wasn't giving credit where credit is due so had to get another 2-cents in.

[Zencat]

I think the Humanist version of the 12-steps is genius.

AA dose have a lot to offer for the newbies. Healthy group dynamics, clear instructions and supportive sober friendships or mentoring with plenty of meetings to get to...make good model for alcohol addiction treatment.

[houdini56]

Originally Posted by Zencat

AA dose have a lot to offer for the newbies. Healthy group dynamics, clear instructions and supportive sober friendships or mentoring with plenty of meetings to get to...make good model for alcohol addiction treatment.

Yes! exactly! I think AA serves the person who needs support to get sober, and to learn how to live sober...I think the fellowship aspect of it is invaluable in many ways...but today I think that for some people after being in sobriety for x-number of years they may find it limiting, as I do today. I need to go beyond the limitations of AA, while at the same time I can see that some of those limitations are absolutely necessary for the newcomers.

Thanks much, zencat, for sharing part of your story with me. When I think about how limited my social skills were, especially in terms of just being real with other people, I'm still blown away at the level of honest sharing I'm able to do with others in recovery, and even more amazed that they are willing to share their "stuff" with me. To me its one of the most unexpected and precious gifts I've gotten out of recovery.

[Zencat]

Originally Posted by houdini

Thanks much, zencat, for sharing part of your story with me. When I think about how limited my social skills were, especially in terms of just being real with other people, I'm still blown away at the level of honest sharing I'm able to do with others in recovery, and even more amazed that they are willing to share their "stuff" with me. To me its one of the most unexpected and precious gifts I've gotten out of recovery

Same here. I see that being in recovery with my fellows gives me the motivation to practice being genuine. After all addiction taught me to be deceitful and made me untrustworthy.

Originally Posted by houdini

...for some people after being in sobriety for x-number of years they may find it limiting, as I do today. I need to go beyond the limitations of AA,...

I find AA has a lot in common with other faith-based practices. Although these practices are easy acceptable to most, I find them like a closed system, that is to say they dont allow new information in. I need in my life some room for new ideas and practices that are evolving out of my need to expand my belief system.

[houdini56]

I'm feeling pretty hopeful about what's available in terms of secular recovery, at least online (which is about the only option I have living where I do). I was just checking out the LifeRing website and might try one of their meetings at some point. And the more I look around these forums here at SR the more cool stuff I'm finding. I've been feeling pretty isolated from sober fellowship....and I was accepting that as just part of the journey right now...but I'm feeling much less isolated tonight. Cool.

[tommyl74]

I have recently found some secular recovery sites online as well. They are definitely interesting. The greatest support that I have around here are NA meetings, my sponsor and my support network...I love these guys. But they are all xtian. I am not. And I let it be known, because there may be others like me in our meetings. I am from a small area...average meeting attendance is 4-5 people. It definitely raises some questions for me as I walk through the steps, and I am hoping to find some support here for that. I am glad to be here and happy to find that I am truly not alone.

Thanks!

[habschon]

I, too, am finding it necessary to "edit" quite a bit as I sit in AA meetings. Just celebrated 6 years sober... grateful to have found this resource and appreciate this "thread" -- although am not completely sure what a "thread" is! Learning...

[Zencat]

Welcome to SoberRecovery habschon. And a big congrats on your sober time.

A thread is the string of posts that follow the the first post.

[Tryin2Recover]

Originally Posted by houdini56

I'm in the sorting out process and as such I really enjoy these threads.

For almost 20 years I stayed clean and sober in AA with a Higher Power which I really believed I saw evidence of in my life. A number of years ago I realized I was specifically not a Christian, but that wasn't a big problem in our meetings.

In the last few years I have undergone another major "psychic change" and today I consider myself a non-theist.

About the same time I was sorting that out I was also starting to feel that the A.A. fellowship didn't fit me well anymore on a few other levels (or I didn't fit with them?). Between those two realizations I got pretty darn uncomfortable. I've dropped way back on my meetings and that doesn't seem to be an issue in my life right now. I live in a small rural town and there's no Smart or RR or anything else here...well, that's not true, there's church group recovery available, but other than that it's AA or you're on your own.

I see people here talking about going to agnostic AA meetings and I really wish I had that available. For the time being I'm exploring what's available online - hence my being here!

I read the Humanist version of the 12-steps and for the most part I thought that was right on. I feel like I really need to find a way to re-direct because when I look at the second and third step now its like, okay, cross those off...now what? When I sit in meetings today I spend more time squirming in my chair with some of the dogma than I do getting anything out of it.

I don't know how much sense I'm making here, like I said I'm in transition and still sorting things out. But that's life, isn't it? Never a dull moment. Thanks for listening.

Thanks for reminding me that I am not unique, about anything. You have basically described my exact situation, except I am just shy of 3 years sobriety. I owe it all to AA, they taught me everything I know about recovery and my new way of life. And for the last nearly 3 years I believed there was a higher power in my life; maybe god, maybe not, but I didnt have to figure that out and was ok with it. Now something is urging me to figure it out, and the more I try the less I believe in the Higher Power. I had nobody to talk to about it, didnt know how to bring it up to my sponsor, or other very close friends I had made in AA. It was very scary and uncomfortable the first few days I started having these questions and doubts, and being the extremist that I can be I flew off the handle and started to get angry, and resentful. I Felt I had been tricked by AAs, brainwashed into religion. I have since mellowed out, rediscovered my gratitude, and learned that with an open mind I can still find recovery in AA, and share my experience with others who are not as fortunate as I to have yet experienced some of the promises of recovery.