Higher Power?

[beardfish]

This may be the wrong place to post this, but...you're still gonna read it, so I guess that doesn't matter. I got to thinking a little bit about the whole "higher power" concept of AA, and how they claim to not be religious. I personally don't think there is a difference between being religious and being spiritual. They always say "The god of your understanding", (at least they always did at the meetings I went to). That's another thing....anytime someone makes a good anti-AA argument people are always quick to say "I don't know what AA you went to, but that wasn't the way it was with me.." WTF!! I've been to many many many AA meetings...and they are all the same.
It's ok for you to be spiritual/religious...I have no problem with that. My problem begins with the fact that these people tell you that you don't have to believe in any kind of god or omnipotent being...(AKA a "higher power", for those of us who pay attention to the language we use).
Maybe it was because I was once at a VA against my will and being forced to attend AA meetings there (that wasn't the only place I've been to AA, but definitely the strangest). One of the VA counselors told me "You ain't gotta believe in god son...just a higher power."
I said "What does that mean?"
He said "Just something thats stronger than you." (Now is where it gets weird).
He then points to a wooden chair and says "That chair could be your higher power."
I reply "How?"
He says "I bet that chair hasn't had a drink today."
After he said that, I tried my best not to stab him in the eyes with my pen. Instead I got up and moved to the other side of the room while thinking to myself "No sh*t the goddamn chair hasn't had a drink...its a f*ckin inanimate object...the only thing its "had" is peoples asses sitting on it."
I guess no one could really express my thoughts better than the late George Carlin when he said "Just think how stupid the average person is...then realize half of them are stupider than that."

[bugsworth]

George Carlin certainly had a way with words!!

I'm sorry but I must admit I laughed out loud when you said you tried your best not to stab him in the eye...lol...crazy sometimes the explanations people can be given.

I prefer to rely on an internal source than an external one, that way I am in charge!

I do understand it can be frustrating after attending many meetings when people say "That's not aa" or "that's not the aa I know." Unfortunately it is the aa you and I know.

Bottom line..... find what works for you and work the hell out of it!!

[CarolD]

...It's ok to be anti something
but more interesting and productive to be for something else.

JMO

[windysan]

Chapter to the Agnostic.

May you find him now.

LOL

[LogCabin]

LOL...May you find HIM now.

Oh yes, I agree it is hard to get past the hypocrisy of AA and all religions. I so understand.

But I certainly had to find a way to save my own butt.

The thing is...just keep listening. I read the chapter to the Agnostic 4 years ago. And then I read it again a couple months ago. I was STILL struggling with the religious double-speak of AA, but I wanted to find someway to get over it, and stop it from interfering with my own recovery. And I discovered that I was able to read some new ideas that I had not read before because I was so blinded by the "God" thing.

What I have learned is that it is true that the folks who call thier God, "Him", and talk about how loving he is to them, are a bit more open and vocal about it..there are many of us who do have a different definition of what our HP is to us. Sometimes we mention it, and sometimes we don't.

I finally was able to hold onto a definition of a HP that works for me. I don't have some "thinking god" out there. I don't beleive it loves me, or hates me. Mine doesn't "think". And I don't beleive in an heaven or hell (Afterlife).

My HP is the Universe. It is something that is bigger than me. It is alive..growing, moving, and constantly changing. I can't explain it as I don't know what is beyond the universe and those billions and billions of galaxies. And I can't explain how it began. It is here, and I'm a part of it. That is all I know.

And lastly...I can't tell what is going to happen in the future. I have to accept it, and not trip on it.

I also hate the "Heck, you can make your HP a doorknob if you want". That is also so insulting to me. No doorknob is going to stop me from walking out the door to get a drink...unless it is broken and locked.

Anyway...the people of recovery are also my HP. They have given me all kinds of ways of seeing my addictions, and my problems, and they so completly understand my problem. We are pretty much all on the same page with that one.

I had to stop fighting and struggling with the God thing of AA, and find a way to let it work for me. For I just want to live, and live clean and sober. And I have learned that I sometimes have a clearer understanding of what my HP is than some folks who have a "thinking God" since I had to spend so many years on figuring this all out.

[windysan]

I just changed my behaviors. I have to keep it simple. Once I start thinking about religion my head starts aching.

[dancinggirl]

I know this is a serious topic....but the "stab him in the eye" really got me laughing. Thank you for making my Day Four easier....you've made a big difference to ME today!

[Peter]

Originally Posted by LogCabin

My HP is the Universe. It is something that is bigger than me. It is alive..growing, moving, and constantly changing. I can't explain it as I don't know what is beyond the universe and those billions and billions of galaxies. And I can't explain how it began. It is here, and I'm a part of it. That is all I know.

My beliefs are very similar to your own. But it was AA that led to the understanding I now have of God.

I was able to find a way to make the HP thing work for me . I was desperate, I was out of time and I needed to find a way quiick to save my ass.

Yes the AA literature is full of Spiritual talk. (I still hesitate to use the word religious) and, because of AA's founding members own deep religious beliefs I think he/they way have tried a little too hard to steer us down the path of belief in a "Christian" God.

But there is a part in the literature too that asks me to "choose the Higher Power of my own understanding" and that was the fulcrum that allowed me to move the stone of my religious prejudice. All I needed was a crack in the door of faith and I was through it in a flash.

We can very easily be confused by all the spiritual "ideas" we hear in AA meetings, but if we focus on the literature of AA with it's Steps and Traditions we can begin to understand that we can find a way to make it(believing in a HP) work.

For those of us who like to think that The Chapter to the Agnostics is defining proof that AA is religious and thus incapable of working for persons with secular beliefs I ask them to employ a little bit of Openmindedness and Willingness and read Bills Story in Chapter one.

I came to AA a devout Atheist.Ironically I believe this turned out to be of great benefit to me becuse by then i had long turned my back on any traditional beliefs about God. (I grew up Roman Catholic). perhaps i was able to start over with a "clean slate". One thing I do know about my own belifs today is that Ican contemplate God even in the swirling neutrons and electrons af an inanimate chair or a doorknob that doesn't work.

For those of us that are Spiritually bankrupt believing in a simple chair may not be such a bad place to start after all.From there we can expand our belief outward to unknown galaxies

[windysan]

.....maybe one of those really nice Laz-E-Boy recliners with the massage thingie built in....

[Peter]

Lol. Heck why not?

[Peter]

Or no, perhaps it would be best to start with something simpler like a kitchen stool and work outwards from there....

[Not highTEK]

It's not that hard everyone! Religion is for people that don't want to go to hell that's the God dogma. Spirituality is for people who don't want to go back to hell! That's AA. A higher power is anything stronger than you. My friend your problem sounds like you refuse to give self will and rely/trust in something else for help.

[RobbyRobot]

Originally Posted by beardfish

One of the VA counselors told me "You ain't gotta believe in god son...just a higher power."
I said "What does that mean?"
He said "Just something thats stronger than you." (Now is where it gets weird).
He then points to a wooden chair and says "That chair could be your higher power."
I reply "How?"
He says "I bet that chair hasn't had a drink today."
After he said that, I tried my best not to stab him in the eyes with my pen. Instead I got up and moved to the other side of the room while thinking to myself "No sh*t the goddamn chair hasn't had a drink...its a f*ckin inanimate object...the only thing its "had" is peoples asses sitting on it."
I guess no one could really express my thoughts better than the late George Carlin when he said "Just think how stupid the average person is...then realize half of them are stupider than that."

hahaha, yeah life is like that, eh. i like simple too and i guess i care more about authenticity of addicts than i do about whats right or wrong in the universe. some folks just don't jive with the "higher power experience" and thats all cool. its worse to be a hyprocrite dancing like a fool, when its their own funeral march playing. nobody likes a hypocrite much anyways.

course, not everyone who says they don't believe is telling the truth either. some addicts talk all pretty how they have some secret eternal lock on sanity denouncing higher powers left and right, while they proudly dictate from their "own throne" of higher powerness, with their deep delusion and self-denial proudly displayed making me wanna hurl something awful.

i'm not saying anything about you here, i'm just posting too. i have discoverd life ain't as dumb, blind, or stupid as some folk pretend it should be. I love george carlin because he was authentic. i laughed because he was funny.

at the end of the day, if we can lay our heads down to sleep and we actually want to wake up alive the next day, then we got something worth smilin about. and it really don't matter the details of how the soup got to be tasting so good as long as there's enough to go around.

my own story sweetly embraces the "experience", and so i'm dancing just as fast as i can. heh. put another song on that jukebox my friend, hahaha. rock on.

[windysan]

1. Don't do drugs
2. See Step 1

[RobbyRobot]

[bugsworth]

No disrespect Not highTEK but that whole "religion is for people who don't want to go to hell" is just aa nonsense. Plenty of people who are not alcoholics have experienced events in their lives that would be considered hellish. We don't have the market in that regard.

I understand why aa members state aa is not religious...it is one mantra that is very rarely strayed from. I heard this message from my very first meeting. If you hear it over and over again ad nauseam it becomes impossible to refute.

For many people turning your will and your life over to something you made up seems as ridiculous as writing a note to Santa at Christmas time. If aa is not religious it then borders on superstitious...everyone has their own personal HP who, until they followed Bill Wilsons steps, let them rot in the misery of alcoholism. Then this HP (it can be anything you care to dream up) will relieve you of your alcoholism one day at a time as long as you turn your will and life over to it daily and practice the 12 steps in all your affairs.

I decided to take back my life. I screwed it up, it is my responsibility to fix it. I too changed my behavior including people, places and things. I work hard at staying focused on all that I can achieve and rely on myself to stay sober.

[windysan]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

No disrespect Not highTEK but that whole "religion is for people who don't want to go to hell" is just aa nonsense. Plenty of people who are not alcoholics have experienced events in their lives that would be considered hellish. We don't have the market in that regard.

I understand why aa members state aa is not religious...it is one mantra that is very rarely strayed from. I heard this message from my very first meeting. If you hear it over and over again ad nauseam it becomes impossible to refute.

For many people turning your will and your life over to something you made up seems as ridiculous as writing a note to Santa at Christmas time. If aa is not religious it then borders on superstitious...everyone has their own personal HP who, until they followed Bill Wilsons steps, let them rot in the misery of alcoholism. Then