Higher Power? - Page 2 - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

windysan · 07-16-2008, 05:08 PM

Ohhhhmmmmmmmmmmm..UGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH.....GRRUUUNNNNT TTT.......Ohhmmmmm mani padme........UGGGHHHHHH !!

ananda · 07-16-2008, 05:08 PM

i have a lot of higher powers none of which are god as i understand the definition of god.

It just means things that have more power in some respect than me. I can control my actions and effect others...but others do effect my environment too.

law of cause and effect is my bigest higher power.

bugs and nolonger...i could relate to alot of your posts!

thanks for sharing with me in this forum it is helping me alot.

zencat · 07-16-2008, 05:14 PM

Being in a room full of helpful people I can understand. Its simple and immediately relevant to my desires for sobriety. Sure having stools to sit on during the meeting is nice and a recliner would be the best. I'll settle for chairs.

As for higher powers or God and the like, I'll pass. For me there is just too much funky stuff attached to that in my head. To me its like going to a recovery meeting and asking people to choose a political party or political ideology then tell them to keep it simple so we can start on recovery....LOL.

zencat · 07-16-2008, 05:19 PM

windysan · 07-16-2008, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zencat

LOLOL

bugsworth · 07-17-2008, 05:32 AM

ananda, the law of cause and effect is a great concept in dealing with alcohol abuse, I think many people ignore or just don't want to acknowledge the damage that drinking alcohol is doing. However I don't think it has the powers to remove character defects nor can one pray to it for guidance. The HP of aa needs to be an omnipotent entity, it needs to be able to take your will and run your life. The law of cause and effect is more scientific than superstitious.

Zencat, I had to chuckle when you mentioned keeping it simple. It seems that what would be truly keeping it simple would be for aa to state it is religious based....which Wilson stated to be true very early on in aa's conception. It is bizarre how some folks still want to state it is not after it's founder stated it is.

That chair creeps me out!

ananda · 07-17-2008, 05:59 AM

hey bugsy...thanks....I guess for me cause and effect tells me that if i take certain actions there will be certain results (although other things will effect it too) so actions i take can aid in the removal of defects. And i beleive that walking a spiritual path based on karma, right actions, etc. I will recieve "help" in that things will change. If I try to be guided by correct thinking, correct action, correct speach, etc. It guides me toward a new way of life. Just in my groups, they seem to accept that my higherpower doesn't take over my will. So the 12 steps don't cause me too much trouble as long as i remember what I believe and let others do it there way. Don't know if any of that makes since to you....but thought you would be interested...I always enjoy talking with you!

bugsworth · 07-17-2008, 06:23 AM

I absolutely agree with you regarding the power of cause and effect, if I think my actions through most times I can gauge the results of my behavior based on prior experience. It takes practice to step back from situations and assess what results will be obtained from our behavior before we act.

I like what you say regarding correct thinking, action and speech. Much of my internal dialog needed a radical change. Once I started changing those three elements my whole perception changed.

It sounds like you have found a very nice group of people to share your journey with, and I am always interested in what you have to say!

zencat · 07-17-2008, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bugsworth

The HP of aa needs to be an omnipotent entity, it needs to be able to take your will and run your life.

So true. I would need to completely scrap my current belief system. Then build one from scratch or follow an established one. I'm sure I could adjust my new beliefs to fit the omnipotent requirement by suspending my old idea's of reality. Now I'm free to attribute divine powers to a chair. I know me, so most likely I would have to incorporate some punishment (flagellation) for disbelief in the all powerful 'Chair' i.e., God/HP . This transformation may take a life time with extreme effort and ritual. I think I would include some wine or psychedelic herb into the ritual to help me out....lol

bugsworth · 07-17-2008, 08:49 AM

I hear you Zen, for me it is more important to stay true to my belief system and my religion thus I work on my sobriety separately. I too would have spent way more time trying to reconcile some of the things I heard in the rooms with 40 years of life's experience.

As far as the psychedelics are concerned, it has been rumored using them can bring upon great spiritual awakenings. LOL I think I'll pass!

LogCabin · 07-17-2008, 09:26 AM

The 6th and 7th steps rub me the wrong way too, but I just look at it in the way that works for me.

Step 4...I write all my resentments, fears, and harms to others.
Step 5...I share with my sponsor-pal these things
Step 6...Willing to have "HIM" remove these short-coming.
Step 7...Ask "HIM" to remove them.

Ok...ok...since I already don't have a "thinking" HP...doing step 6 and 7 is just not going to work for me.

4. However, I am willing to look at these short-comings of mine because it helps me see what may be causing me problems. And instead of running away from these issues..I am able to really see them.

5. No problem...talking it out, and sharing all these deeply buried issues is good for me. It releases so much hurt and pain, and I am no longer afraid to see it. And I accept it for what was. The past can't hurt me anymore. And I can't change it. So I become peaceful because I can accept it.

6 and 7 - The only way that these "short-comings are going to stop repeating themselves is by me having a personal awareness of them. I'm really really good at denial - denial protected me as a child, and I wear it like a coat. But what once protected me, is now hurting me.

But once I can no longer deny that I have these "issues"...and..yes....even Me...personality flaws...eek gags. (I know, I know, I can't beleive it either) Anyway..back to being serious. Step 4 and 5 are the important parts of these 4 steps. Just doing this exercise is what gave me peace and understanding. Asking some entity in the sky to remove them is not going to work for me.

And then skipping to step 10 is just a good idea to keep on top of my faulty thinking. I have learned to really think about what I am thinking...

(Step 8 and 9 are very easy for me. I never caused to much harm and damage to others than to myself. And for those that have been harmed by my drinking and drugging just want to see me get sober and stay that way. And I talk to them on a continuous basis about what was, and what is. I have already made amends.)

And 11, and 12...are continuous...

Oops, gotta go.

bugsworth · 07-17-2008, 12:03 PM

Log Cabin, Great post!

The fact that you left out any kind of deity is remarkable. I do wonder however how this version and application of the steps would be viewed by aa fundamentalists. I know every time I post anything about choice and personal power I get a myriad of responses including how my views may kill "true" alcoholics.

If I might ask....have you ever shared in a meeting your dislike of steps 6 & 7?

After attending meetings for 10 months myself I can't imagine the response would be positive.

Again thanks for the post.

LogCabin · 07-17-2008, 12:52 PM

Where I live it is no problem. I live in a very open-minded, multi-religion, multi-culture city. (But yeah...a sick part of me would love to hit an AA meeting in the Midwest bible belt. And I have been told my heathen soul is going straight to hell...LOL. I laugh because I don't beleive I have a soul and I don't beleive in hell, and nobody can really say what happens when we die anyway).

The main thing is that I don't really care if I offend anyone with my beliefs. That is thier issue if I do. I have had to work on my issues regarding religion in order to find and keep sober. I had to stop being offended by thier beliefs. We all need to be respectful of each other's belief systems. I understand that having a thinking god, and thinking that there is a after-life where you meet up again with all your loved one, is very comforting to many. I would not want to interfere with that.

So I'm doing the right thing as far as I am concerned. And I believe the steps are a very useful therapeutic tool.

Funny enough I just read my Daily Buddhist digest I get in my email, and this is what it said... Dang! I just said that! (I have to think before speaking and really look at my feelings.)

"Don't forget to bring the good experiences of meditation into your daily activities. Instead of acting and reacting impulsively and following your thoughts and feelings here and there, watch your mind carefully, be aware, and try to deal skillfully with problems as they arise. If you can do this each day, your meditation will have been successful.

-Kathleen McDonald, "How to Meditate"

No mention of a God. Religion, and the study of religion, has many useful tools to help the suffering heart and mind. I beleive in honesty, love, compassion, and respect. Nothing wrong with that.

ananda · 07-17-2008, 01:01 PM

Thanks log cabin...you summed things up fairly welll

And Gee....I am from the midwest bible belt and we have a lot of really ridgid bible and big book thumpers!!!!

I'm surviving them just fine (He he he)

Nawww...for all their thumping they seem to have agreed that my program is working for me and so they just accept it as something that must work for some people and leave me alone about it....I guess i get most of what their spiritual expereinces are, they just describe it differently than me.

LogCabin · 07-17-2008, 01:18 PM

You will find many open-minded folks in the bb. We're all over the place! LOL!

RufusACanal · 07-17-2008, 01:53 PM

Never know where a bad penny might show up!

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

I am old school AA with what I would like to think is an eye to the future. Whether there actually is or is not a Greater Power is of no issue to me, though in my quiet moments alone when I have the idea that there could be a Greater Power, I find peace. In my conversations to others, I act according to this belief. I believe in the idea that there could be something larger, something more diverse, something beyond my comprehension and today and that is enough for me. For my ease, I prefer to use the terms Greater Power and sometimes God; further from agnosticism and closer to spiritualism.

Since my first AA meeting, I understood intellectually the Steps. I readily grasped the necessity for complete change in my life, though I was unwilling to change until the grift ran its course; I wasn’t done having fun, no matter how short the moments of that fun might have been. Now, I have found the need to move beyond the intellectual pitfalls to the warm embrace of continuity. You see, my mortality brings me closer to something greater for I desire to be more than just a moment in time. Say what you will for you, but for me I would wish for continuation however unknown it may be.

Steps Six and Seven are the cumulation of each pledge in Steps One, Two and Three and as defined and shared in Four and Five; that I am no longer the center of the universe and that the greater good of others outweighs my greater good. I am preparing myself to make amends, without denial, without excuses, without justifications. I stand ready to face all in my life, ready to provide the apology and the changed man. The need for reinvention departs me in this respect. I simply accept and move forward.

bugsworth · 07-17-2008, 01:55 PM

LogCabin, I like your program, sounds a bit like mine. LOL

I applaud your ability to stick with aa even though you do not believe in its basic tenant. I tried for a while, I found it to be more detrimental than helpful.

The bottom line is there are as many paths to sobriety as there are people to walk them. No two can possibly be the same.

07-16-2008, 05:14 PM	#28 (permalink)
zencat Double Trouble Addict Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Ventura Co. California USA Posts: 603	Being in a room full of helpful people I can understand. Its simple and immediately relevant to my desires for sobriety. Sure having stools to sit on during the meeting is nice and a recliner would be the best. I'll settle for chairs. As for higher powers or God and the like, I'll pass. For me there is just too much funky stuff attached to that in my head. To me its like going to a recovery meeting and asking people to choose a political party or political ideology then tell them to keep it simple so we can start on recovery....LOL.
	__________________ Just for today I choose not to use. My best thinking keeps me in recovery.

07-16-2008, 05:19 PM	#29 (permalink)
zencat Double Trouble Addict Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Ventura Co. California USA Posts: 603
	__________________ Just for today I choose not to use. My best thinking keeps me in recovery.

07-17-2008, 05:32 AM	#31 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 931	ananda, the law of cause and effect is a great concept in dealing with alcohol abuse, I think many people ignore or just don't want to acknowledge the damage that drinking alcohol is doing. However I don't think it has the powers to remove character defects nor can one pray to it for guidance. The HP of aa needs to be an omnipotent entity, it needs to be able to take your will and run your life. The law of cause and effect is more scientific than superstitious. Zencat, I had to chuckle when you mentioned keeping it simple. It seems that what would be truly keeping it simple would be for aa to state it is religious based....which Wilson stated to be true very early on in aa's conception. It is bizarre how some folks still want to state it is not after it's founder stated it is. That chair creeps me out!
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 931

07-17-2008, 06:23 AM	#33 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 931	I absolutely agree with you regarding the power of cause and effect, if I think my actions through most times I can gauge the results of my behavior based on prior experience. It takes practice to step back from situations and assess what results will be obtained from our behavior before we act. I like what you say regarding correct thinking, action and speech. Much of my internal dialog needed a radical change. Once I started changing those three elements my whole perception changed. It sounds like you have found a very nice group of people to share your journey with, and I am always interested in what you have to say!
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 931

07-17-2008, 08:49 AM	#35 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 931	I hear you Zen, for me it is more important to stay true to my belief system and my religion thus I work on my sobriety separately. I too would have spent way more time trying to reconcile some of the things I heard in the rooms with 40 years of life's experience. As far as the psychedelics are concerned, it has been rumored using them can bring upon great spiritual awakenings. LOL I think I'll pass!
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 931

07-16-2008, 05:08 PM	#26 (permalink)
windysan Large Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: La Posts: 2,650	Ohhhhmmmmmmmmmmm..UGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH.....GRRUUUNNNNT TTT.......Ohhmmmmm mani padme........UGGGHHHHHH !!

07-16-2008, 05:08 PM	#27 (permalink)
ananda Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Somewhere Left of Left Posts: 3,530	i have a lot of higher powers none of which are god as i understand the definition of god. It just means things that have more power in some respect than me. I can control my actions and effect others...but others do effect my environment too. law of cause and effect is my bigest higher power. bugs and nolonger...i could relate to alot of your posts! thanks for sharing with me in this forum it is helping me alot.

07-17-2008, 05:59 AM	#32 (permalink)
ananda Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Somewhere Left of Left Posts: 3,530	hey bugsy...thanks....I guess for me cause and effect tells me that if i take certain actions there will be certain results (although other things will effect it too) so actions i take can aid in the removal of defects. And i beleive that walking a spiritual path based on karma, right actions, etc. I will recieve "help" in that things will change. If I try to be guided by correct thinking, correct action, correct speach, etc. It guides me toward a new way of life. Just in my groups, they seem to accept that my higherpower doesn't take over my will. So the 12 steps don't cause me too much trouble as long as i remember what I believe and let others do it there way. Don't know if any of that makes since to you....but thought you would be interested...I always enjoy talking with you!

07-17-2008, 09:26 AM	#36 (permalink)
LogCabin Seriously Fun! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: California coast Posts: 396	The 6th and 7th steps rub me the wrong way too, but I just look at it in the way that works for me. Step 4...I write all my resentments, fears, and harms to others. Step 5...I share with my sponsor-pal these things Step 6...Willing to have "HIM" remove these short-coming. Step 7...Ask "HIM" to remove them. Ok...ok...since I already don't have a "thinking" HP...doing step 6 and 7 is just not going to work for me. 4. However, I am willing to look at these short-comings of mine because it helps me see what may be causing me problems. And instead of running away from these issues..I am able to really see them. 5. No problem...talking it out, and sharing all these deeply buried issues is good for me. It releases so much hurt and pain, and I am no longer afraid to see it. And I accept it for what was. The past can't hurt me anymore. And I can't change it. So I become peaceful because I can accept it. 6 and 7 - The only way that these "short-comings are going to stop repeating themselves is by me having a personal awareness of them. I'm really really good at denial - denial protected me as a child, and I wear it like a coat. But what once protected me, is now hurting me. But once I can no longer deny that I have these "issues"...and..yes....even Me...personality flaws...eek gags. (I know, I know, I can't beleive it either) Anyway..back to being serious. Step 4 and 5 are the important parts of these 4 steps. Just doing this exercise is what gave me peace and understanding. Asking some entity in the sky to remove them is not going to work for me. And then skipping to step 10 is just a good idea to keep on top of my faulty thinking. I have learned to really think about what I am thinking... (Step 8 and 9 are very easy for me. I never caused to much harm and damage to others than to myself. And for those that have been harmed by my drinking and drugging just want to see me get sober and stay that way. And I talk to them on a continuous basis about what was, and what is. I have already made amends.) And 11, and 12...are continuous... Oops, gotta go.

07-17-2008, 12:03 PM	#37 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 931	Log Cabin, Great post! The fact that you left out any kind of deity is remarkable. I do wonder however how this version and application of the steps would be viewed by aa fundamentalists. I know every time I post anything about choice and personal power I get a myriad of responses including how my views may kill "true" alcoholics. If I might ask....have you ever shared in a meeting your dislike of steps 6 & 7? After attending meetings for 10 months myself I can't imagine the response would be positive. Again thanks for the post.
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 931

07-17-2008, 12:52 PM	#38 (permalink)
LogCabin Seriously Fun! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: California coast Posts: 396	Where I live it is no problem. I live in a very open-minded, multi-religion, multi-culture city. (But yeah...a sick part of me would love to hit an AA meeting in the Midwest bible belt. And I have been told my heathen soul is going straight to hell...LOL. I laugh because I don't beleive I have a soul and I don't beleive in hell, and nobody can really say what happens when we die anyway). The main thing is that I don't really care if I offend anyone with my beliefs. That is thier issue if I do. I have had to work on my issues regarding religion in order to find and keep sober. I had to stop being offended by thier beliefs. We all need to be respectful of each other's belief systems. I understand that having a thinking god, and thinking that there is a after-life where you meet up again with all your loved one, is very comforting to many. I would not want to interfere with that. So I'm doing the right thing as far as I am concerned. And I believe the steps are a very useful therapeutic tool. Funny enough I just read my Daily Buddhist digest I get in my email, and this is what it said... Dang! I just said that! (I have to think before speaking and really look at my feelings.) "Don't forget to bring the good experiences of meditation into your daily activities. Instead of acting and reacting impulsively and following your thoughts and feelings here and there, watch your mind carefully, be aware, and try to deal skillfully with problems as they arise. If you can do this each day, your meditation will have been successful. -Kathleen McDonald, "How to Meditate" No mention of a God. Religion, and the study of religion, has many useful tools to help the suffering heart and mind. I beleive in honesty, love, compassion, and respect. Nothing wrong with that.

07-17-2008, 01:01 PM	#39 (permalink)
ananda Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Somewhere Left of Left Posts: 3,530	Thanks log cabin...you summed things up fairly welll And Gee....I am from the midwest bible belt and we have a lot of really ridgid bible and big book thumpers!!!! I'm surviving them just fine (He he he) Nawww...for all their thumping they seem to have agreed that my program is working for me and so they just accept it as something that must work for some people and leave me alone about it....I guess i get most of what their spiritual expereinces are, they just describe it differently than me.

07-17-2008, 01:18 PM	#40 (permalink)
LogCabin Seriously Fun! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: California coast Posts: 396	You will find many open-minded folks in the bb. We're all over the place! LOL!

07-17-2008, 01:53 PM	#41 (permalink)
RufusACanal NCN Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,081	Never know where a bad penny might show up! 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. I am old school AA with what I would like to think is an eye to the future. Whether there actually is or is not a Greater Power is of no issue to me, though in my quiet moments alone when I have the idea that there could be a Greater Power, I find peace. In my conversations to others, I act according to this belief. I believe in the idea that there could be something larger, something more diverse, something beyond my comprehension and today and that is enough for me. For my ease, I prefer to use the terms Greater Power and sometimes God; further from agnosticism and closer to spiritualism. Since my first AA meeting, I understood intellectually the Steps. I readily grasped the necessity for complete change in my life, though I was unwilling to change until the grift ran its course; I wasn’t done having fun, no matter how short the moments of that fun might have been. Now, I have found the need to move beyond the intellectual pitfalls to the warm embrace of continuity. You see, my mortality brings me closer to something greater for I desire to be more than just a moment in time. Say what you will for you, but for me I would wish for continuation however unknown it may be. Steps Six and Seven are the cumulation of each pledge in Steps One, Two and Three and as defined and shared in Four and Five; that I am no longer the center of the universe and that the greater good of others outweighs my greater good. I am preparing myself to make amends, without denial, without excuses, without justifications. I stand ready to face all in my life, ready to provide the apology and the changed man. The need for reinvention departs me in this respect. I simply accept and move forward.
	__________________ "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 Last edited by RufusACanal; 07-17-2008 at 02:22 PM.

07-17-2008, 01:55 PM	#42 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 931	LogCabin, I like your program, sounds a bit like mine. LOL I applaud your ability to stick with aa even though you do not believe in its basic tenant. I tried for a while, I found it to be more detrimental than helpful. The bottom line is there are as many paths to sobriety as there are people to walk them. No two can possibly be the same.
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 931