First Question

[bugsworth]

As suggested I will take the leap and pose the first question in this new forum.

I am a member of aa, but have been actively seeking a way to work the "program" without involving my religion. Although many say the program is not religious it is spiritual, I and many others feel otherwise.

So here lies the quandary....How do you work the steps as outlined in the bb?

or...

Do you use an alternative set of steps?

I found these in an older post here at SR and found them to be quite a palatable solution to the problem.

Any thoughts?

Humanist Steps

1. We accept the fact that all our efforts to stop drinking have failed.

2. We believe that we must turn elsewhere for help.

3. We turn to our fellow men and women, particularly those who have struggled with the same problem.

4. We have made a list of the situations in which we are most likely to drink.

5. We ask our friends to help us avoid those situations.

6. We are ready to accept the help they give us.

7. We honestly hope they will help.

8. We have made a list of the persons we have harmed and to whom we hope to make amends.

9. We shall do all we can to make amends, in any way that will not cause further harm.

10. We will continue to make such lists and revise them as needed.

11. We appreciate what our friends have done and are doing to help us.

12. We, in turn, are ready to help others who may come to us in the same way.

Thanks....

[Alera]

Thanks for posting those steps. I find it funny that the first two people posting in this thread are both religious, though

I really like that third step. It outlines the idea well.

[nolonger]

Hi Bugs, I can't really contribute since I never did the steps when I was in AA. What Alera says is pretty interesting though. How come you prefer to keep them separate, if I can ask? It seems like an unusual choice for people in AA - most people seem very happy to combine the two.

[bugsworth]

First and foremost, religion is Not necessary to stop drinking. This basic tenant is simply untrue. Reason enough for me to keep the two separate.

Secondly, I am a Christian, have been for 41 years and I don’t for a minute believe anyone knows what God is or is not….is willing to do and not willing to do.

History has taught me that lesson. Not only on a personal level, but history in general can bring to light this very issue.

An example for clarification….

Between 1933-1945 (same time Bill Wilson was writing the bb) 6 million God fearing Jews died unspeakable deaths in concentration camps. There is not a shred of doubt that each one of these souls prayed and prayed and prayed…..no amount of prayers stopped the atrocities. Yet Wilson (having no opinion on the war btw) comes up with his 12 steps promising Gods personal involvement in an alcoholics life.

If you take more than a moment to think about it the idea boggles the mind.

All those prayers pouring out of the barbed wire fences and crematoriums ignored…but a set of steps, 12 to be exact, provide the key to obtain Gods intervention for an alcoholic. My soul can’t reconcile it. There is no rhyme or reason to what God will or will not do…certainly no formula.

I honestly believe, truth be told, it can be harmful to people who don't experience the "promises".

I hope this may shed a little light into my thoughts.

[dave47]

Thanks Bugs, for me it's just the simple matter that i believe in freewill and the steps don't sit comfortably with me. I truly believe that in giving us this life God is giving us the chance to experience everything-love/hate, happiness,sadness etc and that ultimately what i do is down to me; I can't hand anything back.
I like the alternative list, which i could work without the feeling in my heart( and head), that it isn't right.

[FightingIrish]

At the hands of a speed addict, btw...


[quote=bugsworth;1716184]Between 1933-1945 (same time Bill Wilson was writing the bb) 6 million God fearing Jews died unspeakable deaths in concentration camps. [quote]

[Dee74]

I love the humanist 12 steps - that makes sense to me.

D

[sugErspun]

Interesting comparison, I don't see the relevance between Bill Wilson and concentration camps, but --ok. They were killed because they were not Christian correct?

Anyhoo..God of our understanding doesn't mean the God of William Wilson's understanding.

Is there another religion in the world where the members get to choose their own concept of what the word god means to them?

The God that Bill Wilson spoke of being personal to someone's life is MUCH different than the God that Joseph Smith had a personal relationship with just 100 years earlier.


btw - not a single person that knows me considers me religious. I am not a member of any religion. I do not know what god is, or even think that one day I will. I believe there is an underlying 'truth' to everything, even though I don't know what it is, I strive to be in tune with it.

I honestly don't know the last time I went to church....certainly have never gone by my own choice.

[Dee74]

Originally Posted by sugErspun

Interesting comparison, I don't see the relevance between Bill Wilson and concentration camps, but --ok.

time frame reference Adam...

They were killed because they were not Christian correct?

well, they were killed because they were jewish...not quite the same thing IMO

Anyhoo..God of our understanding doesn't mean the God of William Wilson's understanding.

Is there another religion in the world where the members get to choose their own concept of what the word god means to them?

I'd contend that's all *anyone* does...approach the concept based upon their own understanding.

The God that Bill Wilson spoke of being personal to someone's life is MUCH different than the God that Joseph Smith had a personal relationship with just 100 years earlier.

You've lost me here with the Mormon reference.

can't really see what this has to do with secular recovery either?
maybe it's me

D

[sugErspun]

Maybe it is you Dee..I clearly state I am not religious. You can 'think' that I am, I proclaim that I am not.

Is that not what secular recovery is? The twelve steps led to my recovery from alcoholism, I did it without any other religion. I don't think that the use of the word 'god' and religion are one in the same.

Does this not qualify me to post here?


Christians are Jews that accepted Jesus Christ as the Messiah - unless I missed something - you say it's different, but the only difference between a Christian and a Jew is Jesus Christ.

Unless we start saying that the Jewish people are a race, then we have a real problem on our hands (you see, I could become Jewish if I desire to do so, but I cannot decide to become asian).

[bugsworth]

Dave, I totally agree, our free will is not something we can hit back and forth with God like a volleyball ball. I believe it was a gift, to be utilized.

Dee, thanks for the clarification on the time frame reference...whew!!! NOT COMPARING WILSON TO HITLER!!!!!

Sug, I don't understand your question.....They were killed because they were not Christian correct? Is there any reason to kill 6 million people?

As far as......God of our understanding doesn't mean the God of William Wilson's understanding. I beg to differ.

The statement that you can use any kind of a "God" or "Higher Power" you want, and that "IT" will perform a miracles for you and save you from death by alcoholism is absurd. We know doorknobs and motorcycles can't do this so I won't delve into that nonsense...the God of aa (Wilsons God) needs to be micro-managing, wish-granting, miracle-delivering authoritarian power. The God of aa needs to be this way or the steps won't work.

You won't get any power over alcohol, and your unmanageable life won't get managed by God in the first step.

You won't be restored to sanity in the second step.

God won't take back your will and run your life for you in the third step.

Your "defects of character" and "moral shortcomings" won't be removed in the seventh step.

I too am confused by the Joseph Smith reference.

[Dee74]

it's immaterial whether you're religious or not Adam - although I find it odd you'd post here given the number of times you namecheck God in your posts on recovery, that's none of my affair, I recognise that your idea of Godhood is not mine, and you're welcome as far as I'm concerned.

I was referring to your post when I questioned relevance to secular recovery.

Christians are Jews that accepted Jesus Christ as the Messiah - unless I missed something - you say it's different, but the only difference between a Christian and a Jew is Jesus Christ. Unless we start saying that the Jewish people are a race, then we have a real problem on our hands (you see, I could become Jewish if I desire to do so, but I cannot decide to become asian).

yeah, hang on - you asked 'They [the Jews] were killed because they were not Christian correct?' What you or I think is beside the point here surely ?

The Nazi 'Final Solution' was about anti-semitism and 'Jewishness'. They clearly believed the Jews were a race (I don't subscribe the races of man theory myself). Anti semitism may frequently cloak itself in religion, but I don't think religion was a major underpinning to Nazi thinking or to the Holocaust, myself.

And I still don't get what any of this has to do with secular recovery...or Joseph Smith LOL
D

[sugErspun]

Thanks both - I am truly curious what is meant by secular recovery (12-step).

I reference Joseph Smith as an extreme expample (he claimed he had direct correspondence with the Ultimate Authority)... it seemed to be intimated in a post above that Bill Wilson had the same approach.

Last night, at a local meeting - there were people from all different religions coming together for a common solution, it was great.


The opening thread to this forum said it was for people who keep religion and recovery separate. I thought I fell into that category..

Is this more for non-AA 12 Step?

And Dee - I think I have been clear on my concept of god, it's just a word- let it go. If I can use three letters to replace a whole paragraphs it saves time.

Maybe I need a better education on the holocaust. I thought the main problem Hitler had with them is that they were Jews - what is the defining characteristic of being Jewish? I thought it has to do with their spiritual/religious beliefs and practices (their shared notion of god).

I am not trying to belittle or justify anything that went on in the holocaust - I am not even the one who brought it up...that is why it was such a curiosity.

I am sure Bill Wilson had an opinion on the holocaust. AA does not.

[bugsworth]

I didn't post the historical reference for any other purpose than to clarify my belief that God does not perform miracles on demand. If that were the case our history books would be quite different.

not sure how it got to a comparison of Christians and Jews....not my intent.

[sugErspun]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

I didn't post the historical reference for any other purpose than to clarify my belief that God does not perform miracles on demand. If that were the case our history books would be quite different.

not sure how it got to a comparison of Christians and Jews....not my intent.

I agree Bugs- I do not think there is a god that performs miracles on demand.

[Dee74]

I agree - bugs used it as an illustrative example and nothing more - this is not the place for such a discussion

D