First Question

[zencat]

Although I can see only one side of this discussion because the other person is on my ignore list, I will say....

Originally Posted by bugsworth

You don't need to believe I am an alcoholic, only I need to believe that. If I were to have listened to many 12 steppers here at SR I would not be sober now. One should avoid telling others who are achieving solid sobriety that they are not alcoholic it could net horrible results.

....I do agree that only ones self can decide if they are an alcoholic or not. Relying on other alcoholics to judge you is fought with peril. Do I consider another alcoholic a good judge of my character. Of course not.

[zencat]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

Thanks LMM, You are right I am dedicated to my sobriety as so many people on SR are. If I have learned anything here at SR is that anybody who really wants sobriety can achieve it. The message each one of us gives to another is the message of hope...

I will communicate the same message, one of hope. I also encourage individuals to follow their own healthy truth and path to sobriety. It has been my experience that no one path is right for everyone regardless how well it is followed. Some people don't recover. Why that is is unknown to me and I rather not get into the blame game with those individuals because IMO it is easer to seek fault than to offer love.

[bballdad]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

First and foremost, religion is Not necessary to stop drinking. This basic tenant is simply untrue. Reason enough for me to keep the two separate.

Secondly, I am a Christian, have been for 41 years and I don’t for a minute believe anyone knows what God is or is not….is willing to do and not willing to do.

History has taught me that lesson. Not only on a personal level, but history in general can bring to light this very issue.

An example for clarification….

Between 1933-1945 (same time Bill Wilson was writing the bb) 6 million God fearing Jews died unspeakable deaths in concentration camps. There is not a shred of doubt that each one of these souls prayed and prayed and prayed…..no amount of prayers stopped the atrocities. Yet Wilson (having no opinion on the war btw) comes up with his 12 steps promising Gods personal involvement in an alcoholics life.

If you take more than a moment to think about it the idea boggles the mind.

All those prayers pouring out of the barbed wire fences and crematoriums ignored…but a set of steps, 12 to be exact, provide the key to obtain Gods intervention for an alcoholic. My soul can’t reconcile it. There is no rhyme or reason to what God will or will not do…certainly no formula.

I honestly believe, truth be told, it can be harmful to people who don't experience the "promises".

I hope this may shed a little light into my thoughts.

Bugs,I believe we have this thing called free will,we can do what we choose most of the times.
A lot of innocent people paid with their lives for what some insane people did.God sent the Jews help and they had to fight their way in there to help them.They died along the way,and the remaining Jews was rescued.The ones God sent was called the Allied Forces.The Americans,English,and French mainly.We are the body of Christ here on earth.We are called to service.
God does not ignore you or me or the Jews who was in the concentration Camps in WW2.When I was in my own prison God sent AA to help me find my freedom!
By the way,My Father survived 2 1/2 years in a Nazi Camp and was "rescued" by the Russians at the end of the war.
Why was he left alive and others died?Luck of the draw..That simple

[Dee74]

I'm experiencing major deja vu LOL

D