First Question

[bugsworth]

no worries...lol


You state....

"I suppose the only reason to change one’s perception of God is because that particular perception is not working."

So the God I believe in isn't working the way he is suppose to?

In addition a change of perception is all it takes to change how God behaves?

[Barto]

You lost me. What do you mean?

[bugsworth]

Maybe you lost me...lol

I asked about your statement...

I suppose the only reason to change one’s perception of God is because that particular perception is not working.

[yogurt75]

I can neither explain nor understand what God does or doesn't do or allow to happen or not allow to happen. That goes way beyond my human mind. All I know for me is that Faith is very important and Faith without works does nothing.

I don't believe God drives my car nor is God my co-pilot. I do believe God provides a choice of maps and my praying only for God's will for me will help me pick the right map.

Religion is man-made. Ask most fundamentalists (Christian) if they support Israel and the Jews. Most will say yes. Then, ask if they believe Jews will go to heaven. If they are honest, they will respond with a resounding NO because no man comes to the Father but by Me (Jesus).

The only reason God has a gender is because humans gave God a gender. Most churches, denominations and sects believe that their respective beliefs are the true interpretation of the scriptures. God is all powerful and doesn't need us to tell God what God can or cannot do, should or shouldn't do. That being said, if I ever get to meet God, I will ask the many why questions I have and I'm sure God will bespond with the answer my parents always gave - Because.

All parents want their children to grow up and succeed. I have faith that God wants the same for me. I also believe that God will not do for me what I can do for myself and that my works and faith will allow me to grow up and succeed. I do not question what God does because I am sure if God wanted us to know God would have told us by now.

I don't need to go into a building or a special place to converse with God. I don't need to recite by rote certain mantras or automatically respond with an also with you. God doesn't need my understanding or my permission to do or allow anything. I just have to have faith that God will allow me the grace to weather the storms and soak up the sunshine.

[Barto]

That statement arose out of ananda stating that her perception of God is that God is mean. Growing up I was taught, and some still believe, that God is punishing. I don’t believe that, and I know some who have changed their perception from this conception of a punishing God to one more loving, and that has worked well for them.

[bugsworth]

crossed wires thats ok...lol

The question boils down to do you believe God keeps you sober? I do not, I believe I keep me sober.

[Barto]

I believe I have been granted a daily reprieve based on the maintenance of my spiritual condition (and a little grace thrown in because I'm a slow learner). So, I do believe I have an active role in it; but, simultaneously, I believe it is a gift.

I tried to quit drinking every way I knew how before I got to AA. I haven’t needed a drink in some twenty years now. Sometimes I’m just flat out blown away by this.

[bugsworth]

I am glad you have found peace...it is indeed a gift!

[ananda]

Hi,

Just got back on line and saw all this. WOW!

My understanding of god has changed many times over the years, and probably will in the future. My higher power is the Law of Cause and Effect. It seems to me that everything is bound by the law of cause and effect, even most people's god as they describe him to me in one on one sharing. (my christian friends call it Free Will). As for tornados and stuff Barto, I guess it is all perception that can always be broke down smaller. I find the hardest part of tying to share here that I can't look at your posts while I am typing. I can't remember what all you asked or what others have said and can't refresh my memory now.

Anyways, I have found that when I work the steps they work fine. I know that "I" couldn't get sober even though I wanted to for many years before this return to sobriety. I have found that this is a We program and is all about relationships between "me" and the world around me (people, higherpower, my house, etc. (all)).

I love AA because it actually, at its base, has room for everyone to work through and embrace sobriety.

I'm glad to see all the sharing. I strongly believe that each person needs to follow what ever thier path is.

[ananda]

Oh yeah - I don't believe I said god was mean, I said he/she/it doesn't appear to be "all knowing, all powerful" etc.

I use to think god was mean and got really scared when I "slipped up" and prayed because I was afraid it might catch gods attention and i'd get zapped

So - in sobriety, that concept is not there anymore. Things change. I just don't consider the question of a god to be critical, but rather that I support others and am supported by others in following whatever my spiritual path happens to be as I work the steps and focus on recovery.

Thanks to everyone for contributing to this discussion.

[Barto]

I thought that I read this in one of your earlier posts. I’ve been up all night because of my as yet un-dealt with drug addiction to caffeine. Argh! I’m going to do a First Step on it and start a thread in the substance abuse section. LOL.

Sounds like your conception of God is working just fine. Doesn’t the book say something like, when therefore we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. The only qualifier being that t makes sense to you (as in each of us)?

[Freedom1990]

Well this has been a fascinating thread for sure!

I was raised Catholic, brought up to believe in a God of the Catholic church's understanding, and of course, also my parents' interpretation of that God.

I had to throw that lifetime 'understanding' out the window when I got sober.

Today I have my own concept of God and do not practice Catholicism, or any organized religion, much to my father's dismay.

So far it's worked well for me - over 17 years now

[zencat]

This is going well. Maybe someone can recap what secular step they are working on.

[ananda]

Steps 9,10,11 & 12.

How about you?

[nandm]

Originally Posted by zencat

This is going well. Maybe someone can recap what secular step they are working on.

You brought up a good point, one I had questions about myself. So to clarify for myself I looked the word secular up. Here is a definition of secular.

Secularity (adjective form secular) is the state of being separate from religion. For instance, eating and bathing may be regarded as examples of secular activities, because there is nothing inherently religious about them. (Note, however, that both eating and bathing are regarded as sacraments by some religious organizations, and therefore would be religious activities in their worldview.) Saying a prayer derived from religous text or doctrine, worshipping through the context of religon, and attending Sunday School are examples of religious (non-secular) activities. However prayer and meditation are not necessarily non-secular being that the concept of spirituality and higher consiousness are not married solely to any religion but are practiced and arose indepedently across a continuum of cultures.
source: Secularity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since I do not consider myself a religious person, nor am I associated with a religious organization (AA is a spiritual program not a religious one) then I consider myself secular. My conception of spirituality is not centered or dependent upon religion.

JMHO

[Barto]

Actually, that is one definition. Secularity can also be distinguished from spiritually.

secular - Definitions from Dictionary.com

[ananda]

Words! They get so in the way sometimes!