Calling all folks who can see things clearly...

[Hangin' In]

Daughter/bride to be in 2 months has had 2 trips to the ER in the last 2 weeks. First was intestinal/flu like symptoms which led her to be dehydrated along with excruciating pain in her lower abdomen. Doc did CAT scan but it was clear. I'm still not so sure that she didn't have a kidney stone. Then a few days after that little hospital visit, she says her arm is sore, the arm where they had the IV. The soreness got progressively worse and we ended up in the ER in Atlanta where we had gone for the first alteration appt for her wedding dress. Bless her heart, she had thrombosis phlebitis which (for you non-medical types) a blood clot. This mama said, "WHAT? BLOOD CLOT?" Dr. assured me it was in a superficial vein so it wasn't nearly as serious as it sounded. But nonetheless, she was in great pain in her arm. So they put another IV in the other arm (just what she wanted...yet ANOTHER IV...isn't that where the problem in the other arm started?) and socked her with 2 bags of antibiotics. Dr. said this would not go away overnight, that it would take 2-4 weeks to heal and soreness/redness/swelling to go away.

So during this last trip to the hospital, daughter calls fiance to tell him what is going on. (He's 4 hours away.) She had to hang up abruptly because the doc came in. About 30 minutes after that she tried to call him but he didn't answer. Now remember, we're talking cell phones here. He can take his cell phone anywhere he goes.

About 2 hours later we're let go from the ER and on the way home she tries to call him. No answer yet again. She's hurt, terribly hurt that it seems he doesn't care enough to be reached.

Got home to my parents house where we were staying. If he called before we went to bed, I never knew about it. She said he called late that night and couldn't be reached because he had gone bowling with a friend. Bowling and the last you knew your fiance was in the ER being treated? I'm wondering if he really did call that night. She has a habit of telling me what she thinks I want to hear...which equates to lying to me. Yet another problem.

Doc gave her specific instructions to be seen 1st thing Monday a.m. by her primary care physician as a follow up. Said if it wasn't better on Sun, to go back to hospital. You don't mess with blood clots, superficial veins or not.

So on Sunday we travelled back to my home, 4 hours away but still not in the town she lives in. The fiance did NOT CALL all day long. I think he called around 6:00 that night. Her feelings were terribly hurt again. Seems she is not his first priority.

Now all this time and I keeping my mouth shut, trying to work my program, you know, "let go, let God", "live and let live". In the past I've been the world's worst about offering my opinion, but I was trying very hard not to say anything. And besides, what could I say but point out he was being very insensitive. She ALREADY KNEW THAT.

So I get home and tell Mr. Hangin' about it. Now for those of you who don't know, Mr. Hangin' is quiet. (He says someone has to listen in our household.)
"Mr. I Hate To Confront" should be his REAL name. So anyway, the more I think about how this future SIL is treating my daughter, the more aggravated and hurt I get. And what made it even worse was that when I told anyone (close friends) their first question was, "Well what is Mr. Hangin' having to say about this?" as if he'd be ready to tear into the boy. I sadly had to say, "Nothing."

You see, Mr. Hangin' is a wonderful person, but he has always been a bit whimpy when he should be taking a stand, mainly when this taking a stand requires confronting someone. He'll do ANYTHING and has in the past to keep from having to confront. There was a time when this same daughter was involved in a bad relationship and I had to force Mr. Hangin' to confront the boy. I admit I was so angry with him that he would not do it without me pushing him.

Anyway, so here we are at this point. I feel Mr. Hangin' should let the future SIL know exactly where we stand on how we expect our daughter to be treated. Now hold on a minute before ya'll jump on me... I KNOW expectations are pre-meditated resentments. But I think this is more of a boundary issue with me. I know I cannot control this young man, BUT we certainly can let him know we know of his inconsiderate behavior and that we expect better if he is to marry into our family and be a welcomed member.

And here's the deal. I believe in working the 12 step program as much as the next guy. But Mr. Hangin (oh my gosh, don't you love how I'm fixin to take HIS inventory... ) will use the program to stay in his sickness of NOT saying something when something needs to be said. Does that make sense?

I think now is the time to let the future SILknow that our family expects him to love, honor and cherish our daughter. (Should we really have to be spelling this out to him if he loves her?) His behavior of the past week is indicating anything BUT that.

Now please keep in mind that I do realize I cannot control him. Like I said, in my gut I feel like we need to let him know our boundaries. I have told our daughter this. Also told her that she had better learn to set her boundaries now with him, including telling him that being rude to me is NOT an option. The other day he went to the backdoor of his mother's house (this was after a bridal shower and we were standing around in her kitchen talking) and opened it and stood there as if to say, "Time for you to leave." Rude, rude, rude, rude, RUDE!

Oh yall, this is going to be the father of my grandchildren. I'm not liking how this is looking.

What do ya'll think? I do know she has to live her life. I know I can't live it for her. And I know I cannot control him. But like I said, this is about what is and isn't acceptable to me. I think he needs to know what our boundaries are regarding the treatment of our daughter and we are very aware that it is less than considerate. At least it looked that way after this hospital run.

Ideas? Comments?

[splendra]

(((hanging in)))

I am thinking you might ought to let it lay. The reason I say this is you don't want your D on the defensive with you . You don't want her to defend him to you either cause if she needs your support you want her to feel like she can come to you and she might not feel that she can if she has already defended his actions to you.

If you want to get really reverse psycology with her start talking really good about future SIL to her that could make her call off the wedding don't ya know...

[Hangin' In]

Splenda,

If we decide to talk to the future SIL, daughter will be made well aware of it before hand. She already knows we are not happy about how inconsiderate he was. Heck, she is well aware he was inconsiderate. She was hurt. She cannot defend him on this, nor can she defend his rude behavior to me at his mother's house that day.

Thanks for your take on this. I'm still chewing on it. And I hear what you're saying. I don't want to alienate my daughter. And she'd never call off the wedding. Sorry to say she is WAY to insecure. That's the whole reason she's marrying him in the first place. Her life has always been lived out of fear...fear of not being good enough, fear of not measuring up, fear, fear, fear.

Oh how I pray she would or will go to Al Anon but she won't. And you know what? She's the first one who would say that AD daughter is bull headed. HA! This daughter's pride and desire to run her own life is going to take her down a deadend street. At least AD has had the courage to admit she can't run her life. I just pray older daughter doesn't have to crash and burn before she realizes that HER way isn't working. I pray one day she will look at the 12 steps and realize they are a recipe for a successful and contented life. Step 3...turn my life and my will over to the care of God as I understand him.

Oh well.....we'll see. Thanks again.

[BigSis]

(((Hangin)))

I can tell you what my sponsor would tell me. She would say... Wait. Pray. More shall be revealed. But... extra heavy on the "Pray" part.

I also know that at THIS stage of my recovery... I would probably invite the fiance to lunch and have a sweet (really sweet) talk with him and let him know.... if he isn't ready, he needs to be man enough to be honest with everyone.

But gently... because, what if I were wrong? What if he DID go bowling? What if his values around emergencies are different than mine? What if he adores and loves my daughter? What if a "strict" talk with him would jeopardize a relationship and leave my daughter hating me for interfering?

yeah, if the waiting and praying don't work... tread lightly.

And I know if I pushed Mr. Big into a confrontation he didn't want, and THEN it went south... I would NEVER hear the end of it...

I am sorry she is having a tough danged time ... at a time she should be most happy. HP has her, just like He has your AD. It may be the hospital trip came up for a reason... no coincidences. Just a thought.

((((Hangin'))))

[Wolfstarr]

(((Hangin')))

I feel that nothing is inappropriate to let future SIL know how you feel about your daughter. It is ultimately up to her as to how she is treated by him, not you nor Mr. Hangin'.
But, letting SIL know where you stand and that you love and care for your daughter's happiness is completely appropriate.
As for Mr. Hangin' and confrontations...you know you can't change that, nor him. Time to accept the things you cannot change and the courage to change the things you can, Hangin'.
Let go Let God. Yessiree. That's the ticket. Everything will unfold as it is going to unfold. Let it happen.
It's up to your daughter for her own happiness. You can give her your opinions/thoughts/love/ideas till the cows come home but she, ultimately, is responsible. And I know you know that.
I can say from experience that she has to learn on her own. You just can't save her from what may be perceived as an alleviation/dependency on security from another person to quell her own insecurities.
She has to and will learn that herself, mom.
Live and let live.

Love you,
WS

[Ann]

I sat this one out for a while, because you're a dear friend, Hangin' and I know that my perspective is probably from a seat that is too close to see the bigger picture. I love you, have gotten to know your family, and I just want everything to be "perfect" for that beautiful princess who is your daughter and catch myself looking to lend you my steel toed bunny slippers.

That said, I know I am wrong...yes ME, wrong. I think I need to borrow BigSis's sponsor for a while, and maybe BigSis too, because I think she pegged this dead on. Sharing your feelings about your daughter without trying (at least in an obvious way, LOL) to change his, is probably better.

And we both know that praying on this and letting God lead the way is the answer that takes the control of everyone else's life away from us and puts it in the hands of He who sees all and knows best.

You lead by example and your daughter knows how "together" you are with life and love and living. She knows you love her and for her to know that you are there for her, good days and bad, is probably more constructive for her than getting caught between the emotions of people she loves.

This may not be the answer you were looking for, or even the first answer that came to my mind, but in the end I think it is the right answer. Our program tells us it is, and it rarely fails us, yes?

Big Hugs to You and Princess Hangin'
Ann

[Hangin' In]

Ya'll DO know that I just HAVE to reply, right? lol.

First...Big Sis. Oh, I believe he went bowling. I don't think he is in anyway cheating on her. Na, he's just doing what he wants to do because that is how he has always lived his life. You see, he's an only child, the adored by his entire family, only child and self centered as they come. When he and daughter broke up (the only time), she made a comment about everything having to be about him.

Also, don't think I haven't thought that God isn't trying to drop a piano on daughter's head with all this 'stuff' going on before the wedding. But daughter doesn't see it that way because that is the way she has lived her life ... sticking her head in the sand, hoping it will all go away. She knows she lives like that. Just isn't ready to do something about it, obviously.

Re getting Mr. Hangin' to talk to the boy, well, let me say this. The only other time I pressed him to do that, it WAS the right thing to do. He knows it, admitted it and will admit to his backing off when he should go forward. That, according to my sponsor, is just as sick behavior as the controlling that I have done in the past. Using the program to stay in your sickness isn't right if you ask me. But I know what you are saying. I really do. But Mr. Hangin' knows, in his heart, that this issue needs to be addressed with the future SIL. He's just hates confronting whether it's done in a loving way or as a pit bull.

So are we all in agreement that we are within the limits of the program to share how we feel about this without telling him what he should do? I'm thinking that is perfectly legal. And you know us Hangin's...we're all about being legal!

Btw, let me share this and maybe it will help you understand why I am encouraging (notice I didn't say "nagging"... ) Mr. Hangin' to step up to the plate. A couple of months ago I found a notebook in which my AD daughter had written. Obviously she was working on her steps. (And no, I didn't go noseying, searching. She left it here for me to either keep or dispose of. She didn't care, obviously, if I saw it.) Know what was written as one of her resentments? "Daddy won't stand up to mama." Now I know that said "to mama" but in essence she is resenting that her daddy won't stand up when he needs to. And how do you think it makes them feel when they know (as in the past incident with bride/daughter) their daddy knows their b/f/fiance is not treating them with love and respect and daddy let's it go. I KNOW daughters are the ultimately responsible for how they are treated. I know, I know, I know. But I'm saying let there be NO gray area when it comes to the fiance knowing what WE desire for our daughter.

I don't want either of my daughters going to their grave thinking their daddy wouldn't stand up for them when he needed to. See?

But I see what ya'll are all saying. If we're to talk to him or Mr. Hangin, that is...lovingly is the best approach.

Darn, I wanted to rip his head off, in my most gentile and southern belle way, of course....lol. My, I think I might have a little of Scarlett in me.

Ok, let me go find my southernbelle dress, complete with the curtain rod, and get to work!

[splendra]

Tell your D that how he treats her the week before the wedding is what she will get for the rest of her marriage...

[Ann]

Oh Splendra just said something that my mother's best friend, May used to say all the time to me..."As you court, so you wed". May was one wise woman and had a marriage made in heaven. This was about 100 years before the word "codependency" even existed.

Now Scarlett, I looked in your handbook, and I see that on page 97, paragraph IV, it says...under no circumstances are you to treat a future son in law like a Yankee, it's just not legal to shoot one of our own. Yes it DOES.

[Cap3]

Just some thoughts,if i may.After reading the post,about your daughter,and her husband to be,whats screams,out to me,is your wants,and how you think the relationship "should" be.So into these wants that you are trying to force your hub,to take some kind of action,in this too.The relationship is between your daughter,and her boyfriend.Has she asked for your advice?Has she asked what boundaries that she should have in her relationship with this man?Your hub,doesnt confront,often.Maybe he is trying to be of harmony,peace,when others are tearing their hair out.This takes courage,strenght,but can be often seen as a weakness,.
My dear,im a mother-in-law also.Believe me when i say the hardest thing that i do,is to keep my yap shut,when i so,desperatly,want to scream to the top of my lungs,on advice to my kids.But they are adults.That need the freedom to make bloopers,like , i have,and still do,to..That freedom to learn.To grow.To BE.They know by my example,my behaviour,what are my,beliefs,in realtionships.,and my boundaires.The wise person,my sponsor says,,never gives out advice,unless,asked to.And then to be kind,and compassionate.So that they will come to me,for advice,and know that im not judgeing them or who they are having issues with.But if im throwing my weight around,my kids will shut off,from me.I know this because there was a time,that i did throw my weight around.Its hard as parents,to not get involved,to the point that im hunting down the person who has hurt my kids,and gonna give them a peace of my mind,which i cannot afford,,lol.But ,,live and let live.This is whats working in my life,with my kids.They come to me today,freely,knowing that im here for them.And yes,when they ask for advice,i will give it to them.But never,before they ask.
Thanks for letting me share,
i await your arrows,,,
God Bless,and take care!!!!

[splendra]

(((((cap))))

[unsure of]

hangin'

I'm a daughter so i don't know if this will help you. I was in a real bad relationship and my mother was constantly getting in the middle of things and to tell you the truth i knew she was right but, "i was in love and going to prove her wrong." But my dad never said "boo" about him and when it came down to it when i did leave him i could talk to my dad about it not my mom because for years i have heard too much from her on the subject. And Please, please, please don't say "i told you so." because of those four words i still find it very hard to confide in my mother. She kind of made me feel like a child and stupid like i was so blind that i couldn't see what was going on. but i reality i did see "the light" but i needed to live and learn. My dad still keeps to himself and i feel that he doesn't pass judgement even though i know he only wants the best for me and maybe pissed about the situation.

Now in another situation that i should have learned from how my mother treated me. i did the same thing to my sister and i totally reget it. i told my sister how i didn't like they way her boyfriend was treating her. you know what it is none of my business because she is an adult and if she wants a man to treat her like $hit there is nothing i can do. She too will learn (just like i did). and i'm afaird that i have ruined my relationship with my sister the way my mother ruined her relationship with me.

Just at look at it from a daughter's point of view. i love my mother very much but when it comes down to it i'm an adult. oh my mother i think has learned from her mistake in getting in the middle of relationships becasue she is keeping her opinions to herself about my sisters boyfriend.

best wishes

Polly Anna

[Hangin' In]

Ok, I'm hearing all of you.

And just so you will know, if anything is said to the future SIL, Mr. Hangin' is going to be the one to say it. I may be dumb, but I ain't stoooopid....lol. If it came from me, future SIL would turn it off like water. He already has a VERY OPINIONATED mother and doesn't need another one. I fully realize that.

And my daughter and I have a wonderful relationship. She is very insecure and a people pleaser. Thus she has made some decisions of late that have made her miserable. She came home one day and I told her what my mama's gut was feeling. She cried and said I was right. I told her in a loving way and she wasn't offended at all. The problem she is having is setting her boundaries. And yes, I know they are hers to set. She will do what she will do. I cannot control her. Believe it or not, I do try to practice and realize Step One.

We'll see. I'm praying, asking God for clear cut guidance such as a booming voice from up above! I'm leaning toward the loving approach when Mr. Hangin' speaks to him. But I will say nothing. It will have to come from her dad.

But

[marteen]

Oh, Hangin', you just knew that I had to come here to give my two-cent's worth!!! You know that I can't let this go by. You are a very dear friend to me and I hate to see you beating yourself up about this.

Mr. M. is somewhat like Mr. H except that there are times when he says TOO much! He does't always have the tact either and that is where he gets himself into trouble. During our married life, there have been many times when I felt he could or should have handled things differently. And I'm sure if he had the opportunity, he would say exactly the same about me. We are imperfect people. But as we grow older, we learn to accept the frailties and faults in our parents. And in our partners. We cannot change them; and if we took inventory on why we are with them in the first place, those things would not rate all that high. We fell in love with them for all sorts of reasons.

Our children have to also accept those things about us. Yes, we are parents, but first of all, we are human. We make mistakes and we don't always come equipped to handle things the way we are "expected".

Your daughter knows how you feel; if she doesn't, you need to have a little talk with her but with the knowledge that "she" is the captain of her ship. It sounds like it is "she" who is allowing and accepting her fiance's behavior. If she doesn't address it now, she will have to live with the consequences of it later. It's her choice to do that, not yours, as hard as that is to accept. You are doing all that you can to make her wedding a beautiful event but you cannot live the consequences of it. I know you wish you could impress the important of caring to you future SIL but sadly, you cannot. That apparantely is just one of his faults. But your daughter has to decide if that is something she can live with.

Love ya, and try to keep a smile on your face especially when you are signing the checks!! lol

Hugs,
Marteen

[Hangin' In]

Just love how I ended my last post with "But....".

Good glory, must have gotten interrupted at work and hit send. And who knows what I was about to say. Must have not been much of nothing...lol.

Oh well....life is what it is. I wish I could be more excited about my daughter's wedding and her choice of her mate. It really saddens when I know there is some guy out there who would treat her like a queen and adore her. I wish her self esteem were better. As I look back on her 'adult' life, I can see every one of her not so good choices is related to her insecurity. Just makes me sad for her. God has so much better for her if she'd just trust him and do it his way.

So I pray for her, for the future SIL, that God will improve her view of herself and help the future SIL see what the REALLY important things are in life.

Thank y'all for writing and caring. You have no idea how much that means to me.

Love all of you,
Hangin'

[susie24]

I'm responding from the daughters point of view. My fiance treated me like crap (he was on drugs, but I didn't know). I always tried to cover it up to my mom, even making up stories about how sweet he was, jsut so she wouldn't see the truth. My mother and I are so close, and I hated to do this. But I didn't do it so much to protect him as myself. I was so ashamed to let my mother know what I put up with. To this day, my mom does not know that he was an addict b/c I'm too embarrassed to let her know that I put up with his crap for so long. I could tell my mom started to really dislike him, even thought she really tried to hide it. Your daughter probably knows too. It took me a long time to be able to leave my fiance, and I still avoid old friends so that I don't have to talk about it. Talking to him is the right way to go, even if Mr Hangin doesn't want to. But approach carefully so he doesn't try to turn your daughter on you. GOod luck, I hope she's a bigger person than I am and isn't too scared to leave him before it gets worse.

[Hangin' In]

Thanks for your comments, Susie.

Need to clarify something. The finacee is not an alcoholic or addict. He's just spoiled, self centered and controlling. Not that those are good, but we're not dealing with addiction issue here. Still it's sad.

[Wolfstarr]

Hangin' I just had to add:

Send them both love, be receptive and open to them, and let them...be them.

Those are the best things you can do for them, and mostly... for yourself.
Condemning something/someone doesn't change the situation/person.
(and I know you know that)


Love you.

[Hangin' In]

Well, Wolf, gimme some credit here. I wasn't going to tell him, TO HIS FACE, that he's self centered, spoiled and controlling. lol I'm talking to ya'll about this for a reason. You are my sounding board. Problem is ya'll are talking back. Don't you know you're just supposed to listen, agree with me and everything will be just fine? (Man, oh man, I bet Mr. Hangin' could identify with that.)

Oh gosh, gotta laugh to keep from doing something I'll regret in the a.m.

[Wolfstarr]

Hangin' you are tooooo funny!!!

You are right...sounding board. I want this to sound loving and caring so here goes...
Kick his butt!

And you know what else? I just so admire you...really forgive me for spouting and telling you what to do. That was just so prepossessing and controlling of me.

See? I am learning something!
(Did I grovel enough?)