eeny, meeny, miney...

[smoke gets in my eyes]

... mo?

I have no idea where to post this. It's a relationship thing. I'm not sure it has anything to do with state of sobriety. Maybe. It might have to do with ACoA-ism or codie-ism more. I dunno. It definitely has to do with insecurity and feeling like a sucker. I'm not sure I want to post it anywhere. We'll see if I hit the submit button.

Dino didn't do anything. Let's just get that out of the way. Well.. I mean... he did SAY something that has sent me for a loop, but it was said in all innocence... I think.

See... we were having this episode. Think "Days of Our Lives". In the Codie manual it says "If it starts sounding like all the old crap, it's 99% likely it's all the old crap." Actually, this fell into the lone percentile, but I was in the middle of not believing him. I know this is a very frustrating place to be for someone who is being clean and trying very hard to put their life together, but like a lot of codies I spent a number of years being taught that Dino could not be believed. Scepticism shouldn't be all that surprising, yet it's apparent that it both surprises and hurts him. I try to keep my mouth shut when I feel that way, but this time I was frank about my doubts. He said "Is the rest of our lives going to be like this?"

Wham.

I wish I could post a poll right here to see what you're all thinking ran through my mind. Please share. I'm betting you're thinking something like "she's wondering if she can stand living with all this doubt" or "she's thinking she doesn't like the idea of continuing to hurt his feelings endlessly". Nope. "Rest of our lives". Clang! Chime! Crash!

Barring mutual or separate major screw-ups... I am considered permanent. That is what exploded in my head. A similar thing happened once before, but it was a long time ago and a lot of trust busting things have happened since then. At the time I didn't really even know what crack was, much less that that's what the hell was wrong with him. It had the effect of loosening my wallet considerably and I never quite knew after if it was an innocent or manipulative comment. We are forever! We are a team! All for one and... uh... him for one? Anyway, I had come to think of that as a "could have been". Though we have been friendly and he stays with me sometimes what's gone on here has been anything but romantic. If you had asked me a few months ago what the future held, I would say that as soon as he was on his feet he would not be around much and would find someone else to love him, and that would be okay with me. Too much had happened that we probably couldn't fix.

I have a hunch this is getting too long for a single post.

[smoke gets in my eyes]

Episode 2

I got a huge reality check on my own feelings a few months ago when I found that Dino had downloaded some women's pictures from, and had a profile on, an internet dating site. He left his stupid picture files right where I would see them when I opened the image browser. I never look at his documents unless he asks me to and this was the only way I would ever have seen them. I thought it was an April Fools joke. When I realized it wasn't I had a huge go-to-pieces. I was outraged and jealous and hurt. Looking back all I can think of is Ross from "Friends" whining "But we were on a breeeeeeeeak!" It was a reaction I really didn't have any right to... but there it was. I had been pretending to myself and to him that I was indifferent. So I guess he decided he ought to be indifferent, too? Find out what's out there? So besides being jealous I was really embarrassed about being jealous. How could I be so attached? How could I care this much? And how could I have so little self respect as to DISPLAY it so it was obvious to him that I was anything BUT indifferent? (I still think it was in poor taste to use my computer for e-singling, but poor taste didn't warrant the nuclear reaction that occurred.)

And the facade resumed. I took all of this as a sign that I was indeed correct.
When he didn't need me, he would evaporate out of my life. He was already shopping. I partitioned the computer so that I can't see his files and he can't see mine. No more accidental revelations. We didn't talk about it. He's been here helping me work but when we're done, we go to our corners. But we were getting friendlier. Closer. Some of the walls were coming down. Then circumstances got squirrely, I got skeptical and he said "Is the rest of our lives going to be like this?" So he's not indifferent either. If he questions the serenity of our future, he imagines one.

[smoke gets in my eyes]

Episode 3

I am mush. I never rent new release movies (they cost too much) but he likes them. I got two. I'm on a diet. I got pizza for dinner. He likes pizza. His truck needs a major repair. He hasn't asked. I wonder about getting it fixed for him. (Major no. I can't afford it. It rattles me that I think about it.) In no way do I think he had any notion of manipulating me with that comment. It was just a frustrated question. But oh, how it has bent my mind.

What is that? Risky is a small word to use in describing Dino if you're looking at past behavior and statistics. He shows a few signs of sincere attachment and I am in danger of massive codie relapse. Good thing I learned the word "no". I have to say it to myself about eleventeen times a day. Pizza and movies are not a big deal but I can see it escalating. All he wants is that I not jump to the conclusion that he's using drugs because his elderly truck has a series of breakdowns. That kind of simple negotiation is too LITTLE for me to DO.

Why am I crazy?

[Gabe]

Oh I was right there with you Smoke, I re-read that sentence eleventeen times. THE REST OUR OUR LIVES??? I would have stopped processing after that one. Then my fight or flight instinct would have kicked in. Probably the flight thing since I have a tendency to bolt when someone starts talking permanent.
No codie relapses are allowed. You know if you even try it, Ann and I will hunt you down and deprogram you. That's a promise.

[journeygal]

Yup Smoke, I zeroed in on that rest of our lives comment too. It's just the kind of statement that keeps us recovering codies on our toes. And I agree with your assessment - he wasn't being manipulative and he does consider you permanent, for better or worse. (Heh heh - I couldn't resist. )

Maybe the e-date stuff was to get your attention, to test your indifference. Who knows? You guys could have a talk, or you can keep on keeping on. But I'm with Gabe - no codie relapses allowed.

Love you,
JG

[boryad]

Wow Smoke, a great slap upside my head! "For the rest of our lives?" I'm ending a prior relationship (the legalities, the relationship ended a loooooong time ago) because it was not what I wanted for the rest of my life. I haven't even really begun a relationship w/my A beyond him being my best friend, but we are talking the rest of our lives, after rehab, when we both are well grounded and working our recovery. Maybe we'll just be roommates "for the rest of our lives" and nothing more. I dunno. The point I'm (taking the long way) getting to is this...I have yet to live a life outside of rehab w/this man and I am already questioning (in my mind) everything he says as to whether or not it is truth. His old job required manipulation (more or less) so he's a master 3x over...alcohol, drugs and job. I'm wondering if I'll be smart enough, recovered enough, to recognize it. I'm also wondering if it's what I really want...for the rest of my life.

After reading your post, I'm wondering, will I ever get beyond questioning him(in my mind)?

[smoke gets in my eyes]

I'm pretty sure I wasn't meant to see the e-date stuff. Whatever Dino is, he is never purposefully cruel.

You know how everybody puts their best face and their go-getter attitude on when they're trying to get a job? Then once they have it and their probation is over, a lot of people kind of relax and quit trying to be so impressive all the time? I never did that. I was always trying to get the job even after I had it. Maybe even especially after I had it. "You won't be sorry you picked me." I think there's some of that going on here. A statement like that ordinarily would make a person either run (LOL Gabe) or relax. And here I am still trying to get the job. A little bit of that is probably good. People should not take each other or their relationships for granted. I just don't want me to get out of hand. I can do that.

[boryad]

Originally Posted by smoke gets in my eyes

And here I am still trying to get the job. A little bit of that is probably good. People should not take each other or their relationships for granted. I just don't want me to get out of hand. I can do that.

Yes, you can! And what a great reminder, "still trying to get the job". My A told me "you win, you've got the top shelf prize, (think of the stuffed animals at carnivals), you've got me."

Unfortunately, I'm not convinced and this is something (insecurity) I have to get past as part of my recovery. Seeing the strength of Smoke and Gabe is seeing somewhere I want to be. Thank you.

[smoke gets in my eyes]

Hi SWC!

We cluster posted. LOL I guess the most helpful thing to me about 12 step philosophy is hearing "one day at a time" ad infinitum. There are no guarantees with any person or any relationship. Sane people go nuts. Nice people turn sour. Healthy people get sick. And it all happens the other way around, too and there's just no predicting how, when or why. Every day I have to remind myself to stay in today. Not yesterday. Not tomorrow. It certainly isn't effortless, but it's easier than it used to be. I think that if, and only if we can master that we could find that we are happy with someone who has had a substance abuse problem in the past. But if we're constantly preoccupied with what might happen, we might be happier alone.

HUGS!

[smoke gets in my eyes]

LOL We did it again.

[boryad]

Let's see if I can post all by little 'ol self here, lol.

One Day At A Time is something I truly try to remember...I am a worry wart by nature, Codie by learned behavior. I know that today he loves me, he misses me (his house is on restriction so no outside contact for who knows how long). Last week, he didn't call on the weekend so immediately I'm wondering WHO is there visiting him since I wasn't there on visiting day, WHO is he calling rather than me? I know my worries are unfounded, because since he's been home, off the road, it is all about me, and him. His recovery, his choice, for himself, but also for me. He doesn't have children, yet he's taking parenting classes (again, not just for me and my kids, but it helps him understand his parents, his childhood). This man has NOTHING to prove to me, and I'm still behaving as though I'm "applying for the job".

Today, I have the job. I need to learn how to do the job to the best of my ability...on a daily basis. No need to look into next week, or what I didn't do last week. I'm getting better at it though, when his case manager called and told me I couldn't visit this weekend because of the restriction, I only said "oh, o.k.! Tell him I love him, and to behave, and call me when he can." The "old" me would've promptly sat down and wrote a letter, telling him how disappointed I was that I couldn't visit, whine about what would I now do w/that block of time (duh, how 'bout a little work on ME???). Honestly, I'm trying to maintain an "oh well" attitude...it helps with dealing w/the here and now and reminds me that I am powerless over others and their actions (did I pass the 1st Step yet?). I see progress.

[fatcat]

Sorry to just jump in here – I haven’t posted in awhile and I find it hard to resist one of Smoke’s gems.

I guess I gotta ask this – Smoke what is your payback for staying in a relationship with Dino? Or even for having Dino around your line of vision (no disrespect to either of you).

Incidently I’m still with Slick (my husband/addict/oilman) in a relationship which is largely event-free because he’s hardly ever around. My payback – his money (I have a 15 year old son).

Absolutely nothing else! Not-so-happily-ever-after works for me at the moment.

Love & peace
Fatcat

[fatcat]

Dunno why I asked that…lemme try and figure it out and elaborate a bit.

In any relationship, even the most selfless one there has to be a payback for both parties of some kind – take Mother Theresa as the most selfless individual I know. Her perception of a payback was probably “Heaven� or a permanent relationship with “God�. I don’t think worldly recognition or reverence had much to do with it because when she started she had none.

Maybe some of the answers we’re looking for in a supposedly one-sided or flawed relationship with an addict (or a recovering addict) is understanding or re-defining our own payback in this relationship.

Maybe it’s time I re-defined mine – but that’s for another time/thread

Feel free to let me know if I’m talking thru’ my proverbial b*tt!

Thank you for all you do for so many of us, Smoke

Peace
Fatcat

[mackat]

hi all
beenreading awhile- smoke's post seems hugely insightful to me- of course i 'keep applying ' on a all-consuming level until i have a guaranteed self sabatoged wreckage on my hands- i realized only recently that no human could continue at the pace i set for myself-

fatcat, re:"In any relationship, even the most selfless one there has to be a payback for both parties of some kind – take Mother Theresa as the most selfless individual I know. Her perception of a payback was probably “Heaven� or a permanent relationship with “God�."

I won't argue that i often view relationships as a 'balanced account' but i am not so sure that this is a very realistic 'accounting method' . there are examples aplenty of selfless altruism in which i would be hard pressed to come up w/ the notion of a 'payback'. Fullfillment is such an all encompassing, subjective notion that, for me, it enters the arena of spirituality.
I HAVE been in relationships that were mostly about making sure that only one facet of my 'wants' were met. Probably wont surprise anyone that they didnt last.
thanks for being here, doing this
mackat

[smoke gets in my eyes]

Hi Fatcat! Hi Mackat!

Hmm. I like Dino. He helps me at work sometimes. We were friends for 17 years before the past 8 years of... whatever this has been. He's "family" and recently he hasn't been hurting anything. Why not? Of course there's a payoff. I get to see him get better and better and that's wonderful. He barely has enough money for himself, so that's not it. LOL I might say that our relationship is flawed but I would not say it is one sided. It's hard to get your own life on track when you've been as far down as Dino, but I have to say that he has seized opportunties to help me whenever he could and to be funny and kind when I needed somebody to be funny and kind. He's not idle. There's forward momentum. We have a warm relationship for the most part. I had begun to think of it as a warm friendship alone, though. I guess I didn't mean that I really thought he would evaporate from my life totally but rather that he was bound to find a romantic interest sometime and I didn't think I would be it. And I thought that was okay with me... I even thought it's what I wanted and obviously it was not. I think Dino and I may be on the same page now. But I caught myself thinking like a doormat. Nobody's treating me like one.

I guess it's a new phase of recovery, not really backsliding. I have gotten pretty good at self defense recovery. Not being pushed around. Saying no when I want to. Escaping someone else's drama. But those are outside things to struggle against. Mind you, I'm very pleased to have these skills now. I think the only unconquered enemy is me. I don't have to say "no" to Dino... he's not making any unreasonable requests. (Crap! I had that part down.) I have to say "no" to me. Just me. I have learned how not to be a victim. Now I have to make sure I don't volunteer.
:scratchch :wow:

[Gabe]

Originally Posted by smoke gets in my eyes

I think the only unconquered enemy is me.

Hello
I resemble that remark.

[fatcat]

Originally Posted by Gabe

Hello
I resemble that remark.

Gabe - wish I could concur...sometimes I feel I haven't progressed beyond Step I.

How well you express yourselves. I am enthralled and envious.

Smoke
From where I'm sitting, your description of what Dino does for you and means to you reads suspiciously like love of the romantic kind - and (dare I say it)
of the happily-ever-after kind (yipes - don't kill me!).


Bless you both - how far you've come.

Take care and thanks again to all.
Fatcat

[JT]

I read this last night...when you get going on a problem solving vent I have learned that the longer you talk the closer you will get to to zeroing in the the answer. You haven't proved me wrong this time!

Smoke...you have the job! In fact in a few more years you should be able to draw retirement benefits or at least get a gold watch. You two have been together longer than a lot of marriages so there is without a doubt qualities in you that keep him coming back. Like you said...family. And even at his worst you saw the qualities in him that were hidden.

The interview is over...relax! All you have to do is be on time and do your job. And when the day is over...punch out and have some fun.

Hugs,
JT

[Magichappens]

Hey Smoke,
I have a problem when things change. Especially while they're changing. I have doubts and fear. I want to know the outcome. My sponsor tells me sometimes we have to sit still and wait. The answers will come if we are willing to see and hear them. SWC said One Day At A Time. That is hard when I feel turmoil. But I know they are right. I have to do my best and let go of the outcomes. I find comfort in the support that is my group, my sponsor, my therapist, and this site. It doesn't take away the discomfort. It just makes it bareable. Hugs, Magic

[Nightowl]

Do you remember that feeling when you walked into your Kindergarten classroom for the first time? Fear, excitement...like you didn't know what to do next. You just wanted to go home. you just wanted Mommy.

Hmmmm...after reading posts on here and especially this one....that is how I feel and I am 44 years old!!

I'm new here. Confused. Excited. Scared. Thinking I'm a co-dependent from wayyyy back.

Rambling now.

[Magichappens]

Hang around Nightowl. You don't have to take it all on at once. Easy Does It is a good alanon slogan. It tooks us a while to get to this point, it will take a while to get out. You are in good company here. Hugs, Magic

[smoke gets in my eyes]

Chime right in and ramble whenever you feel like it Nightowl!

Hugs!