Please define "normal and healthy" for me

[woodtick]

My life has been comprised of short or disastrous relationships. I can't help but wonder why and what I need to do about it. I often wonder if it is my mate selection process, which appears to be a sub-conscious one. My therapist tells me that I have low self-esteem and certain women pick up on that. In retrospect, I believe almost every mate I have been with has cheated on me. It has damaged my psyche to the point that I don't know if I will ever trust a woman completely, which concerns me because I wonder how could I truly love someone I don't completely trust.

I'm not the jealous/controlling type so to speak. I always give my mate the benefit of the doubt when I start to wonder and try to tell myself that everybody is different and I can't compare the person I'm with to other people I have been with. It seems I give my mates all the slack they need and they eventually hang themselves with the rope.

I must not know what a healthy and normal relationship is. I have never had one to model my own relationships from. No baseline to start from if you will. I came from a family where my dad was an alcoholic, my mother came from a foster home and was subsequently disturbed, and my one sibling, who is older, is a drug addict and an alcoholic. My parents separated when I was fourteen and I ran wild ever since. During my last two years of high school I lived with my father. I would regularly leave for school on Friday morning and not come home until Sunday night. I was drinking four or five nights a week and sneaking girls into my room by the time I was a senior. My father knew and didn't say anything. It was certainly not a healthy environment for a young adult to be brought up in.

I have been reading on other sites about love and sex addiction. It appears that I may be in that category considering my relationship history. I am very capable of falling in love but not at maintaining it. I have always had that soul-mate mentality when I first meet a woman wondering if she is "the one" for me. Apparently this is not normal or healthy.

I have been separated from my first wife for two months now and we are going to sign the divorce papers next week. We have been married for four and a half years. Fortunately, there are no children involved. We decided to get married after only a four-month whirlwind romance. We connected so fast and on all levels, we were finishing each other's sentences after knowing each other for only a few weeks. In the past I had always been cautious about marriage, wanting to take it slow and not make the wrong decision. I lost a woman I loved by doing that because she thought I was incapable of commitment, she cheated on me and left for a guy that told her what she wanted to hear. I believe I was sub-consciously afraid of that happening again when I met my wife and let go of my common sense.

My therapist said I should keep from becoming involved in another relationship for a year. I have to agree that it would be the best thing for me. I fear that at this point in my life I would only be rebounding from my marriage and that would be bad for everyone involved. I can't help but fear that I would meet someone during this time that would be a wonderful mate and miss an opportunity of a lifetime because I'm not supposed to be dating. Then again, maybe I have missed opportunities because I was in a serious relationship with the wrong person. I can't seem to win no matter what I do.



Honestly, I've come to the conclusion that I don't know what the hell I'm doing when it comes to relationships. I don't know what normal and healthy is. I have no idea what my role should be much less hers. How will I ever learn if I have no references? Is there a manual with rules and guidelines somewhere? I'm taking taking some sociology and psychology classes this semester and hoping to discover some answers there. It seems that this pattern of behavior is rampant among alcoholics/addicts, of which I am a member of the first group. If there is anybody reading this that has been in my shoes and has found a way out, I beg you to share your experience.

[Trooth]

Low self esteem can be seen by everyone. Male and female. It will affect your relations with both sexes. Women tend to play more control games with guys with low self esteem. They will also use these guys if they know they can get away with it. I have had the same issues. That is one reason why I wouldn't date while I was in my using days. It caused me to feel bad about myself.

By giving so much slack, I wonder if they do not feel like you will let them get away with everything. I have a friend who is cocky. He was always good with women, and still is. I have another friend who is extremely nice, but is always down no himself. They are both good looking guys, but one has had much better success than the other. The other was in a 2 year relationship, they were talking about marriage, and then he found out that she cheated on him. He did the right thing and told her off. And ended the relationship.

You don't have to be a jerk, but you do have to be firm. Women may like to hear nice things all the time, but they don't like butt kissers. I never had a problem getting a date either, but when it came to 2 or 3 months into the relationship I got the, you are like a friend speech.

In retrospect I would change after I got into the relationship, I would over committ myself if you will. I would constantly compliment, pay for things, and be the over sensitive nice guy. What is wrong with that? It isn't what attracted them to start with. I would let my girlfriend wrap me around her finger. Women lose respect for you if you let them do that. The odd thing is that they constantly try to get you to that point for the most part. I also have been obsessive over relationships before, women do not like that either. In fact it is a turn off.

Women will always throw tests at you in a relationship. They want to know these things. Will you let them control the relationship? Will you bend over backwards to keep them? I think it is a test of manhood if you will. If you don't believe me, checkout the book "The Rules". Also check out any romance novel. They tend to have a story where a woman changes the man into the relationship she wants.

What is the good news? You can adjust your outlook on yourself. Look at what was good in attracting women to start with. Before my using days, and now that I am in my post using days, I was confident, and funny. Women love that. Just keep doing what you do at the start. Have a life outside of work and her. Don't bend, kiss butt, or give into control games. Don't settle for less that what you want. And always be firm and confident. Another good tip is to date more than 1 girl at a time, until you find someone you really want to committ too. By doing that you wont will maintain confidence, and you won't be so apt to cave into 1 of them. If you lose one, you are still going out with a number of others.

I have been working on myself for years in that respect. And I am finding that it is paying off. I just have to watch that I don't become obsessive first, and then keep being me. Just 2 weeks ago I was ready to cave in for one girl. I decided to keep shopping, and I am finding more people that are interested, and I am better able to make decisions. I have found that the other girl is a good friend, and if things develop they do, but they probably wont. By keeping my options open I respect myself more, and I am making better choices, and having a great time getting to know some great women. There is no pressure on either of us, just getting to know each other.

[journeygal]

Hi Brent,

As a woman, I think I may have to disagree with some of the stuff Trooth posted, no offense Trooth. Not all women are like the ones you described. Personally, I have always liked the nice guys. True, I like hearing compliments and being treated nicely, but who doesn't? Some women may prefer the "bad boys", but not all. I think the ones that do have their own self-esteem issues that lead them to believe they deserve the bad treatment they get from certain guys.

But, I digress.

Brent, I'm just starting to learn what healthy and normal is. I have struggled with self-esteem issues all my life, and it makes for bad relationship choices and behavior. It is my belief that we attract what we are, and that people who cheat do it b/c of their own self-worth issues. I really don't think it had anything to do with you, you just had a bad knack of attracting someone with the same low self-esteem issues that you have.

So, in order to attract a healthier person, you need to start loving yourself more. You deserve to be in a healthy relationship with a woman who loves and respect you. But if you don't love and respect yourself, how will anyone else? Now, I do agree with Trooth in keeping your options open, while you work on bettering yourself. Start treating yourself the way you want someone else to treat you. None of us had healthy role models, but that doesn't mean we can't treat ourselves better and become healthier people.

Take your time and get to know you better.

Hugs,
JG

[woodtick]

Trooth,
I don't have a problem with meeting or attracting women it's the issue of attracting someone capable of having and maintaining a meaningful relationship for me. It's probably my own fault for dating some of the women I have dated. One can't expect much sincerity from women that live their life's in the fast lane. I probably had it coming with those ones, but the two I loved weren't much like that and they still deceived me.

Honestly, I don't think I could date more than one woman at a time, maybe when I was younger, but I'm 34 now and those games are behind me. I would feel like I was being deceitful. If things worked out with one of them, I would start the relationship feeling like a sneak. This is bad because when I've been sneaky or if I'm feeling guilty or lying about something, everybody knows, you can just see it on my face.

I know what you mean about how they test you. Why do they do that? Maybe we do too and just don't realize it.

Women tend to grow on me after a while too. It's hard to keep feelings at bay for very long especially if the physical part starts. Maybe that is where I'm making my mistake, they get me sucked in before I can see their true colors.

I'm not a big softy either. I make it quite clear up front that if there is any infidelity there is no second chance. I have always been able to stand firm in that rule. My wife separated from me and three days later she was half way across the country seeing her ex-husband. A few weeks later she wanted to reconcile but I wouldn't do it. She called me a hard-ass for not forgiving her. I think she had it in her head that it would strengthen our relationship because that is what happened with her best friend. It sealed our divorce is what it did for us.

I simply do not know what normal and healthy is or how to obtain it. I don't know anybody that has a good marriage that I could ask either.

Journeygal,
I think you have some great advice. Thanks.

'But if you don't love and respect yourself, how will anyone else?"
I think my drinking habits and my ex-wife really knocked the self-respect out of me. It will take time and my therapist to gain that back. The part about loving myself, I don't think I have ever. That would certainly explain some of my self-destructive behavior in the past. This is profound. Thank you! I really have something to think about here. How does one come to love oneself? This sounds like a piece of healthy and normal to me.

[sadman]

Hi woodtick, I have been, and am now in your shoes. I also have had almost all the women in my life cheat. They say it's a self esteem thing I guess. I am now at the point where I just expect it to happen. I never seem to be attracted to "the nice girls" Sometimes I think it must be me. I don't know, may-be I make it happen becuz I'm afraid of losing them. It's almost like I'm testing them now. My ex always said I was controlling, I never saw it. If you find a way off this rollercoaster let me know. I don't know what a normal relationship is. Hope we both find out someday. sadman

[Trooth]

Journeygal,

I know that my post could make you think that to a point. Generalizing is just that, make a general wide spread statement. Look at it this way, relationships always have control games when there is some sort of committment involved. As children we test our parents, we play control games. Parents do the same to children. Men and women in committed relationships do the same thing.

My issue with the compliments, is overplaying them. You have to really watch what you are complimenting in dating. Saying a woman is hot, is not as much a compliment as saying I want in your shorts... Saying I like how you curled your hair is personal and thoughful. Saying I want you so bad constantly, grovelling, buying everything for them, it makes you look desperate, and quite frankly is probably an accurate perception of someone who does that. It begs to be walked on.

My approach is just to be me. I don't lie, I don't kiss butt, I don't send bunches of gifts. I have no problem with dating more than one person at a time. I don't hide it if asked. I don't consider a second or third or fourth date a committment. I don't expect that out of them either. If things progress further, then that conversation could spark up. I have not and never will cheat on someone I am seeing exclusively. And I will not ever go on a date with someone who is engaged, married, or has a steady boyfriend.

Again, I don't like the cocky look at my job, car, good looks or muscle approach. A good woman will see right through that. It is just the balance between the two extremes. Being nice is necessary and should be natural. I hope this explains a little more.

[Trooth]

Woodtick,

Well I guess dating isn't the problem then, I may have just taken your post the wrong way. It doesn't sound like it is you at all. You may want to take more time in your searching. I still think that keeping options open is better. If the physical relationship starts to get your emotions and hormones over worked you may want to put that off for a committed relationship, and just keep dating till you find someone you really like and get with outside the physical relationship.

As far as marriages go, I have friends who have divorced, some who are in horrible relationships, and some who are happy. It's a two way street. But you sound like you are you. If there was an easy way to define a good healthy, fits all, relationship, there would be a book on it. On top of that people do change, so it gets rougher as time goes on. Some people just become incompatible as time goes on.

I look for my someone that I can call my best friend first, lover second. I need both, but one is more important than the other in the long run.

[woodtick]

Trooth,
I hear you when you say one is more important than the other in the long run. I couldn't agree with you more.

BTW, I read your story and that brings back some memories of myself 10 or 12 years ago. I used to get drunk and get into coke once in a while. I would tell myself that I was only going to spend $100 and somehow that never ended up being enough. I hit my rock bottom with coke when my father caught me the day after I had a big party at my house. He stopped by to say hi, opened the door and there I was, in my finest hour. I had been drinking and snorting all night and I was a disgusting mess. I was sitting in on living room floor, in my underwear, with my back propped against the couch and my glass coffee table pulled up to my chest. I had coke all over the table and I was trying to snort more but I could hardly get my head off the table I was so messed up. All I remember was looking up at him and he said "what the F##K." It took three days to recover from being strung-out and hung-over. My dad never said anything to me afterward and I never did coke again.

[Trooth]

Yeah lady cocain can be a ***** and a b*tch at the same time. It somehow seems a bit easier to end when you can remove yourself from the scene and discipline yourself. The withdrawels don't seem to be anything like the problems that the meth, heroin, and opiates that others get addicted too. I am thankful for my recovery, and I am thankful for everyone in my life that has helped especially the members of this forum.

When I replied, I was looking at it more from a dating perspective. I haven't found a long term meaningful healthy relationship either to this point. I guess it is kind of subjective, due to everyone being different. I find it hard to put past relationships in the past, and look at everyone with a new slate. I am just getting back into the dating seen myself, so I am way behind as far as long term relationships goes, my last serious long term relationship would have been eight years ago.