Newly Alanoned (long Post)

[Ago]

I am a Sober man with 16 years in the AA, although only 7 months of sobriety at this time, I have worked the steps maybe six times, have had long term sobriety, sponsored many men, taken them through the steps, had a long term relationship with another sober person, that ended when I moved to help my family (long distant didn't work for her) we are still very close friends, and talk frequently. I am dating an "A" who has just come in the program, we have been together nearly two years, she qualifies as an "A' easily, she entered the program nearly two months ago, goes to a meeting or two a week, has relapsed once, lied about it to me. She appears very enthusiastic about the program to others but...distant about it to me.

We started dating when I wasn't going to meetings and was DEEP in the throes of going through "family of origin" issues, I had moved to help my family (take over their restaurant) and was living on the same property and working with with 3 practicing alcoholics and a practicing junkie. Everything they said to me was a lie, they did what alkies and junkies do, which is use me until they didn't need me anymore, then discard me.

I got extremely ill...mentally, I couldn't understand what was happening, my reality didn't match what was being said, it was very confusing. This was my state of mind when I started dating this woman, we had an extremely rocky relationship, with break ups, poison emails, fights like i never experienced in my life, with her saying the most awful, evil things about me I have ever heard one human being say to another. It exactly matched my experience I was having with my family, and to say I ultimately behaved poorly to everyone concerned was an understatement. I drank after two years, drank for maybe six months, I didn't have any "consequences" until I decided to get sober again, made phone calls to my sober friends down south, made plans to go stay with them for a week or two and go to meetings, then promptly got a DUI, but was a "daily drinker" immediately.

7 months ago I got sober again, started going to meetings, got a sponsor, then things came to a head with my family, and I made a decision and left in a matter of three days. I have been attending meetings daily, sometimes two, I have been calling 3-5 sober alcoholics a day, I have been reaching out to newcomers, I am currently looking for a sponsor (I have asked a few "old timers" they have said No) I feel I want someone with long term sobriety who is smarter then I am, and who will call me on my BS. I know the book inside out, have been to 3 BB seminars, and can tie most people in knots with my BS including myself. As a former sponsee said to me recently (he has 15 years now) "You know, we all special here but you special special, you need a special special sponsor"

Anyway, a few months ago, the woman I was dating and I broke up, she tried to get back together with me, but I said, "unless you go to therapy and Alanon it will never work, we speak a different language, and I want someone in my life who knows the basics of a relationship and has done some work on herself"

She attended a few Alanon meetings, went to therapy for awhile, then decided AA looked funner, and truthfully actually turned out to be an Alkie, (self diagnosed) and actually started sending me writings...I was...slowly drawn back in...there was recovery in those pages...there was ownership of actions,...I...saw recovery there. One of the patterns that has been consistent with us and our break ups has been "the hearts and flowers" phase, where she answers the phone, ...owns her part...is very loving, in short, is a wonderful girlfriend. Shortly after we get back together, she'll stop going to meeting, stop answering the phone, stop seeing the therapist etc, in short, she's "all better now" and she starts drifting away again, putting distance in between us, until we get in a fight, break up, a week or two later here she comes, hearts, flowers, recovery, taking responsibility for her part...in short, My dream girl" I have seen this maybe a dozen times if not more.

We are presently drifting apart again, she has a little over 30 days of sobriety, is down to one meeting a week (she has a commitment) she has stopped answering the phone again (except if I bring it to her attention, then answer the phone maybe...for a day or two, but I am always surprised when she actually answers the phone any more, although she works from home, and/or always keeps her cell phone close in case her daughter calls.

We have had 3 fights in the last month, one when she looked me right in the eyes and lied to me about drinking, another when she took me to a wedding reception, left me in the hotel room since i wasn't invited, told me she would be back in an hour, maybe two hours tops, and left me in the hotel room for 4.5 hours, then absolutely flipped when I got angry about it, then a week or two ago I finally got angry about her not answering the phone, and not even calling me back in a timely manner just to say "I'm busy, lets talk later"...something...just....something, so anyway, the following is a stream of consciousness I am having about all this.

Can I ever really trust her? Will she ever stop lying? She has consistently lied to me since we started dating, mostly about "small" things but I have caught her dozens and dozens of "white lies" and a few "Important Lies".

Will I ever truly feel "safe" in this relationship?

Is she too damaged by her own past, then by my own actions at the beginning of this relationship to ever trust me? After I dated her a few times, she absolutely freaked out, started talking about marriage, kids, my behavior etc...we had slept together maybe two or three times, I was like "Whoa, this chick is COMPLETE wack and I made the decision to walk away, just walked away, didn't say anything, started dating another woman, she came back to me, wooed me until we started dating again and there was some overlap, I stopped sleeping with this other person but she REALLY liked me and pursued me for months afterwords, MY GF ended up going through my emails, reading them all the way back to the beginning, so I "cheated" on her. Truthfully...what I did was cheating, I wouldn't want it done to me, and looking at the bald facts...I made a mistake, I really did, I made amends for it, fessed up, promised it would never happen again (which it hasn't) and started taking actions to earn her trust, checking in, always being available, always letting her know where I was etc.

So when will she spy on me again? use a keylogger on my computer again? search through my cell phone again? read my emails? look through my phone bill again? Say truly horrible things about me, or to me again?

is she really, or has she ever really been my friend?

I don't think so, because I don't think she knows how to have a friend, deep down inside she doesn't trust me, she doesn't trust anyone.

How much of that is me? I'd probably have to say some, maybe even a good deal from issues at the very start of the relationship, then my insistence that she "own her part" on situations and the fact when she gets "defended" I get angry and do "attack" although all I am asking for is maybe an apology, maybe for her to acknowledge my feelings and not invalidate my feelings, however she doesn't validate my feelings EVER unless we have a knockdown, drag out fight, in which case she will give me an extremely vague apology about "being sorry we fought, or sorry you got upset" very generic apologies taking no responsibility for her part etc., but ultimately I'd have to say it was a pre-existing condition, However just about every time she has ever come to me with an issue, I have responded with love and support, I own my part, apologize, and make amends, change my behavior, nurture her etc. but if I go to her for love, reassurance, nurturing etc. she flat out says "I can't reassure you" that it's "my problem" and if I get threatened by a man in her life, and actually say "I am afraid, this situation scares me" she gets extremely angry and thinks I am calling her a cheater although she needs constant reassurance about any female I ever talk to, and has actually said she doesn't want me talking to my ex or seeing her as well as many other women. She will search through my cell phone and ask me about the names she finds, go to my Myspace and grill me about any women she finds there but adds tons of men to her "sites" with no explanation and gets extremely angry with me if I ask about them and thinks I am accusing her of cheating.

When my ex-GF said to me, all those years ago, you are the first person I have ever been with that is actually on my side...isn't that what I need in a relationship...someone who is on my side?

Is she on my side?

looking at the evidence, I have to say no, emphatically no.

When she comes to me with issues, I have just about ALWAYS been loving and supportive, I'd say nearly every time, I give her love, nurturing, admit my part promptly, change my behavior, however when I come to her with issues, whether abandonment issues, trust issues, her lying to me, disappearing, jealousy, whatever, she gets SUPER defensive then feels "attacked" even if I use "I" messages, and then we have this HUGE fight with her unable to see her part, much less take responsibility for it, and she is absolutely unable to nurture me, or soothe me, she is too worried about not being "wrong" and too defended, so then we fight and she ends up really feeling "attacked" because I try to get her to see her part and see how actions impact me then she REALLY feels that I am not "on her side", when all I want is a hug, all I want is to be reassured, to be comforted, for her to "own her part" to acknowledge me and my feelings, she consistently invalidates my feelings, saying I'm over reacting, or that it "has nothing to do with the relationship" if she's not actually sleeping with another man, that's the only reason to have negative feelings, or be scared, is if it involves another person of the opposite sex...she needs loving, or reassurance on occasion, although less and less as I am very nurturing, caring, trustworthy etc. but when I need it...no go, no love, no reassurance, it's "my problem" and her position is "I haven't done anything wrong" even if I "catch her hand actually in the cookie jar" or even if her behavior played a part in how I feel, whether it be lying, not answering the phone, saying one thing and doing another, disappearing etc.

So will she ever stop lying? stop being so defensive? being so hateful and hurtful when cornered or threatened? will she ever be able to "own her part? Stop hurting me so bad? saying such hurtful things about me and to me?

Will she ever stop being so self centered? She's self centered in a very similar way actually as my mother, but she's extremely self centered when it comes to "us" and she has no idea how her actions impact me, nor does she ever take responsibility for those actions (lying, disappearing, not answering the phone, saying hurtful things, etc. etc.) She is completely "out of touch" with her emotions, she only has two, come closer or get away, lovey dovey or distant and detached.

Do I want to be in a relationship I feel insecure in all the time, knowing that deep down she despises me, because deep down she despises herself? I know this because of the emails she has written to me, the things she has said to me, the posts she's made on the internet about me. knowing she doesn't trust me because she herself is a pathological liar, who at this moment in time is unconstitutionally incapable of being honest even with herself, that may change as time goes on, and she works the steps, but today, the one thing I can count on is for her to lie to me, to "hide" things, so when she does tell the truth I can't tell, and truthfully don't believe her, because she has consistently lied to me during our whole relationship, that hasn't changed

The one thing I can count on is for her to "hide", whether the issue is a big one or small one, I can count on her not telling me the truth, i can count on her to hide something, if not everything.

The bad news is there is a part of me that believes all the terrible things she has said about me, there is a part of me that feels "less then", and lacking in integrity when I know that's not the case, especially after what happened with my family, I am especially vulnerable. With her I am repeating the relationship with my sister and my mother, my mother in that, she makes all these promises to get me to "come back" but the moment I'm in, she changes her mind, my sister in that she she has the total inability to own her part, and all discussions go to "no you, no you" and point out all my flaws, real and imagined.

The interesting thing is, the people who are "recovered" and have integrity, honesty etc, view me the same way, as if I have these qualities, and I tell them the unvarnished truth about myself, these are the people that know me, know my secrets, know my skeletons, know every ugly thing there is to know about me, but the people in my life who aren't recovered, paint me with their character defects.

I feel sick...I feel insecure, uncertain of who I am, I have low self esteem....uncertain of myself and my choices...unable to use my intuition because my intuition is being over ridden...I doubt myself, my virtue, my choices, my integrity, I doubt if I am a "good man" because she has told me so many times what a terrible person I am, a homeless, jobless, cheating, manipulative, abusive, lying, blah blah blah...I am so unhappy...I am obsessed by her however...I feel like I am addicted to a drug that doesn't work any more....we aren't making love, she doesn't answer the phone in the afternoons now...now she is sending me home...not letting me see her...does she have a lover?


I caught her looking right in my eyes and lying to me recently (again) about her drinking (this is the first time I KNOW of about her lying about her drinking, but she has lied to me about stuff the entire relationship), I said, "I am sorry you feel you have to lie to me, but when you lie to me, I will have trouble trusting you, and I don't want this in my relationships any more." she came unglued, and bristled with indignation and said "are you questioning my integrity? It's not a lie, it's a white lie, it has NOTHING to do with you. it means nothing in the grand scheme of things. you are over reacting. You are a drama queen. you need to pick your battles, and this isn't a good one for you. why do you always say everything I do 'impacts' the relationship, why do you always have to blow things so far out of proportion, why do you always have to use such big words?" Then she attacked me and wrote I wasn't working a program, I only went to meetings to get something, I was always a liar, every time i opened my mouth it was to lie, I was a homeless, jobless, cheater, that didn't have a sponsor, the attack went on and on. She later wrote "this isn't about him being a homeless, jobless, cheater, there are stories about all of it and I have forgiven him" (by applying these labels to me, then saying she forgave me, once again, making herself "the good guy" and fully establishing the fact I was a loser, but she was a big enough person to forgive me, leaving out every important part, such as I JUST ******* MOVED to escape from an extremely toxic, ****** situation where my so called "family" had done me beyond wrong, beyond evil) and truthfully she didn't help me move, help me financially, let me stay with her (except on fri-sat night), and I had been visiting her two days a week anyway, then she subsequently threw those two days in my face about how she was "letting me stay with her" and about "how supportive" she was being.

She thinks because she has "cash register" honesty, and she is a good employee and mother, (and she is, a wonderful mother and an incredible employee), that she has "integrity" when in fact, her lying, inability to apologize, and inability to ever take responsibility for her actions in our relationship, makes her have absolutely no integrity in our relationship as far as I can tell.

Is she now, and has she been cheating on me here at home? Does she have a lover?

I don't know, and I wouldn't be able to trust any answer she gave me she has lied SO many times to me in the past.

She travels for work and I have to ask myself does she cheat on me when she travels? I don't know, I do know I can't believe a word out of her mouth, I've caught her lying to me dozens of times, even recently, lying by omission, prevarication, evasion, changing the subject by attacking me, making me the "bad guy". I do know she frequently "disappears" when she's on the road, doesn't answer the phone at night, doesn't call when she says she will, and she has lied right to my face (In Denver, she wrote she was going to bed, then rode a bus across town, went to Coors field, was holding hands with a guy, and called me drunk and crying as she nearly got "date raped" by some guy)

She has a teenage daughter, and one thing I can count on, which has been consistent in the past is when her daughter spends the night at a friends house on the weekend, she won't answer the phone all night. This happened three Fridays in a row once, so one the third Friday I went to her house, she wasn't there. She generally dresses comfortably (blue jeans, flannels) and I had purchased some very sexy clothes for her for Christmas (mini dress, knee high black leather boots, black tights) I had asked her to wear these for me a few times, and she wouldn't, however, that night I went to her "watering hole" and there she was, dressed to kill, sitting with a man who was all over her, running his hands up and down her back as they leaned together to talk (the band was very loud) I stood directly in front of them for nearly ten minutes, and they never looked up they were so intent on each other, I finally stuck my face in hers and said "HELLO, OH YOO HOO!!!" the man dashed away, I walked outside, she followed then yelled at me for 20 minutes about how badly I embarrassed her and what an A-hole I was while I actually just sat there and laughed.

I told a number of friends about this, every one of them advised leaving her, saying she was "dressed to kill" and now I know where she is when she doesn't answer the phone, She and I talked later, and all she could do is tell me I was an A-hole, that my view of the world was completely distorted, and why was I dragging her name through the mud and once again I was being a drama queen and lived in a distorted F'd up world and he was just a "friend".

All of her "friends" have been lovers, she has never been able to have a relationship last longer then six months, and many of her "friends" she met on "adult sites" and not Match.com either, some of her "friends" are married men she had affairs with that she lied to me about for well over a year, saying that they were "just friends" and she didn't understand why his wife and friends treated her like "the other woman" when in fact that's exactly what she was, she got extremely indignant about how she and her daughter were treated and shunted off to the side when his wife was around. She has NO female friends, just ex-lovers she calls friends.

the things that have been consistent in this relationship are:
Her lying to me
Her hiding things from me
Her "running away" and breaking up with me
her abuse of me
her belittling me
her disappearing acts, sometimes for the night, sometimes for a few days, once for a whole weekend
her inability to apologize
her inability to "own her part"
her double standards....
her flipping out if I have a negative emotion, then attacking me and making it "my fault"
her rarely answering the phone, at times for days on end
her absolutely horrific attacks on me if I "rock her boat" or catch her in a lie, catch her in another man's arms, her 3 day disappearance, her romance she lied about while we were broken up, but she was calling me five times a day telling me she loved me, having phone sex with me, begging me to come down, meanwhile dating another man,
all the men "friends" on Flickr including the swinger/porn "friend" that appeared there a week after she met him while traveling that she partied with one of the nights she "disappeared" .......it goes on and on, when i pointed out he was a swinger, she was like "oh, I didn't know he lived "the lifestyle"", kicked him off, then re-invited him a week later when we got in a fight and she broke up with me...probably about her evasiveness and lying yet again.

I won't say it's been all bad, she has many wonderful qualities, and there are many things I truly love about her but I have to ask myself:

Is this all really worth it?

Why am I staying in this relationship?

Why am I repeating all my family dynamics?

Why am I trapped in a such situation again where I tell myself if I just try harder, she'll love me, a relationship based on "If only this, then that" why am I involved in a relationship with someone who is consistently emotionally unavailable, and frequently physically unavailable?

what does my gut say?

I'm a mess.

[GiveLove]

Sometimes, a stranger who's standing outside of your situation might see things a little differently than you do.

I'm the stranger, and I'm wondering:

Why would you want to stay in a relationship with a person - ANY person, A or non, sober or not - who lies to you, sleeps around behind your back, and treats you like dirt? (and honestly, that's not fair to dirt...I treat my dirt better than she treats you)

If you were to say, "This isn't what I want for myself, I don't deserve this pain and confusion, so I'm done," would the sky come falling down, your life over, end of story?

I am thinking that it would not be hard at all to find someone who treats you better than this woman does. I think you could walk out onto the street and bump into ten people in ten minutes who would treat you better. Even the IRS, Hell's Angels, Dick Cheney, Dog the Bounty Hunter would treat you better.

It sounds like you are at least trying to learn how not to repeat the mistakes you've made over the past few years. You're trying to find your way to healing. This relationship appears to be pulling you down, not lifting you up. You are degrading yourself with this kind of dishonest filth. And you DO have a choice in the matter.

Why not walk away?

Why not get some help breaking your addiction to this person?

You deserve so much better than this.

[Ago]

thanks, yeah we just broke up, I'm just hoping I have the strength to walk away and stay there this time, I have gone back.....over and over...and strangely enough, "expected different results" lolol

I just need the strength to walk away now, and stay gone, thank you for your reply

[anvilhead]

there are a lot of dynamics going on here, not the least to say that at the EXACT same time YOU are trying to deal with Family of Origin issues, along comes an alcoholic.....and even tho the relationship has been rocky and ugly sometimes, with lies and yelling and pain, i bet it's also eerily familiar......and i believe when we have unresolved issues we tend to gravitate or create those issues over and over again, UNTIL we got nuts or change. keep working on YOU, stick close to your program, stick close to your sponsor, your meeting friends and associates, if you decide to dig into your past do so in a structured way - either working the steps with your sponsor, and not stopping at step 4.5.........or perhaps with a therapist or another support group (Al Anon, ACOA, Boundary workshops, etc) that is "familiar" with how best to approach these issues in a safely managed way that doesn't leave you vulnerable and exposed. good luck and take care!

[Ago]

agreed....

right now I am treating this as if it were a drug, and praying to be "relieved of the obsession of the mind" as well as burning up my cell phone hours reaching out to other sober alcoholics with similar experience.

I completely see that in this relationship I exactly duplicated what was happening with my family, and I am desperate to get through a 4th step around this, the previous 14 years of sobriety, I thought I had laid these issues to rest through the steps and therapy but what has become very apparent to me was I avoided them by...well just hadn't worked through them thoroughly or they wouldn't be there today.

Anyway, thank you for your input, I went to dinner with an old sponsee last night and how he put it is "you are in a new playground now. The kids at the last school beat you up and were mean to you and if you go back there again I will "tell on you" and we will subject you to ridicule (my friends are pretty hardcore) and as a wise man once said "anyone who dates a newcomer gets exactly what he deserves" ( I shared that at a meeting a few days before my GF decided to get sober) and my friends have been hammering me with that quote every time I whine and complain amidst howls of laughter.

Well Day one of being single, I had broken up with her moments before I posted that, wish me love and strength everyone, pray for me, I need all the help I can get right now, this issue has brought me to my knees.

[anvilhead]

sounds like you have one HELL of a support group!!! hey ya know what? some of our BEST learning comes from the failed attempts, the fumblings, and frustrations. we're not slow learners, we just have a LOT to learn and/or relearn!!! and at least when we get our @ss handed to us, we know right where it is, right?

[GiveLove]

The best obsession-killer I ever started was taking up jogging.

Mind you, I'd never been able to run a hundred yards; I'd get winded just walking downstairs for coffee and danish.

So I started doing the running programs on CoolRunning.com and pushed my body so hard that all I could do was collapse on the carpet and fall asleep. I'd even TRY to think of my XABF, and my inner voice would say, "**** you, I'm too busy to deal with that ****" Seriously, too tired to care. At all. And I slept well, which made me even stronger. Worked for me, anyway.

Stay busy, ago, doing things you love and being with people who treat you great. Multiple good nights' sleep, B vitamins, natural light, fresh air, and your support group.......and you will heal.

Then, the world is your oyster.

[Ago]

worked out so hard today I didn't know if I was gonna puke, cry, or fall down....I was trembling like a leaf and could barely drive home where I collapsed in bed and promptly slept for 2 hours.

been burning up the hours on my cell phone listening to 10 different people say the same things to me in ten different ways.

Each time I want to think about it, I think of what a friend said to me, "If I were to go to the Ghetto at 2AM looking like I had a lot of $$$ it would only be a matter of time before I was mugged and hurt, I could blame the people who hurt me, or I could just choose not to go there" so every time I even begin to think about her, or the relationship or any of the 1000 things about it all that make my eyeballs spin in my head, I ask myself "why am I going back to the Ghetto?" and it stops instantly.

Each day is a little easier.

Thanks again for your responses, just got back from a meeting where I took a commitment at a Saturday Night meeting, so at least I know I'm safe for 6 months of Saturday Nights, next week I think I will take a Friday Night commitment.

[Ago]

Gaaaaa!!!!!!

Here come the emails from her!!!!! Of course everything is "my fault" and I "need professional help" and she will be attending my Home Group this week for "her sobriety" although it's an hour drive from her house and there are PLENTY of meetings in the city she lives in

Don't go to the ghetto
Don't go to the ghetto
Don't go to the ghetto
Don't go to the ghetto

[hopefullyagain]

Wait. On top of emails from her, she is going to drive an hour out of her way to go to your meeting? Does she usually go to your meeting? It seems a little stalkerish to me. Think of that as another reason to stay away from that ghetto. Do yourself a favor and just don't respond, no matter what she does. It will only bring you down to her level and you definitely don't want that.

[Ago]

Originally Posted by hopefullyagain

Wait. On top of emails from her, she is going to drive an hour out of her way to go to your meeting? Does she usually go to your meeting? It seems a little stalkerish to me. Think of that as another reason to stay away from that ghetto. Do yourself a favor and just don't respond, no matter what she does. It will only bring you down to her level and you definitely don't want that.

Yes, she is going out of her way an hour to come to that meeting...she has attended a few times but more often then not she hasn't.

It's VERY stalkerish

Plan A: Stay out of the Ghetto (don't engage with or respond to her no matter what)

[Ago]

/sigh

I dragged my "A" kicking and screaming to alanon and AA meetings and therapy, introduced her to women (which she got really angry at me for), made sure she got numbers, in short, "Co'd" her, finally couldn't deal with her emotional pushme/pullyou and surreptitious emotional manipulation and abuse any more, broke up with her, now she is telling anyone who will listen about how I "abused" her, I kept her in isolation (she didn't have one friend when we met and hadn't for years) and her drinking was due to me and the abusive relationship.

Wouldn't be a problem except she is doing this with the women I introduced her to, my friends, and going to my groups (an hour out of her way) to do it, I've asked her to please not come to the meetings where I have commitments, she lives in a City an hour away, there are plenty of meetings there, but she has informed me she is coming for her "sobriety" although coming to those meetings when we were together was a lot less important.

Gaaaaa

Way to shoot myself in the foot

I can't even begin to convey how violated and afraid this makes me, these people are my support group, i know my actual "support group" won't believe her...but this is horrific.

detach detach detach

follows the MO though


Like physical abusers, emotional abusers will often stalk their former partners. The stalker's objective is often to control them through cultivating fear rather than making direct or specific threats, or confronting them.

This is a subtle form of terrorism, because abuse victims are often very emotionally afraid of their abusers once they wake up. They are, in effect, pissing on their boundaries (something abusers have no respect for) and trying to make them their own.

Ex-partners of abusers will often express fear of their abuser, and will have no desire to be anywhere near the abuser. On the other hand, the abuser may try to appear as if he is calm, rational, and still supportive of his ex-partner, despite the fact that he will also express the opinion that he believes she is quite unstable.

They will make statements such as saying that they "bears their "ex" no ill-will", etc., but then will show no respect for their boundaries or their requests for him to stay away from them. The abuser will still inquire with friends as to how the ex is doing, implying that their inquiry is because they cares about the ex - they do care - about retaining those last vestiges of control, even after the breakup.

What they really wants to know is if the ex is suffering or doing badly, because that feeds their sick ego. They feel best when they put other people in as much pain as they are in.

thank you for letting me vent