Pain medication vs. anit depressant?

[Mercedes1]

I have not looked through this forum so forgive me if this question seems childish but I honestly do not understand why doctor's, media, general medical concession is that pain meds are absolute "no no" but anti depressants you can get by just showing up at a drs office and asking for them..if they don't work, they give you something else, if that doesnt work, them mix and match till they find one that does the job.

The problem with this approach is the SIDE EFFECTS of anti depresants in my mind are absolutely mind boggling with danger, addiction (anything that messes with the brain can be mis-managed)..

I went to the doctor at my bottom a couple years ago. I have always been a strong opponent to drugs for depression BUT this time, I was so down I was willing to try.

When I asked my doctor about all the hideous side effects and withdrawals to the anti-depressants his reply was this...

"...if the BENEFITS out weight the side effects, and the benefits make you feel good about yourself, allow you to be more productive..then that is the one for you..."

So here is my question..I proceeded to try atleast 3 until I gave up. I became:

insomniac
paranoid
MORE DEPRESSED
EXTREMELLY TIRED ALL DAY, then up all night
unfocused
stomache ache..
general nausea.

Now to get to the point,,,2 years later I started to get sick alot ...tonsils need to be taken out basically. My doctor gave me a light narcotic "tylenol 3". It helped alot with the throat but also what I noticed is:

I had a light feeling of mood (not heavy, dark, but more pleasant)
I was more focused
I slept like a baby
Relaxed during day NOT horribly tired
Had energy

Anyway, to me if what the doctor said is true..then this pain killer is the best anti depressant for me. I did not have ANY side effects getting off of it. And while on it I just had a little dry mouth and constipated .

The others (anti-depress) had tons of side effects on it and off.

I read some where that a woman went to her doctor and he prescibed what she said as "cocktail" of drugs for her depression. Her reply was..why not just give me *()*** and be done with it (it was some pain med) and he said NO.

I don't get it. If you read through some of the Anti Depressants like Prozac..it is now prescribed as a "pain med"?!!!! It is used for PMS??? and yet it has the most hideous side effects and with drawals...I have heard people committing suicide or boing bonkers on it if it hits you wrong.. but if you find something that works in form of a pain..no.

So would like your comments. I realize if you take 20 a day..yes, that is defnitly not what I am talking about.

but if you take 2 a day..and it improves your mind and body..what is wrong with that. Some of the pain meds like tramadol works in the brain the exact same way as anti depressents if you read the literature.

[Anna]

I believe I would not be alive were it not for anti-depressants. I began taking them about 8 years ago and will continue for the rest of my life. I have stopped taking them twice and never, ever experienced any problems stopping. But, withing ten days, I find myself curled up under the blankets unable and unwilling to get out of bed. I have absolutely no side-effects. However, I did have side-effects from two anti-depressants that I tried and it was third one that worked for me. The side-effect I had was restlessness/restless legs, so sleeping was really difficult.

It is also a fact that some antidepressants are used for pain management. Amitryptiline, an anti-depressant has been investigated as a pain reliever and appears to be the most popular anti-depressant analgesic. Certain kinds of pain have been found to respond favorably to anti-depressant administration. I have fibromyalgia and coincidentally amitriptyline helps with the pain.

I have also used Tylenol 3 for migraines. Tylenol 3 contains codeine which is addictive. I suspect that if you began taking two a day, it wouldn't be too long before you needed 3 or 4 to achieve the same feelings that you had, because the effect of the codeine would be lessened as time goes on. And, I know from reading on this board that withdrawl from codeine is absolutely brutal and very difficult. I believe, the reason drs do not prescribe pain medication readily, is because narcotic pain medication, like Tylenol 3, is highly addictive.

[Mercedes1]

Thanks Anna. I never rec'd any anti-dep that helped. I believe I do have a level of depression. I only know when I took the Tylenol 3 I had a sense of "well being". That's it..no "high", no "low"..I still could think, focus, sleep, pray, meditate..work. so to me its a miracle drug. I guess that is what would make it addictive. It works. So you want to take more.

But I think it also applies to anit-depressants. I read the boards on those too..people switch all the time when they get to the point "no more effective"...they do come with withdrawals...I have read some pretty scary ones.

Neither pain meds or anit-depressants are "innocents" to addiction and withdrawals.

[kmsj75]

I shared your opinion, and found a doctor that was willing to go the narcotic route (hence a large reason why I am in recovery today.)

My experience was that while I did find the relief that you described, it went away after a while on the drug (hydrocodone.) I also have fibro. The problem was that I began to see a difference in how the drug made me feel. It had sort of a "speed" effect and then I would crash and have to take more. I also had to keep going up in dosage and strength, until it didn't work at all.

I have had withdraw symptoms on both anti-depressants and narcotics. I'll take anti-depressants over narcotics anytime. There was no comparison.

As far as describing anti-depressants for pain, studies have shown that a contributing factor in fibromyalgia is low levels of seritonin. Anti-depressants boosts those levels.

As for people committing suicide on anti-depressants, it has to be taken into consideration why they were taking it to begin with. Of course there will be a higher rate of suicide- it is prescribed for depression and mental illness.

I was also placed on klonopin for fibro, as it helps induce stage 4 sleep (another contributing factor in the syndrome.) I used it as prescribed, never really abused it, and had no idea I was addicted to it. Talk about bad withdraw- seizures, tremors that lasted for months, etc. Not worth it. I now take trazadone, which in not addictive.

I'm not so sure that I would agree that anti-depressants are "addictive" just as narcotics are "addictive." In my mind, there is a huge difference. Narcotics are addictive because of the high they produce. While anti-depressants might be addictive in the sense that you might go through a physical withdraw when you cease to use them, they do not produce that instant "it's all better" feeling.

Just my experience and opinion talking here.

There are also other medications that have been proven to lessen the pain of fibromyalgia. Being a drug addict, I would much more inclined to try these instead of using drugs that I know will cause problems in my recovery. My body doesn't know the difference between using drugs for medicinal purposes and using the for recreation.

[Anna]

I disagree Merecedes. This is just me.

I tried three different anti depressants and I never, ever had any withdrawls from any of them.

Antidepressants do sometimes stop working, but it's because the body simply stops reacting to that medication, for some reason. As I said, I have been on the same antidepressant for 8 years and have never changed the dose or ever needed to.

Narcotics are scary.

[Toomutch]

Mercedes - I too have been on anti-depressants for a long time and like Anna I always will be. I just had to add a mood stabalizer to the mix for breakthrough depression, and manic episodes.

I also take pain meds for fibromyalgia, and I take them as directed.

Perhaps the reason you felt so good on the Ty 3 is because it made you a little high. With continued use it may become addictive and you may need more and more to reach that same euphoric state of mind.

All the pain meds will do is mask your depresssion, where as if you find the right anti- depressant it will regualte your depression. JMO

[nandm]

As a person who utilizes both a pain medication and anti-depressants I found your post interesting.

My experience is that pain meds never gave me relief from my depression. In fact Vicodin increases my depression and I become quite suicidal even when on anti-depressants. On anti-depressants I do not get a "high". They levelize the chemicals in my brain so that it functions correctly. They leave me feeling "normal" rather than feeling like dying even though there is no reason to feel that way. When I take the pain med for my back pain I can tell that it does produce a "high". I become more talkative and wired. Personally I do not like the feeling. I do not like the feeling of being on the edge of out of control, which is one reason I hate depression as in a depression I know the throughts I have are wrong but I can not stop my brain from feeling them.

That said, there are several anti-depressants that also help with pain but do not produce the "high" that pain killers produce. Cymbalta is one that is also prescribed for diabetic neuropathy pain. Prozac is prescribed for PMS, but rather than for the pain of the cramps it is to help with the mood swings of PMS. Amitryptaline as stated earlier is also one that helps with pain. There are many more out there. But please realize that just because a med may have a dual use it does not mean that it is necessarily the same thing. Pain meds are for pain, most tend to block the pain receptors. Anti-depressants levelize the brain chemicals.

Personally I will take my anti-depressants any day over pain meds. Not only does my recovery depend upon it but also my sanity.

[shockozulu]

Anti-depressants can help a person deal with the pain. That is why they are often prescribed alone or with pain medication. I have had withdrawals from them, but that was because I still needed them.

[Mercedes1]

Thanks to all your honest and open answers. I found it interesting the "masking depression vs. "regulating" it"? I guess I never understood (still don't what that means). I am not moody. And when I was sick and was given the tylenol 3 as I started to get better (well that is from my sickness) I found my mood more consistent than ever with the tylenol.

Anti depressents have nothing to regulate with me as if they don't make you feel better..mood wise then what is there to regulate? I guess maybe I am not a candidate for them them.

When I took them in one day I felt overly tired and being that I am also an alchoholic that is the #1 trigger to drink..overly tired..and yes, made me depressed.. LOL

God only knows why I becme sick so much in my sobriety..but because I was sober I noticed the difference all to well. Nothing like drinking..where immediate hangover sets in. And as I said no withdrawals as I didnt get depressed after..it was a nice easy feeling from beginnign to end.

The only thing different was I noticed right after I took them *not being depressed but just myself..I felt a nice pleasant feeling of well being. So it is what it is..

Thanks anyway...I realize they could be addictive just in my experience Id take a narcotic over anti-dep unless I find one that actualy works for me.

Also, I have a very close girlfriend that was on both mood stabilizer and anti-dep for over 10years...she has gone through hell trying to wean off of it..no sleep, headaches, she just told me the other day she had basically a manic attack..crying hysterically just trying to wean off,

They were prescribed to her when she went through a bad breakup years ago and bad pms. Some price to pay for that.

She also *imho over the years on them..was still moody .

[jazpoppy]

Any opiod will cause a lift in mood. So its not a good idea to be used as an anti-depressant unless the doctor sees it as a last resort. Ultram (which turns into a narcotic in your body (something like codeine) and also an SSRI (like paxil or celexa) and that's why Ultram gives a mood lift, but its not used as an anti-depressant because its addictive. You would need to talk to your doctor about how you feel on certain anti-depressants, and if you are an opiate addict (not sure if you are or were), you may be a candidate for Suboxone therapy (replacement therapy like Methadone only less addictive than methadone, and it has mood lifting properties, but is NOT to be used ONLY FOR DEPRESSION). Its only for people who are addicted (not WERE addicted) to pain killers like oxycontin, vicodin, percoset, fentanyl, morphine and methadone also street drugs like herion. So if that's not your problem, please don't get into using opiates now, it will destroy your life.

jaz

[DesertEyes]

The problem with _both_ anti-deps and pain killers is _not_ in the drugs. It's in the fact the everybody reacts differently. Just in this short little thread you can see the wide differences in people. _All_ of these meds have to be taken very carefuly, with the close attention of a _good_ doctor. For people that find these meds helpful, they are wonderful. For other people they are not.

Yours truly reacts very badly to one particular chemical that most people in the world have no trouble with. Sugar. There's nothing wrong with sugar, I just have a sick pancreas. It's the same with meds. Some people have no problem with them, and some people have a terrible reaction.

Mike

[Latte]

Antidepressants are a cra* shoot. I have gone on and off of head meds, they all have side effects, it just depends on if you can tolerate them. I'm going off my latest one because I am having weight control issues which are affecting my bones and joints.

Tylenol 3 is addictive. As a recovering pain pill addict it isn't worth it. I've had a heck of a time letting my brain repair itself after being clean, even for over a year. I spent three months, despite a good antidepressant, very very depressed. I've taken one or two pills since getting clean because of surgery and I will only take them in a hospital (I never take pills home), one because I am an addict, 2 because the depression sucks. I don't want to be that depressed ever again.

I wish you luck in your quest for treatment for depression.

[barb dwyer]

Latte made a good point.
I listened to a radio show that the Editor in Chief of JAMA (Journal of American Medicine) said that if you start prescribing antidepressants - you literally just throw a dart at the lits and keep going.

They don't any more know ...
how an individual is going to react to any certain drug or the other ...
any better than we do.

Which personally - made *me* feel a whole lot better.I just wish *I* could find a two hundred an hour job where I don't have to know what's going to happen, but am guaranteed to not be liable for whatever result occurs.
And continue to wax my angst about the whole thing ...
at the country club.

Seems to be a good gig, if you can find it.

For me personally -
it was pain causing my problems ...
not depression.
Depression ... came AFTER the pain.
So for me ...
getting the pain out of the way -
well, down to a dull roar, anyhow...
cancelled out all the other stuff.

I agree with Desert Eyes too about the whole 'euphoria' thing.

This is a good thread for someone who is *still* having problems getting
my head wrapped atround the whole seratonin/dopamine/whatever chemistry.

[Mercedes1]

Latte, first LOVED the "head meds"..analogy..funny. And I also loved the comic in you signature about coffee being drug of choice..I had to laugh.

Anyway, can you please elaborate on the depression side of the pain pill addiction you say you had. What exactly is the effects that you went through that "are not worth it>?

I guess I am not clear on the bad side effects that make pain pill addiction so hideous outside of taking 20 a day...I have seen people at meetings so wigged out..literally eyes back in their foreheads, shacking, jittery, can't finish a sentence...those people are clearly going through hell. But they also are taking mass amounts a day. They take them to "leave town" so to speak.

I do get a reaction like an anti-depressent on these Tylenol 3. I have purposely limited to 2...I am on a prescription (sick again last week) ...and I WAS sick..saw the doctor, blisters in throat the whole ball of wax. However I am starting to feel better and the 2 I took today..however uneventful last week as I couldnt swallow now I feel the "high" kind of.

But it is so pleasant ...it is unnoticeable to others. I just am "happy". I feel good...I read more today, did more housework, prayed more, walked...just over all. How can that not be a good anti-depressent.

And then also what is a good anti depressent? If it doesnt make you feel better then what good is it. to not go down more? My depressions are more I have no energy. Don't feel like doing housework, have to force myself to get out of bed.

But I function .. Have been for 47 years. I am not (thank God) suicidal but can say the last couple times I relapsed (on alchohol) it was because I was depressed.. I didn't care.


What is a good anti-depressent. I can't afford to be heavy in spirit, tired, insomniac, paranoid...nasueaus..which is what the others were.

and, anti-depre are no angels. I am scared to death on their withdrawals...hallucinations, paranoia, severe depression (which many people feel it is there initial depression which in fact it is CAUSED by withdawals)..perpetual addiciton to the anit-dep's are a result...you can't go off for fear of the withdrawals..minuz well stay on them.

When I did finish my last prescription ..eventually runs out..I did feel depressed so interested in your analogy on that.

I can see me feeling "more" depressed but I thought it was because I was comparing to no pill..which obviously maybe making more of it then should But after 2 weeks I really became depressed..

So what anit-dep should I find and what should I expect on nothing? I tried nothing ..but after 5.5.months sober I started getting sick alot..I didnt ask to take these tylenol 3's but since I hate to go back to just being "depressed" sober.

[kmsj75]

"But it is so pleasant ...it is unnoticeable to others. I just am "happy". I feel good...I read more today, did more housework, prayed more, walked...just over all. How can that not be a good anti-depressent."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is exactly how I felt when I was in the beginning stages of my addiction to Hydrocodone. I WAS HIGH. Honestly, I would be very scared if I were taking something that made me feel that way, and had plans to continue it. IMO I would definitely be on the road to relapse, if I wasn't there already.

Mercedes1- question: If people take anti-depressants as directed and get "addicted," is it not possible for someone to take Tylenol#3 as prescribed and become addicted?

I was on Klonopin (a benzo) as prescribed, and promptly had seizures when I tried to go off of it. It ended up being a horrible, three-month long process. Our bodies do not know that we are taking things "as prescribed."

[Mercedes1]

Kim, my definition of "high" is just that...high above norm... I have had certain medications make me that way and I know this for a few reasons:

1) I immediately notice my mouth is moving faster than people can handle..they look at me strange..my energy, tone is "too happy" for them. They look at you like something is not quite right. I feel happy but not "real" in terms of where I should be. I did NOT feel this way on the tylenol.

2) I get convicted..something about the experience I notice not right..I am up all night...want to do things out of the norm..that I "know" the big picture can't keep up with..wanting to read a book at 2:00a ..I mean I "get up" to go read it...I don't even read that much in day time when I am awake and have the time..I have to force myself to read.

3) I immediately feel the "coming down"..because I was high..fairly obvious. I start to get a head ache..sick to my stomache..feel depressed I am not myself.


Now, tylenol is not my drug of choice for life..I get that..I am just using that drug as a description to make a point on the anti-depress's vs. pain killer method or better put..another drug. If (for me) taking a tylenol 3 is better .."If the benefits outweight the side effects and makes your life better than off of it then that is what is right for you"...my DOCTOR told me that on the anti-depressents... So I am not addicted (yet) to anything just describing and experience and questioning why I can't just take something like this instead of an anti-depress or stay the way I am..taking nothing. Am I even depressed or just lazy?


What is the difference then of an anti-depressent? Over all it makes one tired and feel like hell the most part ..how many times have I heard..give it time. takes 3/4 months..well if my body is a train wrech the first 3 months..goes to say all the 3/4 months will do once I get there is I "get used to the abuse". Then its obvious when I stop my body willl react. The negative anti-depress "process" is no different than a badly addicted person withdrawing from a pain killer. Only the pain killer is a no no from the get go..but an anti-depress comes with blessings from the medical community??

So that is my point..if the effects of a tylenol can effect me the same as anti-depress only "gentler" with no train wreck process..then what is the difference. A doctor prescribes one and the other is a "no no". Side effect "rules" are the same (if the benefits outweight...blah blah). Drawbooks are the same (you may need more or lose the effect over time, withdrawal may come into play)... Addictions are the same - once addicted ..who cares what it is.


Lastly, what do you suggest? Nothing. What is nothing anyway..is it normal depression I am having..laziness I don't feel like getting out of bed or taking a shower some times..what is normal and what constitutes a "chemical inbalance".

Doctors are not the right answer..most of them don't know. I am a firm believer at least the ones I have don't have a clue..its trial and error.

[shockozulu]

Mercedes1, it reads to me that you are spending a lot of time justifying using this drug.

This medication in not an antidepressant, in fact opiods are "depressants".

If I were to try Meth I have a good feeling I would be able to get more done when I start using. I bet I'd be a lot more happy and productive at my job the first few weeks of using. I wouldn't feel lazy anymore, I'd be going out all the time.

Does that make Meth an antidepressant? No, it doesn't. It means I am treating the symptoms of my depression and not the disease. Eventually, addiction will take over again. This time with a new drug.

A doctor prescribes one and the other is a "no no". Side effects are the same. Drawbooks are the same. Addictions are the same.

Doctors prescribe both where I live, and they prescribe the drugs that treat the illness. There is a reason programs, both secular and 12 step, don't encourage members to take drugs "off label". Doctors and pharmacists do know better. They spent many years in school studying the body. Not all doctors are perfect, some outright are horrible, but we can always go see another to get treatment in proportion to our illness.

Addictions are not the same, BTW. You do not get "addicted" to antidepressants. You may become dependent but that is very different. One can become dependent on many types of medication, including asthma inhalers. That is not addiction. When I taper off my antidepressants or inhaler I don't crave more nor do I justify using them. Its a big difference.

[kmsj75]

Mercedes1...It sounds like your mind is made up about what you want to do. I'm not sure (but there's always a chance) that you'll find someone to tell you it's "ok" here. I was reading some of your other posts, and I know you wrote about having had a recent relapse. Perhaps this is a continuation of the insane thinking?

I'm not trying to be harsh, think of it as one addict looking after another. I wish you the best and am glad you have found SR to help you along the way.

[Mercedes1]

Thanks guys...I did have a relapse. And I was inbetween my illness which I have had since I started recovery...every so many months I get an outbreak of my tonsils, fever, the works..hense my intro to Tylenol. However I must admit that when I was in Florida on vaca which is where my relapse happened it crossed my mind that if I could take some tylenol ..all of 2 I would have gotten out of the mood/depression I had and would have been ok.

People on anti-dep have an edge..I guess I was ANGRY that I didnt have anything and I was really and i mean REALLY CONFUSED if I need something or not.

Am I depressed or just lazy...or both but none to take a drug. I have never taken street drugs or prescription to get "high"..but it did appear I was craving the tylenol at least in that moment.

So I guess I am trying to justify if I should take something or just let it be.

I have tried the doctor route..the last therapist I attempted was a complete wack job. they are disingenous.

People in AA unless I can truly relate are all anti- everything. I am not that extreme.

I'll just leave it. I still am confused.

[Mercedes1]

Btw, when I was first introduced to anit-depressents the goal was to help you through the edge of alchohol...which IMHO the tylenol would have done. If that would have been a relapse it compltelty does not compare to when I drank the alchohol. The tylenol would have changed my mood only..not made my mind drunk or body a wreck.

anywya, enough said..Im glad you guys are honest...I don't want BS. I want honesty. I just am confused..not trying to justify. But I will not use tylenol any more than prescribed.

Just trying to find the antidepe to work or just deal with being me on nothing.

[lizw]

A recovery friend of mine called last night, who has on going chronic pain in her back, and she'd just been at the chronic pain clinic at our local hospital.
(Note: I live in New Zealand not America)

They gave her the bad news, which if you haven't heard it yet you may want to miss out this para, that being chances are her back is never going to get better because nothing is obviously broken, out of place or is such that they can pin piont what's wrong - they said it is probably to do with muscles and nerves etc...so the rest of her life she is probably going to have to take painkillers of some kind, which she is not happy about, but I suspect she'll eventually accept it.

I'm not a doctor, neither have I had years of medical training, however what I could tell her was that if she was open and honest about what medication she is taking, and the effects it is having on her, she'll probably be alright.

I think addiction isn't just about the chemical we are putting into our body, except maybe herion. I've never met anyone at a meeting yet who took over the counter pain medication or meds, as perscribed by their doctor, then went off and robbed a shop so they could get more. Or took one of these kinds of pills, then rushed off to the chemist before it closed to buy more so they didn't run out.

In August 2007, when I had my last serious MS lapse and couldn't walk, my choice was take steriods, or ride it out. And I was not in a postion to ride it out, as I have a daughter I take care of, so I took the steriods. Some of tthe side effects of these, is they make you 'high' as in speedy and they make you hungry. So I was rushing round, with my walking stick, and eating everything in sight. When the course finished, I didn't go back to the doctor and beg for more or anything. Neither do I think I have an 'addiction' to steriods. The side effects I expereinced are widely reported by most who take them, as steriods are the treatment for an MS flare. I don't recall having any kind of withdrawl from them either.

But say, I was a body builder, before recovery who abused steriods then of course I'd have to seriously look if I could take them or risk taking them in recovery.

I personally believe one can not think they are becoming addicted to something after a couple of weeks and NOT KNOW IT so for me, it is not about the actual drugs but about my motives and my actions - if I'm taking meds to get wasted then there is something seriously wrong with my recovery program.

I take 3 different types of medication a day for my MS and fibro, and I rarely think about taking more to get stoned, what I do tend to think is either:
A Selling them
B Taking them all, as in killing myself
And for me to be thinking this stuff, it is also an indication that something is wrong in my recovery program.

The big book of alcoholics anonymous says that for alcoholics 'drinking alcohol' was a symptom of our disease, I personally think it is the same with medication too .i.e. if we're eating the pills like their one of mums roasts, it's probably a good indication that something is seriously wrong with us, and that it needs changing.