"Those Goof Balls" by Bill W.

[Puddy]

Hello everyone, I have been in recovery for 6.5 years and had to change my sobriety date because of an addiction to prescription pain medication. I wondered if there was an "official word" by AA concerning narcotic pain medication prescribed by a physician. I was able to locate a reprint of a Grapevine article that Bill W. published in 1945 on the internet. Link is below.

There is some good info here - mainly what I took from it is the one line - "when medication is needed, don't let the alcoholic hold the bottle", meaning pharmacy bottle of medication. Pretty much sums it up. I held the bottle, I got loaded. And this was to the point of wishing for death and contemplating suicide on a daily basis for over a year. I never took a painkiller in my life until I was sober (because I had never injured myself, and also because in my opinion strong narcotics were not routinely prescribed until the mid 1990's - and all that took was a letter from the AMA to physicians urging them to treat pain more aggressively. I won't get into the whole capitalist-for-profit healthcare system we have, but you connect the dots).

It sucks to turn all your coins in over something that was completely avoidable. And it is avoidable - but it seems I can't go to 5 meetings anymore without someone standing up and saying "well I have to take this pain medication, my sponsor said to enjoy the freebie" and it just makes me wince. That's how it started for me. Dangerous, hazardous advice. Even if you have no drug addiction in your history, your body and mind will probably thoroughly enjoy being intoxicated again. And pain meds are the #1 cause of relapse back into active alcoholism or addiction. At least according to a friend of mine who has been a CDP and a treatment center counselor for 17 years.

I'm glad to be truly sober again and my only bit of advice for someone in recovery thinking of taking prescription pain medication is - if it's something like cancer pain or something really major, ok, as long as the Dr knows you are in recovery, and you have someone hold the bottle who knows what the shot is with you. Anything less than major, severe, chronic pain, trust me it's better to go through a few days or weeks or even months of mild to moderate pain than to suffer the pain of narcotic addiction.

ALSO - Prescription-strength 800 mg Ibuprofen (IBU-8) works as good as Vicodin at pain relief and will not get you high. Now that you know this, if you opt for the Vicodin now, you've chosen the Vicodin and you just busted through the starting gate in one hell of a crappy ride...

Just noticed they won't let me post a URL so just google "Those Goof Balls" Bill W. Alcoholics Anonymous and you'll find it. T

[nandm]

Originally Posted by Puddy

Hello everyone, I have been in recovery for 6.5 years and had to change my sobriety date because of an addiction to prescription pain medication. I wondered if there was an "official word" by AA concerning narcotic pain medication prescribed by a physician. I was able to locate a reprint of a Grapevine article that Bill W. published in 1945 on the internet.

AA's official stand is there is no official stand. The BB clearly states that there are times when people need outside help and it makes no discouragement of seeking that help. It does not specify only help that does not include medications.

Even if you have no drug addiction in your history, your body and mind will probably thoroughly enjoy being intoxicated again. And pain meds are the #1 cause of relapse back into active alcoholism or addiction. At least according to a friend of mine who has been a CDP and a treatment center counselor for 17 years.

Thank you for your opinion. Clearly though it is the opinion of both yourself and your friend. Remember opinions are many and quite varied. Just because one person says it is the Gospel truth does not make it so. Personally, my experience is not what yours was or is with medications. I have no way to know what the number one cause of relapse is except listening to people who come back to the rooms of AA after a relapse and 90% or more always state that the start of their relapse was when they stopped going to meetings not when they started taking pain meds. But that is just my experience and opinion just as yours is yours.

I'm glad to be truly sober again and my only bit of advice for someone in recovery thinking of taking prescription pain medication is - if it's something like cancer pain or something really major, ok, as long as the Dr knows you are in recovery, and you have someone hold the bottle who knows what the shot is with you. Anything less than major, severe, chronic pain, trust me it's better to go through a few days or weeks or even months of mild to moderate pain than to suffer the pain of narcotic addiction. ALSO - Prescription-strength 800 mg Ibuprofen (IBU-8) works as good as Vicodin at pain relief and will not get you high. Now that you know this, if you opt for the Vicodin now, you've chosen the Vicodin and you just busted through the starting gate in one hell of a crappy ride...

I am glad you made it back. I do understand your fear and concern regarding pain medications for yourself as obviously they were a serious problem for you. But please remember that is your experience not everyones. Mine is I have had pain medications prescribed off and on throughout my over 7 years sobriety. I even was put on a morphine drip at 6 months of sobriety and due to the fear you speak of demanded to be taken off it. That caused a delay in my healing as I could not work with physical therapy because I had no pain control. It took a doctor explaining the principle of managing the pain before it gets out of hand otherwise it is an uphilll battle to get the pain back under control. I have been a nurse for 20 years and it took that experience for me to understand that concept. As soon as I was able I reduced the medication to ibuprofen. But for the past two years I have been taking medication as needed for disc pain due to a car accident. I do not consider myself any less sober because of it. I take the medication as prescribed. Try non medication treatments first, and then take the pain med when I absolutely have to. Please remember some people can not take Ibuprofen on a regular basis. I developed drug induced hepatitis in recovery because I tried to manage my back pain with just muscle relaxers and ibuprofen. It damaged my liver. So today I have to be extremely careful about when and how much tylenol or ibuprofen I take. I encourage anyone who is in recovery to be sure to discuss with their doctor taking any over the counter medication especially ibuprofen due to the liver implications. By the way, this is just my experience but I was not and am not able to take vicodin as the side effect for me is suicidal ideations. So that does not leave a lot of pain med options for me. I also make sure that I am honest with my doctor, she knows I am a recovering alcoholic, she has me come in to get my refills where we discuss options for pain relief, I get a 30 day supply at a time and most of the time that lasts me 2 - 4 months. I realize not everyone will deal with medications the way I do. Drugs were never an issue for me, I was afraid of them and their side effects. Plus they interferred with my drinking. Personally, I would rather not take any today but I realize that taking them and working the 12 steps is what keeps my life manageable. I do try to remember not everyone is like me, some people can not handle any medications put in front of them. For those people I would suggest having someone handle those meds for you and trying every other alternative.

I also have never found any "high" associated with any of these meds. By the way some people claim to get "high" from anti-depressants. Not something I have ever experienced. Anti-depressants are what balance the chemicals in my brain out to a normal level.

[Dee74]

Thanks for making a lot of the points I would have made Judith
Lot of opinions, low on facts here Puddy

D

[JoeJ]

It's good to hear that you've got yourself set straight puddy ^_^

There is a lot of old school resistance to pain meds for a reason, as my dad always told me. Don't be offended if people go after you about it, people have different ways of being sober/clean and will of course disagree. As long as it helps YOU. My dad smashed both of his feet, to the point that they were practically bean bags. Around this time he started drinking again and they had him on a whole array of pain meds, ending up on oxy. He soon needed more than he was getting, and wound up on heroin. On the streets.

DONT JUMP ON ME ANYONE! I know thats not every case blah blah blah. It happens, and it is wise to avoid pain meds WHEN YOU CAN.

My dad isn't supposed to be able to walk or work in constuction, he does both. He is also 6 years clean now, doesn't take a damn thing for his feet (which are getting worse and the left one will eventually get amputated most likely) besides tylonal.

(I'm going to say 'you' a lot, that means anyone)

If you're willing to live with discmfort, you don't need to take anything. Then again, its up to your own inclination. My dad's a hardcore guy, you may not be able to do that and pain meds may be necessary. Myself, I probably wouldn't do that. But don't let anybody tell you you can't! My dad's feet are held together by bone fusion and metal screws, and he made a choice not to take any.

I don't see whats wrong with saying that pain meds should be avoided if possible.

[lizw]

AA's stand on medication is detailed in a phamplet called something like "AA members and medication" or "AA members and other drugs".
It's avail from your GSO.

[Dee74]

I don't like sweeping generalisations. Sue me LOL.

My own POV - for me - is actually pretty close to Puddys, and yours Joe - but what gives me, or anyone, the right to make sweeping generalisations and put down guidelines for someone else?

What's the AA saying? 'keep your own side of the street clean?"

D

[serenityqueen]

I'd like to thank Puddy for sharing his concerns that others may or may not have a similar experience. I do know more than a few people in AA who became addicted to their pain meds, just as I know several who have not had a problem with taking them as prescribed. However, this forum is not designed to state whether someone is considered to be in Recovery or not when taking prescribed medications.

I have severe pain issues and for me, since my DOC is opiates, I choose not to risk it today. Who knows, down the road as my joints continue to deteoriate due to RA and Lupus, I may have to reconsider when the pain gets too be too excrutiating. But for now, I take anti inflammatories along with medications to treat the diseases, not merely the symptoms. But then there are also some painful disorders that there are no medications or surgeries that are able to treat the disease.

Do I envy people such as nandm? Sure! I wish I could take opiates as directed but I know I can't so I'm not going to take that chance. For me to do that, would be like in the days of the Wild West where shots of whiskey were "prescribed" for pain. Would someone who's DOC is whiskey feel comfortable with that? I doubt it.

Everything I have stated here is my opinion . . . and we all know what opinions are like, a$$holes, everyone has one.

By the way, I think this is a wonderful new forum for people such as myself who share these concerns in their Recovery.

God Bless and thanks for letting me share MY OPINION!

Judy

[lizw]

Is, I am quite sure, the message that the AA phamplet contains regarding medication. Everyone has to decide for themselves.

However at the same time it also suggests it is not a good idea to stop drinking then replace it with smoking pot etc... From memory the phamplet contains various members ESH with taking medication.

When I was first diagnosed with MS, one of the meds they put me on made me stoned because the dose was too high but the doc said that may happen and that it could take a week for my body/mind to adjust to it.

However after a week, I went back to the doctors and told him it hadn't past because I knew it wasn't good for me, and I have no desire to live my life stoned anymore just like I have no desire to drink today.

The doc suggested that maybe "we could try increasing the dose gradually" which we did and it was fine. Strangely enough tho, I had to come off those meds as they ended up giving me hallucinations after 5 months, and another friend of mine with similar health problems recently had the same experience with them.

My own crazy thoughts round my medication seem to be:
1. I'll sell it (not that I know anyone to sell it to these days)
2. I'll take it all, as in kill myself
I don't think "I'll take enough to get out of it".

I think the good thing about recovery is everyones insanity is different and taylor made. We just have to identify what fits us then take the steps to safe guard ourselves.

This place is fab! I been sick for nearly 2 years and have never had the chance to "talk and listen" so much about it.

Cheers guys/gals!

[jazpoppy]

Puddy;

Glad you posted here on our Recovery and Pain Management Thread. But, I have to disagree with your broad generalization "You can't say all things about all people" and don't misconstrue this as terminal uniqueness. Remember, some are sicker than others. Unless you are a medical doctor, you don't have the expertise to judge other people's chronic pain and recovery issues in general. I agree that being in recovery and being a chronic pain patient is double-trouble, but it can be managed properly by a good physician or team of physicians. To say that if someone takes a prescription for Vicodin and doesn't demand that the doctor give them only Ibuprofen 800 (which does work well for some, but not all, and it can be dangerous for people with stomach problems such as ulcers, liver problems, and kidney problems) doesn't mean that the person is seeking a HIGH. They could simply be in very significant acute pain at the time and may actually need Vicodin to help them cope with the severity of the pain situation. Sometimes people can have heart attacks from uncontrolled severe pain and require narcotic pain medication (especially someone with a weak heart to begin with). Also, everyone has a different level of pain tolerance. One person with a broken ankle may feel mildly to moderately uncomfortable, while someone else with the same type of ankle break may feel severely uncomfortable, and may even through up or pass out from the pain. Everyone responds to pain differently. This is your account of what happened to you while using pain medication to control a (chronic or semi-chronic) pain condition. You were not able to control yourself. Someone else may be an alcoholic like you and be perfectly able to take vicodin (or percoset) without ANY trouble. My mother is an alcoholic, but she HATES the way pain medication makes her feel, so she will only take her medication when she's in agony and it sits in a locked box in her home untouched unless she needs it. So instead of saying "Try not to take narcotic pain medication by all means if you find yourself injured and the doctor is offering pain medication." Just because an ER doctor thinks you need 20 vicodin for your injury doesn't mean you really do, its a judgement you need to make on your own, are you really in that much pain, because if you're not and you have never or rarely ever do take narcotic pain medication, you may not have to. I would tell someone "If you are in a lot of pain, be honest with yourself and close your eyes, can you think about other things and get your mind off the pain. If you can get your mind off the pain, can you keep your mind off the pain long enough to do some task? If yes, then you may only need motrin or tylenol. If not, then you may need to take the narcotic to help with pain. Having a sponsor or family member hold the medication is a great idea so thanks for that. I just want you to know, puddy, I am not picking on you. I am just giving my OPINION on what your opinion. Thanks.

Jaz

[ksos]

I had the eerie feeling that an article denouncing the appropriate use of pain medication could not have and would not have come from Bill W., and sure enough, Puddy's interpretation of the article and subsequent transmission of it, are inaccurate, baseless, and without merit.

Bill W. speaks to the physician being responsible enough to understand the pre-existing condition of his patient before erroneously prescribing sedative hypnotics, namely chloryl hydrate and seconol. While morphine and codeine were briefly mentioned in the initial paragraph, the thrust of Bill's writing in this article, had absolutely nothing to do with the collaborative pain management techniques that are used today by specialists in this forum of medicine, nor are applicable whatsoever in the patient's role as a partner in this process.

As a pain management discussion, this is not the article one should use to bolster their own feelings that "800 mg of Advil is equal to...Vicodin." The latter statement is subjective, biased, and is part of another agenda that Bill W. never discussed, at least. in the text cited. At best, the original poster attempted to post an argument that "sobriety" entails forfeiting the effective and medically indicated palliative care that so many pain management patients have the basic right to be treated for. At worst, however, the original poster came very close to committing the most basic form of heresy; that is, the attributing to another, outright duplicitious content to a man's published words for the purposes of furthering one's own riduculous soapbix stance.

In this writer's view, there is more danger in not addressing this form of distortion than simply allowing it to stand unaddressed. Once again, it must be noted that no one in that 1945 article, including Bill W., ever made the suggestion that any patient evaluated as suffering from pain, should be denied treatment for such condition. To believe that these archaic, primitive, and sadistic thoughts came from such a great man, a man who, as the founder of a group which has saved countless millions from the devastation, misery, and death caused by the disease of alcoholism, would simply stamp out any of the advancements society and civilization has made in alcoholism, substance abuse treatment and prevention, as well as effective and necessary pain management treatment in the last 65 years.

[tiburon88]

800mg of ibprofin does not relieve acute pain as good as Vicadin. I personally can handle pain killers okay but Valium is a different story.

[ksos]

Originally Posted by tiburon88

800mg of ibprofin does not relieve acute pain as good as Vicadin. I personally can handle pain killers okay but Valium is a different story.

As an aside, Prescription-strength 800 mg Ibuprofen was found to be the cause of my chronic pancreatitis. I used to take this medication in leiu of any other medication, primarily based on my fear of narcotics and my own propensity to abuse them. Unfortunately for me, my own ignorance of more effective pain interventions, have now resulted in my inability to work, to enjoy my life, or to even walk more than one city block to a grocery store.

I am pleased to say that the medical community as well as addictionologists, those with whom are completely familiar with my own recovery and past problems with narcotic abuse, have both fully endorsed the use of narcotic pain management via a controlled morphine pump--a method, by the way, will prohibit me from increasing the amount of narcotic into my bloodstream. I am awaiting my admission date, for I have been informed that this mechanism will allow me to resume work, allieviate my pain to the point where I can expect to participate in fitness activities, and, most importantly, live a life that is worth living.

NSAIDS, like Motrin, Naproxin, VIOXX, and the many others that exist, are so often hailed as the cure-all for pain from unknowing sources. If truth be told, many hundreds, if not thousands of people have died from overconsumption of these pills which, are far from safe. It is extremely careless to even prescribe this type of medication for simple pain unless you are an MD or one with medical training, as many people have sensitivity to this class of medication and would suffer symptoms ranging from a skin rash to heart attack.

I am an NA and AA proponent. I attend 2 meetings a day and try to post here as much as I can. I have a sponsor. However, when published text is taken so out of context as to feed some obscure need of someone to be "right", than I feel compelled to address it as soon as possible.

[Dee74]

I take your point ksos...but I'd never look to Bill W on advice or sanction on pain management anyway
LOL

D

[JoeJ]

This thread is the straw that broke my metaphorical camel's back, this place is way too toxic for me to stay on. This site has a lot of people that are true angels, and I love all of them (you know who you are).

BUT, there's way too much biased bickering and highly defensive overreaction on these boards to accomplish much more than arguing. Granted, in about two threads that I can think of, including this one, I allowed myself to get sucked in along with everyone else. I'm a natural arguer, so all this negativity going back and forth is especially unhealthy for me and my very fragile will to be clean.

At this point, aside from the chat room here, I'd rather have nothing to help me at all. Thankfully I have real life meetings to go to when I gather the courage, amazing people from here and other sites that I maintain contact with via email, and websites that I don't find myself getting angry over every time I log on.

Please understand, this isn't a slight against the people who I disagree with, this argument (and the many, many others) is just a symptom of a larger problem. When people are almost getting FLAMED on a sobriety forum just for voicing an opinion, there's something fundamentally broken.

When I came on here a week or two ago, tweaking my guts out and thinking I was going to die (still using, but getting a little better mentally minute by minute and getting prepared to take the plunge into cleanness), this community probably saved my life, as I was totally lost and sort of wanting to die. But once you're no longer on the brink of death, SR gets much more harsh.

I'm not going to list every one of the things I think are wrong with this place, because it's not my place to do so, I think that at least for now, I'm done stressing over this sight. Maybe I'll come back another time, but right now, I'm not getting anything positive from this place. This thread is just an example that I thought would be as good a place as any to post this in.

I know I'm barely known on here, and that I won't be missed by too many people, but I thought that maybe this could serve as a wake up call to this community. You are scaring people away from a forum whose topic is of a very serious and life threatening nature.

Good luck to each and every one of you, and I meant nothing personal to anyone.

[Aa_vark]

joe clear some space in your PM box, i tried to PM you, and youre full

[nandm]

Joe, I am truly sorry that you feel the way your post says you feel about SR. I do wish you the best on your continued sobriety.

A discussion forum is just that, a forum for discussion. When things get personal moderators step in and try to defuse the situation or close the thread as needed. I have failed to see the negativity and flaming that you have described, Joe. Rather I have seen some good points both for and against medication use in recovery. Discussions are not about arguing they are about learning and sharing.

[Dee74]

Joe

I've liked your posts, and your attitude, even if we haven't always agreed.

I've seen you on a few forums here - like nan I haven't seen anything IMO excessive - certainly nowhere near the worst I've had occasion to see here.

I hope noone is scared away - I was actually thinking the atmosphere has been less combative recently...

Discussion and an exchange of views - and I guess disagreement sometimes - is what places like this run on. No-one gets to hear your view if you're not here. I hope you reconsider.

D

[ksos]

Originally Posted by Dee74

I take your point ksos...but I'd never look to Bill W on advice or sanction on pain management anyway
LOL

D

Dee...

I have to agree with you on that one...I tried to think of a clever and witty analogy, like "It is sort of like asking Mobil for a $3.00 discount on gasoline for the next week or so...", but I think your point stands on its own merit!

LOL!

[ksos]

Joe...

I do not know you, but I am a person who does care if this particular forum or this specific thread is viewed as toxic. I have to agree with nandm and Dee74 that I do not see any examples of:

"too much biased bickering and highly defensive overreaction on these boards to accomplish much more than arguing."

I also want to echo Dee74's words that come from the heart, which is that I hope you do reconsider leaving this forum and stay on. Positive change in a new forum such as this one, can only occur if members are willing to communicate with each other.

Without being deemed paranoid, I need to say that I am probably the main "straw" on this thread that broke the camel's back, as I was quite energized by someone's interpretation of a published article, as well as my own very personal struggle with coming to grips with a quality of life decision and the concept of Recovery.

However, it seems to me that, by virtue of its very essence, meaning the actual name of the forum, Recovery and Pain Management, would, eventually need to touch upon this particular topic. It is controversial, has many points of views, and, like Politics, can elicit a litany of emotions. I know that the topic did rouse me, and I admittedly responded quite aggressively to it. Nevertheless, my intentions were certainly not meant to flame on a particular person. If I did cross the line at all, I am very sorry.

I certainly did not mean to harm or drive anyone away from here, as this forum and all of its members, happen to hold a very special place in my heart and soul. If I have offended you or anyone, I deeply apologize to you, Joe.

I would welcome the opportunity to further clear the air via private message, if you would be willing. It means a lot to me if I was part of something toxic that is driving you away from here.


Ksos

[frstnm]

I went to the hospital in 93 6 months clean and sober. I had quit coke so I thought I wasnt an addict. I came out of the hospital a complete pain killer JUNKIE. They eventually shut me off cold turkey and I picked up every drug short of heroin and needles. I have also played w benzos. At this point I dont think I can have in my possession ANY narcotic or benzo as I WILL abuse them. I am an alcoholic AND an addict. I now have 9 months of complete sobriety and my life has turned around more than I could have ever imagined.

[Morning Glory]

We are not here to offer treatment plans to others in recovery. Each person needs to consult with their physician for a treatment plan for pain management.

Puddy's post can be considered medical advice because it suggests a treatment plan for pain management so I'm closing the thread.