Difficulty understanding the AA "12 steps".
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I guess I am baffled, Sapling. You are claiming that it would be wrong to prevent people from explaining how 12-step recovery worked for them. I think a reading of the thread would show that is simply not true. No one is preventing anyone from saying such things--in fact, many people ARE explaining how it worked for them. AND THEY SHOULD!!!!
But just as it would be wrong for anyone to prevent them from sharing their success in 12-step recovery, it is equally wrong to prevent people from sharing their success in other kinds of recovery. You yourself say that you are sharing what saved your life--but are criticizing others for doing the same.
Again, my experience was that I spent a lot of time trying to understand 12-step recovery. I wish that someone had pointed out to me that there was no need to bash my head against the wall. That there was hope for me even if I never came to understand the 12 steps. I suspect you think that this is "bashing" to say that. But it is not. It is not a bash at any recovery program to say that it does not work for each and every person. No program or treatment for any disease works in every case--ask your doctor!
I think the original poster and others reading this thread are adults and will look at every post presented here and make his own decisions. None of us, need to decide what he and other people should or should not read. You say you avoid reading certain threads, which I do not really understand. Isn't the whole point of a site like this to learn about other points of view and to hear ideas contrary to your own?
Part of the reason I feel comfortable recommending AA is because of reading here from people whose experience was different from mine. If responses to my posts and other I read were limited, I would not have learned that there were people who truly found recovery and spiritual growth in that program.
This has gotten larger than the thread topic, but at base I think it does relate. How do we come to understand ANYTHING? Isn't it by relating different ideas to each other? I feel like I understand the 12-steps better because of what m1k3 said connecting the 12-steps with Buddhist ideas. I am sure others feel the same way. (Next time I recommend AA, I will probably draw on what m1k3 said.)
What purpose would it serve to exclude his comments? That would promote orthodoxy, not understanding.
But just as it would be wrong for anyone to prevent them from sharing their success in 12-step recovery, it is equally wrong to prevent people from sharing their success in other kinds of recovery. You yourself say that you are sharing what saved your life--but are criticizing others for doing the same.
Again, my experience was that I spent a lot of time trying to understand 12-step recovery. I wish that someone had pointed out to me that there was no need to bash my head against the wall. That there was hope for me even if I never came to understand the 12 steps. I suspect you think that this is "bashing" to say that. But it is not. It is not a bash at any recovery program to say that it does not work for each and every person. No program or treatment for any disease works in every case--ask your doctor!
I think the original poster and others reading this thread are adults and will look at every post presented here and make his own decisions. None of us, need to decide what he and other people should or should not read. You say you avoid reading certain threads, which I do not really understand. Isn't the whole point of a site like this to learn about other points of view and to hear ideas contrary to your own?
Part of the reason I feel comfortable recommending AA is because of reading here from people whose experience was different from mine. If responses to my posts and other I read were limited, I would not have learned that there were people who truly found recovery and spiritual growth in that program.
This has gotten larger than the thread topic, but at base I think it does relate. How do we come to understand ANYTHING? Isn't it by relating different ideas to each other? I feel like I understand the 12-steps better because of what m1k3 said connecting the 12-steps with Buddhist ideas. I am sure others feel the same way. (Next time I recommend AA, I will probably draw on what m1k3 said.)
What purpose would it serve to exclude his comments? That would promote orthodoxy, not understanding.
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Originally Posted by miamifella 
I think many of us are sharing here because we also had "Difficulty understanding the AA '12 steps'." Our experience led us away from 12-step programs.
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Originally Posted by Zencat
To believe alcohol has some kind of mystical property that causes me to drink outside of my awareness is to far fetched for even my vivid imagination to grasp. I can equate powerlessness to ignorance and relate on that level.
I do think I'm helpful to people here....I try. I've steered people to AVRT and I don't even know what it is. But I think some of this stuff you people post is uncalled for. Here is a guy trying to understand the first step of AA...Which took me awhile to figure out....I was still hurting then. I'm glad I worked my steps before I had to read this stuff. I'll leave it at that. And wish you the best on your journey.
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Originally Posted by Sapling
I do think I'm helpful to people here....I try. I've steered people to AVRT and I don't even know what it is. But I think some of this stuff you people post is uncalled for. Here is a guy trying to understand the first step of AA...Which took me awhile to figure out....I was still hurting then. I'm glad I worked my steps before I had to read this stuff. I'll leave it at that. And wish you the best on your journey.
I'm here on this thread to reply to the OP. I share my insight and experience with the OP. If you have issues with me, why not message me?
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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I think if we want to discuss how to work the 12 steps of AA, specifically and completely, that's gonna have to happen in the 12 step section of SR. That is how it should be. Some of it is counterintuitive...at first... And there are many paradoxes, surrender to win, for example... And all is not what it seems.
The OP for example, has a hard time "understanding" this idea of powerlessness... My perception is that he finds that idea counterproductive and, perhaps, insulting or demeaning or stigmatizing or something offensive or at least not an idea he wishes to imbrace... That is my perception, and, if I am wrong, I apologize, and hopefully he'll be along to correct me... I perceive that.... what he really doesn't understand is why a person would admit powerlessness and what possible good would come of that.
Many here are not powerless, or choose not be, and have no intention of admitting such a thing. And they are sober and happy and they can offer their experience with that and that's awesome, truly... And, I have no idea where in the AA, Big Book and all, spectrum of hard drinker - alcoholic they fall, just as they have no idea where I do.
Also there is this higher power thing... God, if you will. The OP is not a believer. Full Stop. Several in this thread have offered their experience with spirituality and reconciling that with their own atheism or agnosticism... Again, truly awesome and I sincerely hope they continue offering that experience. m1k3, for example, has found a spiritual place to exist and is happily recovered and I enjoyed and benefited from reading his experience, just as I hope the OP did.
There is a lot of good stuff here. I have really been grateful and fortunate to be a part of SR. I come and read everyday, and I guess I post too, LOL, maybe too often, LOL...There are certain places I do not go, partly because of time and partly because I have no business there...
Relax. Nobody has nothing they have to prove. Why should someone else's experience bother me? On the contrary, hearing their experience helps me, more than you know.
The OP for example, has a hard time "understanding" this idea of powerlessness... My perception is that he finds that idea counterproductive and, perhaps, insulting or demeaning or stigmatizing or something offensive or at least not an idea he wishes to imbrace... That is my perception, and, if I am wrong, I apologize, and hopefully he'll be along to correct me... I perceive that.... what he really doesn't understand is why a person would admit powerlessness and what possible good would come of that.
Many here are not powerless, or choose not be, and have no intention of admitting such a thing. And they are sober and happy and they can offer their experience with that and that's awesome, truly... And, I have no idea where in the AA, Big Book and all, spectrum of hard drinker - alcoholic they fall, just as they have no idea where I do.
Also there is this higher power thing... God, if you will. The OP is not a believer. Full Stop. Several in this thread have offered their experience with spirituality and reconciling that with their own atheism or agnosticism... Again, truly awesome and I sincerely hope they continue offering that experience. m1k3, for example, has found a spiritual place to exist and is happily recovered and I enjoyed and benefited from reading his experience, just as I hope the OP did.
There is a lot of good stuff here. I have really been grateful and fortunate to be a part of SR. I come and read everyday, and I guess I post too, LOL, maybe too often, LOL...There are certain places I do not go, partly because of time and partly because I have no business there...
Relax. Nobody has nothing they have to prove. Why should someone else's experience bother me? On the contrary, hearing their experience helps me, more than you know.
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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Is your life unmanageable do you believe that alcohol is your boss. If so you are powerless over alcohol. Its as simple as that remember to keep it simple some can and some have to work at keeping life simple. God bless.
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Join Date: Mar 2012
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I think the "powerless" thing means that once you drink you can't stop? Not that you don't have the "power" to avoid the first drink. If you could stop then you would have "power" over it and be a "normal" drinker... which none of us will ever be.
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I do believe that addicts (whether addicted to drugs, alcohol, or behavior) are powerless. I could not control my desire to get high anymore than I could control my need for water.
For me, this led me to ask friends to help when I was trapped in the middle of cravings. I know this is frowned upon in 12-step recovery, but for me the realization that I needed actual hands-on help was an important discovery for me. Prayer and meditation did not work for me. I needed actual help from actual human people!
And I am so grateful to my friends who were there to help me. I know it must have been hard for them.
Again, I know this is not the 12-step understanding of this, but I am offering this not to bash the program, but to suggest a way into a concept which I think is one of the most significant contributions AA has made to recovery.
For me, this led me to ask friends to help when I was trapped in the middle of cravings. I know this is frowned upon in 12-step recovery, but for me the realization that I needed actual hands-on help was an important discovery for me. Prayer and meditation did not work for me. I needed actual help from actual human people!
And I am so grateful to my friends who were there to help me. I know it must have been hard for them.
Again, I know this is not the 12-step understanding of this, but I am offering this not to bash the program, but to suggest a way into a concept which I think is one of the most significant contributions AA has made to recovery.
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